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A Marxist and Religious?
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
In my opinion, you can be both. But if you do, expect to be shunned by churches and a good part of the Christian community. Basically there's a culture built up around Christianity. And to be Marxist may be interpreted as giving the middle finger to some of that culture.
But do Christians make it with such ideas? Yes. They just have to look a bit harder for communities, and to try not to feel an outcast.
But do Christians make it with such ideas? Yes. They just have to look a bit harder for communities, and to try not to feel an outcast.
I don't think you could properly subscribe to both Marxism and Christianity.
For example, I'm not sure how you'd reconcile a belief in dialectical materialism with Christianity.
I think it is entirely possible to be a socialist...or even a communist perhaps...and a Christian.
For all the time I've spent looking in to it, I haven't seen a really comprehensive Marxist attempt to spell out why they are Atheist at all, beyond simply asserting they are materialist and it's "scientific". So personally, it remains an open question. It is a matter of dispute amongst Marxists, but for the sake of a quiet life and not alienating people I'd say it is ok and being a Christian and a Marxist isn't really going to bother anyone.
Marxism is roughly composed to two sets of ideas; Dialectical Materialism, which is a philosophy of science and nature, and Historical Materialism, which is a theory of science and history.
Most people have some familiarity with Historical Materialism and will borrow Marxist ideas and use them in combination with religious ideas, including Christianity. If you go to a sociology class at university or school, you'll learn basic ideas about "class", "base and superstructure", "capitalism", "socialism", etc. If you go to a bookstore and pick up a book on Marx and Marxism, this is typically what you will read about and authors will give various perspectives on it.
These are really the building blocks of Marxist ideology and can be used any number of ways depending on what you are trying to do. Everyone will probably read or have heard of the Communist Manifesto at some point, and these ideas have trickled in to the wider public consciousness over time. Often this means we adopt some Marxist ideas whilst unwittingly holding existing ideas which may not be Marxist or are even opposed to Marxism. In the long-run, you will probably run in to philosophical problems but you can deal with that if and when they arise.
However, Dialectical Materialism is most definitely an atheist philosophy as it is essentially a theory of knowledge which determines how you can know something, what is true and what is possible when you look at natural and social phenomenon. It takes a fairly explicitly Atheist position rejecting the existence of god, the soul, supernatural phenomena in general and asserts that there could never be a "creation" of the universe (or matter). It would assert that religion is a "false consciousness" of nature and society that preserves an exploiting society in contrast to the "scientific socialism" of Marxism. This is the philosophical thinking behind Marxism-Leninism that defined the Soviet Union and other Communist bloc countries, hence why they were "State Atheist" and "Anti-Religious".
Nevertheless, even the Soviets conceded that religious had served the causes of classes intent on progressive changes in the past (e.g. Christian opposition to Slavery) and efforts to use Christianity to express Socialism and Marxist beliefs can perform a progressive role in allowing the working class to articulate their views with their existing ideas. If you are a Christian and you are on the wrong side of capitalism, experiencing the injustices, exploitation and oppression, you are naturally going to draw on your existing ideas to understand those personal experiences. Within their ranks the Soviets had debates on reforming the Russian Orthodox Church to be more Socialist and whether Socialism entailed the establishment of new forms of religion, but they were controversial amongst Marxist-Leninists and generally rejected out of hand or tolerated based on an uneasy truce.
When you start to ask deeper philosophical questions, in practice trying to combine Marxism and Christianity, such as does god exist, was Jesus merely a mortal man or acting on behalf of a supernatural deity, will our prayers be answered, can you believe in evolution and the book of genesis, etc, you'll probably find that they don't work that well together and do conflict because they are based on very different understand on the nature of the world and what is possible to occur within it. But It is up to you to decide for yourself and to figure out what you really believe to be true.
Yes. Absolutely.
I do not see any correlation between religion and politics.
I do not see any correlation between religion and politics.
You have my official permission to be both.
Hermit Philosopher
Selflessly here for you
Dear Eddi
Traditionally, Marxists are atheist.
But hey, some communist dictators claim to be Marxists, whiles thanking God in public for all kinds of weird stuff, so who knows anymore...
If I may though, I’d like to point to something in relation to Marxism, communism and socialism: unlike equal opportunity, financial equality (the extinction of economic class) requires submission to a powerful State, in that it cannot allow for the freedom to do as one wants with one’s assets. Is that really a price one be willing to pay...?
Humbly
Hermit
Brian2
Veteran Member
There are Christians who see capitalism as God ordained, but they can take that idea too far and end up very much on the right politically. A more socialist capitalism or a capitalist socialism sounds preferable to either one on it's own. Capitalism with heart. Socialism with respect of private ownership.
I think one can believe in class conflict without buying into dialectic materialism and atheism...For all the time I've spent looking in to it, I haven't seen a really comprehensive Marxist attempt to spell out why they are Atheist at all, beyond simply asserting they are materialist and it's "scientific". So personally, it remains an open question. It is a matter of dispute amongst Marxists, but for the sake of a quiet life and not alienating people I'd say it is ok and being a Christian and a Marxist isn't really going to bother anyone.
Marxism is roughly composed to two sets of ideas; Dialectical Materialism, which is a philosophy of science and nature, and Historical Materialism, which is a theory of science and history.
Most people have some familiarity with Historical Materialism and will borrow Marxist ideas and use them in combination with religious ideas, including Christianity. If you go to a sociology class at university or school, you'll learn basic ideas about "class", "base and superstructure", "capitalism", "socialism", etc. If you go to a bookstore and pick up a book on Marx and Marxism, this is typically what you will read about and authors will give various perspectives on it.
These are really the building blocks of Marxist ideology and can be used any number of ways depending on what you are trying to do. Everyone will probably read or have heard of the Communist Manifesto at some point, and these ideas have trickled in to the wider public consciousness over time. Often this means we adopt some Marxist ideas whilst unwittingly holding existing ideas which may not be Marxist or are even opposed to Marxism. In the long-run, you will probably run in to philosophical problems but you can deal with that if and when they arise.
However, Dialectical Materialism is most definitely an atheist philosophy as it is essentially a theory of knowledge which determines how you can know something, what is true and what is possible when you look at natural and social phenomenon. It takes a fairly explicitly Atheist position rejecting the existence of god, the soul, supernatural phenomena in general and asserts that there could never be a "creation" of the universe (or matter). It would assert that religion is a "false consciousness" of nature and society that preserves an exploiting society in contrast to the "scientific socialism" of Marxism. This is the philosophical thinking behind Marxism-Leninism that defined the Soviet Union and other Communist bloc countries, hence why they were "State Atheist" and "Anti-Religious".
Nevertheless, even the Soviets conceded that religious had served the causes of classes intent on progressive changes in the past (e.g. Christian opposition to Slavery) and efforts to use Christianity to express Socialism and Marxist beliefs can perform a progressive role in allowing the working class to articulate their views with their existing ideas. If you are a Christian and you are on the wrong side of capitalism, experiencing the injustices, exploitation and oppression, you are naturally going to draw on your existing ideas to understand those personal experiences. Within their ranks the Soviets had debates on reforming the Russian Orthodox Church to be more Socialist and whether Socialism entailed the establishment of new forms of religion, but they were controversial amongst Marxist-Leninists and generally rejected out of hand or tolerated based on an uneasy truce.
When you start to ask deeper philosophical questions, in practice trying to combine Marxism and Christianity, such as does god exist, was Jesus merely a mortal man or acting on behalf of a supernatural deity, will our prayers be answered, can you believe in evolution and the book of genesis, etc, you'll probably find that they don't work that well together and do conflict because they are based on very different understand on the nature of the world and what is possible to occur within it. But It is up to you to decide for yourself and to figure out what you really believe to be true.
And I think that Marxism is a form of class consciosuness that one may have whilst also being religious
I don't think Marxism has anything to do with being a Christian or Non-Christian, and there are even books on Christian Marxism and Christian Communism and all that, they work fine together and really don't have much to do with each other overall and can easily be kept as distinct issues, there is nothing in Marxism or Communism or Capitalism or whatever that really makes it that you can't believe in God or a God or whatever.
One of my names for God is "THE STATE".
Christian communism - Wikipedia.
Religious communism - Wikipedia
Christian socialism - Wikipedia
Islamic socialism - Wikipedia
Marxism and religion - Wikipedia
"
Karl Marx's religious views have been the subject of much interpretation. In the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right, Marx famously stated:
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.[2]
According to Howard Zinn, "[t]his helps us understand the mass appeal of the religious charlatans of the television screen, as well as the work of Liberation Theology in joining the soulfulness of religion to the energy of revolutionary movements in miserably poor countries".[3] Some recent scholarship has suggested that "opium of the people" is itself a dialectical metaphor, a "protest" and an "expression" of suffering.[4][5] Marx did not object to a spiritual life and thought it was necessary. In the "Wages of Labour" of the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844, Marx wrote: "To develop in greater spiritual freedom, a people must break their bondage to their bodily needs—they must cease to be the slaves of the body. They must, above all, have time at their disposal for spiritual creative activity and spiritual enjoyment."[6]
There are those who view that the early Christian Church such as that one described in the Acts of the Apostles was an early form of communism and religious socialism. The view is that communism was just Christianity in practice and Jesus as the first communist.[7] This link was highlighted in one of Marx's early writings which stated that "[a]s Christ is the intermediary unto whom man unburdens all his divinity, all his religious bonds, so the state is the mediator unto which he transfers all his Godlessness, all his human liberty".[7] Furthermore, Thomas Müntzer led a large Anabaptist communist movement during the German Peasants' War which Friedrich Engels analysed in The Peasant War in Germany. The Marxist ethos that aims for unity reflects the Christian universalist teaching that humankind is one and that there is only one god who does not discriminate among people.[8] Tristram Hunt attributes a religious persuasion to Engels.[9]"
"
Nonetheless, Lenin allowed Christians and other religious people in the Bolshevik Party. While critical of religion, Lenin also specifically made a point to not include it in Our Programme or his ideological goals, arguing:
But under no circumstances ought we to fall into the error of posing the religious question in an abstract, idealistic fashion, as an "intellectual" question unconnected with the class struggle, as is not infrequently done by the radical-democrats from among the bourgeoisie. It would be stupid to think that, in a society based on the endless oppression and coarsening of the worker masses, religious prejudices could be dispelled by purely propaganda methods. It would be bourgeois narrow-mindedness to forget that the yoke of religion that weighs upon mankind is merely a product and reflection of the economic yoke within society. No number of pamphlets and no amount of preaching can enlighten the proletariat, if it is not enlightened by its own struggle against the dark forces of capitalism. Unity in this really revolutionary struggle of the oppressed class for the creation of a paradise on earth is more important to us than unity of proletarian opinion on paradise in heaven.[12]
"
"
Religious communism - Wikipedia
Christian socialism - Wikipedia
Islamic socialism - Wikipedia
Marxism and religion - Wikipedia
"
Karl Marx's religious views have been the subject of much interpretation. In the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right, Marx famously stated:
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.[2]
According to Howard Zinn, "[t]his helps us understand the mass appeal of the religious charlatans of the television screen, as well as the work of Liberation Theology in joining the soulfulness of religion to the energy of revolutionary movements in miserably poor countries".[3] Some recent scholarship has suggested that "opium of the people" is itself a dialectical metaphor, a "protest" and an "expression" of suffering.[4][5] Marx did not object to a spiritual life and thought it was necessary. In the "Wages of Labour" of the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844, Marx wrote: "To develop in greater spiritual freedom, a people must break their bondage to their bodily needs—they must cease to be the slaves of the body. They must, above all, have time at their disposal for spiritual creative activity and spiritual enjoyment."[6]
There are those who view that the early Christian Church such as that one described in the Acts of the Apostles was an early form of communism and religious socialism. The view is that communism was just Christianity in practice and Jesus as the first communist.[7] This link was highlighted in one of Marx's early writings which stated that "[a]s Christ is the intermediary unto whom man unburdens all his divinity, all his religious bonds, so the state is the mediator unto which he transfers all his Godlessness, all his human liberty".[7] Furthermore, Thomas Müntzer led a large Anabaptist communist movement during the German Peasants' War which Friedrich Engels analysed in The Peasant War in Germany. The Marxist ethos that aims for unity reflects the Christian universalist teaching that humankind is one and that there is only one god who does not discriminate among people.[8] Tristram Hunt attributes a religious persuasion to Engels.[9]"
"
Nonetheless, Lenin allowed Christians and other religious people in the Bolshevik Party. While critical of religion, Lenin also specifically made a point to not include it in Our Programme or his ideological goals, arguing:
But under no circumstances ought we to fall into the error of posing the religious question in an abstract, idealistic fashion, as an "intellectual" question unconnected with the class struggle, as is not infrequently done by the radical-democrats from among the bourgeoisie. It would be stupid to think that, in a society based on the endless oppression and coarsening of the worker masses, religious prejudices could be dispelled by purely propaganda methods. It would be bourgeois narrow-mindedness to forget that the yoke of religion that weighs upon mankind is merely a product and reflection of the economic yoke within society. No number of pamphlets and no amount of preaching can enlighten the proletariat, if it is not enlightened by its own struggle against the dark forces of capitalism. Unity in this really revolutionary struggle of the oppressed class for the creation of a paradise on earth is more important to us than unity of proletarian opinion on paradise in heaven.[12]
"
"
Continued:
Anatoly Lunacharsky on religion[edit]
Main article: God-Building
God-Building was an idea proposed by some prominent early Marxists of the Bolshevik faction of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party. Inspired by Ludwig Feuerbach's "religion of humanity", it had some precedent in the French Revolution with the "cult of reason". The idea proposed that in place of the abolition of religion, there should be a meta-religious context in which religions were viewed primarily in terms of the psychological and social effect of ritual, myth and symbolism in an attempt to harness this force for pro-communist aims, both by creating new ritual and symbolism and by re-interpreting existing ritual and symbolism in a socialist context. In contrast to the atheism of Lenin, the God-Builders took an official position of agnosticism.[14]"
Cult of the Supreme Being - Wikipedia
"The Cult of the Supreme Being (French: Culte de l'Être suprême)[note 1] was a form of deism established in France by Maximilien Robespierre during the French Revolution. It was intended to become the state religion of the new French Republic and a replacement for Roman Catholicism and its rival, the Cult of Reason. It went unsupported after the fall of Robespierre and was officially proscribed when Napoleon restored Catholicism in France."
"
Communism and Christianity[edit]
Main article: Christian communism
In The Communist Manifesto, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels wrote: "Nothing is easier than to give Christian asceticism a Socialist tinge. Has not Christianity declaimed against private property, against marriage, against the State? Has it not preached in place of these, charity and poverty, celibacy and mortification of the flesh, monastic life and Mother Church? Christian Socialism is but the holy water with which the priest consecrates the heart-burnings of the aristocrat."[29] In Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, Engels drew a certain analogy between the sort of utopian communalism of some of the early Christian communities and the modern-day communist movement, the scientific communist movement representing the proletariat in this era and its world historic transformation of society. Engels noted both certain similarities and certain contrasts.[30]
Christian communism can be seen as a radical form of Christian socialism. It is a theological and political theory based upon the view that the teachings of Jesus Christ compel Christians to support communism as the ideal social system. Although there is no universal agreement on the exact date when Christian communism was founded, many Christian communists assert that evidence from the Bible suggests that the first Christians, including the Apostles, created their own small communist society in the years following Jesus' death and resurrection. Advocates of Christian communism argue that it was taught by Jesus and practiced by the Apostles themselves.[7][31]
Contemporary communism, including contemporary Christian communism, owes much to Marxist thought—particularly Marxian economics. While not all communists are in full agreement with Marxism, communists share the Marxist critique of capitalism. Marxism includes a complex array of views that cover several different fields of human knowledge and one may easily distinguish between Marxist philosophy, Marxist sociology and Marxist economics. Marxist sociology and Marxist economics have no connection to religious issues and make no assertions about such things. On the other hand, Marxist philosophy is famously atheistic, although some Marxist scholars, both Christian and non-Christian, have insisted that Marxist philosophy and the philosophy of Marx and Engels are significantly different from one another and that this difference needs recognition. In particular, Jose Porfirio Miranda found Marx and Engels to be consistently opposed to deterministic materialism and broadly sympathetic towards Christianity and towards the text of the Bible, although disbelieving in a supernatural deity.[32]"
"
19th-century German philosopher Karl Marx, the founder and primary theorist of Marxism, viewed religion as "the soul of soulless conditions" or the "opium of the people". At the same time, Marx saw religion as a form of protest by the working classes against their poor economic conditions and their alienation.[1]
In the Marxist–Leninist interpretation, all modern religions and churches are considered as "organs of bourgeois reaction" used for "the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class". A number of Marxist–Leninist governments in the 20th century such as the Soviet Union after Vladimir Lenin and the People's Republic of China under Mao Zedong implemented rules introducing state atheism."
Anatoly Lunacharsky on religion[edit]
Main article: God-Building
God-Building was an idea proposed by some prominent early Marxists of the Bolshevik faction of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party. Inspired by Ludwig Feuerbach's "religion of humanity", it had some precedent in the French Revolution with the "cult of reason". The idea proposed that in place of the abolition of religion, there should be a meta-religious context in which religions were viewed primarily in terms of the psychological and social effect of ritual, myth and symbolism in an attempt to harness this force for pro-communist aims, both by creating new ritual and symbolism and by re-interpreting existing ritual and symbolism in a socialist context. In contrast to the atheism of Lenin, the God-Builders took an official position of agnosticism.[14]"
Cult of the Supreme Being - Wikipedia
"The Cult of the Supreme Being (French: Culte de l'Être suprême)[note 1] was a form of deism established in France by Maximilien Robespierre during the French Revolution. It was intended to become the state religion of the new French Republic and a replacement for Roman Catholicism and its rival, the Cult of Reason. It went unsupported after the fall of Robespierre and was officially proscribed when Napoleon restored Catholicism in France."
"
Communism and Christianity[edit]
Main article: Christian communism
In The Communist Manifesto, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels wrote: "Nothing is easier than to give Christian asceticism a Socialist tinge. Has not Christianity declaimed against private property, against marriage, against the State? Has it not preached in place of these, charity and poverty, celibacy and mortification of the flesh, monastic life and Mother Church? Christian Socialism is but the holy water with which the priest consecrates the heart-burnings of the aristocrat."[29] In Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, Engels drew a certain analogy between the sort of utopian communalism of some of the early Christian communities and the modern-day communist movement, the scientific communist movement representing the proletariat in this era and its world historic transformation of society. Engels noted both certain similarities and certain contrasts.[30]
Christian communism can be seen as a radical form of Christian socialism. It is a theological and political theory based upon the view that the teachings of Jesus Christ compel Christians to support communism as the ideal social system. Although there is no universal agreement on the exact date when Christian communism was founded, many Christian communists assert that evidence from the Bible suggests that the first Christians, including the Apostles, created their own small communist society in the years following Jesus' death and resurrection. Advocates of Christian communism argue that it was taught by Jesus and practiced by the Apostles themselves.[7][31]
Contemporary communism, including contemporary Christian communism, owes much to Marxist thought—particularly Marxian economics. While not all communists are in full agreement with Marxism, communists share the Marxist critique of capitalism. Marxism includes a complex array of views that cover several different fields of human knowledge and one may easily distinguish between Marxist philosophy, Marxist sociology and Marxist economics. Marxist sociology and Marxist economics have no connection to religious issues and make no assertions about such things. On the other hand, Marxist philosophy is famously atheistic, although some Marxist scholars, both Christian and non-Christian, have insisted that Marxist philosophy and the philosophy of Marx and Engels are significantly different from one another and that this difference needs recognition. In particular, Jose Porfirio Miranda found Marx and Engels to be consistently opposed to deterministic materialism and broadly sympathetic towards Christianity and towards the text of the Bible, although disbelieving in a supernatural deity.[32]"
"
19th-century German philosopher Karl Marx, the founder and primary theorist of Marxism, viewed religion as "the soul of soulless conditions" or the "opium of the people". At the same time, Marx saw religion as a form of protest by the working classes against their poor economic conditions and their alienation.[1]
In the Marxist–Leninist interpretation, all modern religions and churches are considered as "organs of bourgeois reaction" used for "the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class". A number of Marxist–Leninist governments in the 20th century such as the Soviet Union after Vladimir Lenin and the People's Republic of China under Mao Zedong implemented rules introducing state atheism."
MNoBody
Well-Known Member
it has been called a brand of statism which is qualitatively the same [religious activity]
there are many "born-again" zealous statists.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
One would have to be blind to not see the commonality between communism and Christ's teachings.
Augustus
…
Depends what kind of "Marxist".
You can't be a traditional Karl Marx style Marxist, but you can be a Marxist of sorts as there are countless 'neo-Marxist' offshoots
In the same way you could be an atheist Christian by adopting certain aspects of the religion, even though you wouldn't be a traditional Christian
Hey, you can all do whatever the heck you want to do, its pretty cool! You can call yourself whatever you want, and you can imagine wiggling around Marx's facial hair and saying he is your daddy along with Christ or whatever, whooooo caaaaaares! Is someone going to stop you? Well they can try! They always do! No matter what you'll say most likely, someone will try to get in your face and say "NOooo NO YOU CAN'T! POTATOES SEPARATE FROM PEAS AND PEAS SEPARATE FROM CARROTS!"
Tambourine
Well-Known Member
We know from our American posters that Marxism is about single player healthcare, Antifa and Black Lives Matter, which are godless endeavours no good American Christian would support.
I don't know why anyone would want to be a Marxist, religious or not, as it's a total failure as has been proven time and again.
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Also:
Buddhist socialism - Wikipedia
Hinduism I think is different here because it's primary texts are very much Right-leaning when it comes to government and economy, even though it's moral and social views are more left-leaning.
You don't really read of any "Hindu communism" but apparently Communism is quite popular in India.
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Most religions have elements that can be taken to be related to Marxist ideas, I'm not so sure any particular religion is really Marxist though.
According to some sources though the proto-Ismaili Shi'ite group known as the Qarmatians are said to have been proto-Communist, albeit other sources say proto-Anarchist, so I don't know for sure.
There are definitely proto-Socialist sentiments in Jesus' sermon of the mount.
Buddhism is very conservative, so is Hinduism (of course, I'm not saying for individual followers).