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A little about my God

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
Your statement at the beginning is quite telling. In essence, you are saying that you see the afterlife as being more important than this life. Is this correct or incorrect?

Listen man, if you want to talk, than approach someone with in a different manner. I get that you are emotional about my thread, but going about a conversation the way you started is not the way to do it. I did not attack you at all.

Before, I answer your question, please answer mine. Do you have any children?
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
OK I get it, but there is a big difference between knowing humans die because we see it 200,000 times every 24 hours, and a universe that seems to be expanding forever.

Peace...
To those people who are dealing with fields of science which study periods that stretch in Biblical proportions, the difference has more unique angles.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Listen man, if you want to talk, than approach someone with in a different manner. I get that you are emotional about my thread, but going about a conversation the way you started is not the way to do it. I did not attack you at all.

Before, I answer your question, please answer mine. Do you have any children?
No. I'm not married, yet.

Do you believe that the afterlife is more important than this life?
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
No. I'm not married, yet.

Do you believe that the afterlife is more important than this life?

OK the day you lose your child, as I have, may be the day you begin to seriously consider the afterlife.

I don't need your sympothy for the loss of my infant, however my point is we are all on our own path. So spare me your limited understanding of my path, and get back on your own.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
OK the day you lose your child, as I have, may be the day you begin to seriously consider the afterlife.

I don't need your sympothy for the loss of my infant, however my point is we are all on our own path. So spare me your limited understanding of my path, and get back on your own.

I never said that there is no afterlife. I simply was criticizing your view that the afterlife is more important than this life here.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
:flirt:I think Thomas merton says it well:

It all comes back, in a sense, to the term “esoteric,” which has been widely misrepresented and misunderstood. The concept is a keystone of Schuon’s thought (and appears in the title of one of his chief stud­ies, Esoterism as Principle and as Way)., Using the symbol of a circle and its center-a formulation that Schuon also employs in his writ­ings-another leading traditionalist author, Martin Lings, has described how esoterism is actually the link between world religions:


My intelligence had never been able to accept the exclu­sivist idea that there is only one valid religion. But now it had learned and most readily accepted the truth that the great religions of the world, all of them equally Heaven-sent in accordance with the various needs of different sectors of humanity, can be graphically represented by points on the circumference of a circle, each point being connected with the center, that is, with God, by a radius. The points stand for the outward aspects of the religions, whereas each radius is the esoteric path which the religion in question offers to those who seek a direct way to God in this life, and who are capable of compliance with the demands of that way of sanctification, demands far more rigorous and exacting than those of the exoteric way of salvation.


The secret (or inner) does not negate or deny the open (or outer), which can at times even be said to surround it, contain it, protect it, albeit perhaps unwittingly. In specifically Islamic terms, the tarigah (Arabic for path or Way) does not replace the shart’ah (the law, the highly developed code of rules and regulations that consti­tutes Islam); both start with the same foundational guidelines. But at the same time, since the esoteric path is one where movement takes place inside the circle, its progress may not always be dis­cernible to those on the circumference.


The secret is furthermore not clandestine out of paranoia or some perverse predilection for elitist exclusivism, but because exposure and publicity always crudely compromise the message being pre­served. As with the meaning of a fairy tale, any attempt to expose the esoteric to the light of rational analysis spoils it forever, robs it of all its magical meaning: truth vanishes in a puff of smoke under such circumstances. Ripping the veil off a hidden or sacred symbol reveals nothing of the inner clarity of the representation in ques­tion, but only the naked hollowness of the vision of the viewer.



The straight path-spoken of as “al-Sirat al-Mustaqfm” in the fati­hah, the all-embracing opening verses of the Qur’an-of true Sufism thus never really strays outside the circumference of the circle; nor does it meander in and out of it. It heads steadily (and usually with great difficulty) toward the center. As with a traditional craftsman, a painter, ,or a pianist, years of training in technique are required before the seeker is allowed the grace of improvisation-usually only when the center is within reach.


This demanding or rigorous path is never easy or comfortable, nor is it egalitarian or democratic, accessible to all. It is an initiatic way, the traditionalists insist, one of direct experience which cannot be spoken of to outsiders, not because the listener “should not” be told about it, but because they would and could not recognize the vocab­ulary, and the very attempt to verbalize it would do far more harm than good for the cause of understanding.

–Merton and Sufism the Untold story Pgs. 198-200
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
I never said that there is no afterlife. I simply was criticizing your view that the afterlife is more important than this life here.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but your tone was very immature.

As far as your question goes, I reason that because I believe there is a God, and my God is immortal and eternal, than our life/death is a smaller part of the greater eternal.
Now, because I believe in this, it does not make me a drifter just waiting to die. I find tremendous joy and comfort in my studies of God, and time with my loved ones.
The fact is death is right around the corner. If I cling to this life and put as much credence as you do in it, I would just be setting myself up for a let down because I know it is VERY short here.

Your attempt to demonize my beliefs however is uncalled for and again very immature. Any other questions?
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
:flirt:I think Thomas merton says it well:

It all comes back, in a sense, to the term “esoteric,” which has been widely misrepresented and misunderstood. The concept is a keystone of Schuon’s thought (and appears in the title of one of his chief stud­ies, Esoterism as Principle and as Way)., Using the symbol of a circle and its center-a formulation that Schuon also employs in his writ­ings-another leading traditionalist author, Martin Lings, has described how esoterism is actually the link between world religions:


My intelligence had never been able to accept the exclu­sivist idea that there is only one valid religion. But now it had learned and most readily accepted the truth that the great religions of the world, all of them equally Heaven-sent in accordance with the various needs of different sectors of humanity, can be graphically represented by points on the circumference of a circle, each point being connected with the center, that is, with God, by a radius. The points stand for the outward aspects of the religions, whereas each radius is the esoteric path which the religion in question offers to those who seek a direct way to God in this life, and who are capable of compliance with the demands of that way of sanctification, demands far more rigorous and exacting than those of the exoteric way of salvation.


The secret (or inner) does not negate or deny the open (or outer), which can at times even be said to surround it, contain it, protect it, albeit perhaps unwittingly. In specifically Islamic terms, the tarigah (Arabic for path or Way) does not replace the shart’ah (the law, the highly developed code of rules and regulations that consti­tutes Islam); both start with the same foundational guidelines. But at the same time, since the esoteric path is one where movement takes place inside the circle, its progress may not always be dis­cernible to those on the circumference.


The secret is furthermore not clandestine out of paranoia or some perverse predilection for elitist exclusivism, but because exposure and publicity always crudely compromise the message being pre­served. As with the meaning of a fairy tale, any attempt to expose the esoteric to the light of rational analysis spoils it forever, robs it of all its magical meaning: truth vanishes in a puff of smoke under such circumstances. Ripping the veil off a hidden or sacred symbol reveals nothing of the inner clarity of the representation in ques­tion, but only the naked hollowness of the vision of the viewer.



The straight path-spoken of as “al-Sirat al-Mustaqfm” in the fati­hah, the all-embracing opening verses of the Qur’an-of true Sufism thus never really strays outside the circumference of the circle; nor does it meander in and out of it. It heads steadily (and usually with great difficulty) toward the center. As with a traditional craftsman, a painter, ,or a pianist, years of training in technique are required before the seeker is allowed the grace of improvisation-usually only when the center is within reach.


This demanding or rigorous path is never easy or comfortable, nor is it egalitarian or democratic, accessible to all. It is an initiatic way, the traditionalists insist, one of direct experience which cannot be spoken of to outsiders, not because the listener “should not” be told about it, but because they would and could not recognize the vocab­ulary, and the very attempt to verbalize it would do far more harm than good for the cause of understanding.

–Merton and Sufism the Untold story Pgs. 198-200

No offense, but it is very difficult to read words that don't originate from the author's mind on a forum. If I wanted to read extra curricular reading I would search the net. It is your mind that I am interested in. If you can condense what you posted I would love to look at it. If not, I understand.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
I never said that there is no afterlife. I simply was criticizing your view that the afterlife is more important than this life here.

Well, many christians "worship" death....

not life....

the focus is on death... Jesus' death, their own death, everyone's death, the entire universe's death.....

to lead to a better "place".....

Which has its pluses and minuses. Sadly these ideas in the hands of the small of thought cause rather silly actions, thoughts and practises.

:flirt: After all, everythign will be better when the anti christ comes, the jews all die and Jesus ushers in a new dawn....

:faint: I'm waiting for the body count , now!

One thing I do like about the UU church actually, like Gnostics, they focus on Jesus' LIFE, NOT his death....
 
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Circle_One

Well-Known Member
We all die, right?
Some old, some young.
Some feel pain, some don't.

What part of that equation gives anyone recourse to curse my God for the way He has chosen to do things?

If after your death, you can go to eternal bliss, why do you think on the finite things of this world as if they matter?

Our children, our loved ones, our enemies, all will die. Science never claimed to have the answers to these things. Science only claims to teach the observable and answer the finite riddles of the universe.

What is the hardest thing to understand about my God?

A little about my God:
My God created an existence for a certain people. Those people will hear His message. There will be many that don't hear his message. Doesn't really matter, both that hear and that don't hear will both die. Since the beginning God has been providing a way for his people to hear his message and find the path to life.
Part of His message is to tell us that we aren't really alive right now. In the sense that we are eternal. Right now we are part of a cycle, a growth. Some to eternal life and some to nothing or death.
His message is that to truly understand life, you have to understand true life is eternal. So what we are seeing now is only an illusion yet real at the same time.
I hope some of you understand this, but if anyone has questions or oppositions I'd like to know.


Now, before I continue to read through this thread, I just have something small to say concerning the OP.

Do you really want to know what the hardest thing to understand about your god is?

Why "certain" people?

He is supposed to love all "his children" equally, is he not?

So then why play favorites?

If he really loves each and every being on this planet, as so many claim he does, then why wouldn't he allow every person into the kingdom of Heaven? Why must we follow certain rules simply in order to gain favor with him and be allowed to spend eternity in his chosen paradise?

If his all encompassing love were, infact true, then he would allow every one of his children to come home to him when their time came.

I know that no matter what pain I've put my mother threw, when I need her, and I need to come home, she welcomes me at the door with open arms and a warm, strong hug.

That's what being a good parent is all about.

It's called unconditional love. Not "love if and only if you follow my rules and only my rules until the day you die".
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
If I cling to this life and put as much credence as you do in it, I would just be setting myself up for a let down because I know it is VERY short here.
Why? Why is death such a "let down" to you? Why not put importance on this life, and still have no fear of death?

Your attempt to demonize my beliefs however is uncalled for and again very immature.
It is the belief that a better afterlife awaits that causes people to strap bombs to themselves and kill people.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Sheesh, no offence, but is it anal hour on RF tonight? some of you need to lighten up tonight ;)

RF, where every hour is anal hour. Wait a minute... that didn't come out right.


Obviously im talking about living units
I suppose getting into how "life" and species are defined (and the problems posed by viruses and such) would be anal, right? :)
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
It is the belief that a better afterlife awaits that causes people to strap bombs to themselves and kill people.

Yes, and to dedicate their lives to the poor, giving up material desire in this life for reward in the next. Belief in the afterlife, like religion in general, can be responsible for a variety of actions, from suicide bombing to mother theresa.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We all die, right?
Some old, some young.
Some feel pain, some don't.

What part of that equation gives anyone recourse to curse my God for the way He has chosen to do things?
I have no desire to curse anyone's God, but I think there's some question about "the way He has chosen to do things." That is, everyone seems to have a different opinion on this matter. Everyone seems to find his own ideas about God's methods convincing, yet, thus far, God has not seen fit to clarify the dispute.

If after your death, you can go to eternal bliss, why do you think on the finite things of this world as if they matter?
Because God seems so inordinately concerned about them! -- all these myriad rules and restrictions covering every thought and action. Apparently meticulous attention to the finite things of this world is crucial to our eternal future.


What is the hardest thing to understand about my God?
First: why you're convinced He exists.
There's really no empirical evidence of His existence, much less of His Nature and intentions. Yet, if He is as powerful as all assert, He could make His existence known and desires clear in the wink of an eye, should He really desire to do so.
Second: Why you're convinced your own interpretation of His Nature and desires is more correct than the competing interpretations of other religions.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
No offense, but it is very difficult to read words that don't originate from the author's mind on a forum. If I wanted to read extra curricular reading I would search the net. It is your mind that I am interested in. If you can condense what you posted I would love to look at it. If not, I understand.

Simple, the idea of exclusivity is silly at best.
There are many roads to God.

Merton goes on further to discuss how esoteric (for the few) is a part of the exoteric (for the many)... or the contemplative (monks for example) are a part of the catholic church. How "monks" exist within the fabric of the overall exoteric but operate at a different level.

.....

In the end, that is the main point, there are many roads that lead to rome, the actual universality of what Christ IS, is rather amazing....
It is quite true to say that no one reaches the father but through the son. But if one understands what this means at a deeper level, it does not mean one must be a christian. But I think that may be beyond you, I will discuss this further if you like; or not.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Now, before I continue to read through this thread, I just have something small to say concerning the OP.

Do you really want to know what the hardest thing to understand about your god is?

Why "certain" people?

He is supposed to love all "his children" equally, is he not?

So then why play favorites?

If he really loves each and every being on this planet, as so many claim he does, then why wouldn't he allow every person into the kingdom of Heaven? Why must we follow certain rules simply in order to gain favor with him and be allowed to spend eternity in his chosen paradise?

If his all encompassing love were, infact true, then he would allow every one of his children to come home to him when their time came.

I know that no matter what pain I've put my mother threw, when I need her, and I need to come home, she welcomes me at the door with open arms and a warm, strong hug.

That's what being a good parent is all about.

It's called unconditional love. Not "love if and only if you follow my rules and only my rules until the day you die".

maybe its like how a "song" goes........

"Its freedom of speech, until you say too much"
 

nonbeliever_92

Well-Known Member
I stopped after reading this. There are so many problems with this that it's sad that you don't see the problems with it.

How dare you say that "finite things" don't mattter!?! By what stretch of the imgination do you think that you can allow such foolish droll to exit the edges of your mouth. "You get to go to heaven, so just forget about this life."

I don't know what religion you are, but whatever religion it is that teaches you to think in such a manner that you would ask such a question is a religion that should be eradicated from the planet.

God made us here. On this planet, in this finite world. Now tell me, why on Earth would God put us on this planet if we weren't already meant to be here?

Do you honestly believe that God created this world, this universe, and allowed history to continue as it has for the past 5769 years only for the "true purpose" of life to be to die and go to heaven?

woah, wait, Knight you believe that the world is under six thousand years old or do you believe that man'd history is under six thousand years old? i don't understand....:confused::confused::confused:
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
First: why you're convinced He exists.
There's really no empirical evidence of His existence, much less of His Nature and intentions. Yet, if He is as powerful as all assert, He could make His existence known and desires clear in the wink of an eye, should He really desire to do so.
Second: Why you're convinced your own interpretation of His Nature and desires is more correct than the competing interpretations of other religions.

Is there empirical evidence for Ganesh????

I think the idea that one view is better than others, to the point where others are superflous, wrong and must be changed... is problematic.

Although I think most human arguments can be summed up thusly:

"I have the bigger stick
This means you are inferior
You are worthless because I have the bigger stick"
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
What part of that equation gives anyone recourse to curse my God for the way He has chosen to do things?

If after your death, you can go to eternal bliss, why do you think on the finite things of this world as if they matter?
......
His message is that to truly understand life, you have to understand true life is eternal. So what we are seeing now is only an illusion yet real at the same time.

This is the kind of thing that really really bothers me about god belief in general.

It`s this kind of thinking that de-values life.
The only life we get as far as anyone can say for sure.

Scary stuff.
 
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