Yeah, I feel the same way about it, it just doesn't seem to work, it may be too idealistic, and doesn't account for the predatory people always trying to take advantage and "game" whatever system they can, leading to constant and repeated corruption of the positions which hold authority and people getting taken advantage of, or otherwise trying to take advantage of what they can if they are not messing with the system (whatever system) from the inside, any way they can.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
A Marxist and Religious?
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
Yeah, I feel the same way about it, it just doesn't seem to work, it may be too idealistic, and doesn't account for the predatory people always trying to take advantage and "game" whatever system they can, leading to constant and repeated corruption of the positions which hold authority and people getting taken advantage of, or otherwise trying to take advantage of what they can if they are not messing with the system (whatever system) from the inside, any way they can.
That is true! I was tempted to possibly include the Buddhist socialism link, as I had seen it, but I decided against it for my post because I thought maybe the original poster was a believer in some Abrahamic God concept and that a lot of people identifying themselves as Buddhists might have an easier time claiming compatibility with Atheistic Marxism or whatever since they often deny being into any concept of an Abrahamic style God.
I interpreted the original poster's concern as having to do with their loyalties to an Abrahamic concept of God or Christ while being a supporter of Marxist ideas and philosophy (which I mainly interpret as socio-economic, even though some people even say Marxism or other kinds of Communism verge on being practically religions in their own right).
Also, even if Buddhists did worship Buddha (as many seem to actually do, one way or another, or related things at least), they might still find it not necessarily as much of a problem as the Abrahamics since they all seem to place a heavy emphasis on "loyalties" a lot of the time, at least in how they tend to be interpreted (whereas people like Chinese, Japanese, Hindus, and Buddhists seem to be alright worshipping or adopting all kinds of things so long as they feel it is somehow serving them well to do so, or even potentially abandoning anything as well, with no need for particular loyalties to one or the other exclusively, as far as I've understood how some of these cultures have worked in recent times anyway). The Jews were seemingly pressured into taking YHWH as their only God against all the other nations and told explicitly to remain steadfast against efforts of other nations to bring them to worship their Gods (even though its more than likely the vast majority through history were all worshipping similar things across the cultures and the extreme xenophobia and exclusivism might have be an anachronistic retro-insertion), and there is a lot of sort of proto-nationalism going on in the collected texts (proto because I'm not so sure they really considered themselves a nation at the times that were being referred to, but later seemed to insist upon there being such a "Nation" of a sort existing).
It is no wonder also, that there were probably a lot of "Jewish Thinkers" who may have had an influence on the Bolsheviks and the Communist revolutions, and that the Bible and Jewish culture may have indeed influenced and informed some of their ideas or tendencies, just as Christianity was a major point of discussion or departure for the German Idealists and Philosophers during that period.
So for this particular poster, I thought it might be more relevant for them to see other "Abrahamic Types" who would have more pressure to "Stay Loyal" demonstrating the adoption of some (typically considered Atheistic and even Anti-Religious) ideology while retaining their affiliations without issue, whereas the Buddhists in the West that I've met seem to have no problem considering themselves Atheists and even Materialists who don't believe in anything much supernatural, so that basically their Buddhism is just believing in the help that meditation can give them, and believing that the Buddha was a strict Atheist Skeptic like themselves, who denied the supernatural (which seems totally far from the truth or anything written by the Buddhists really without a lot of twisting and outright rejection of the apparent records and history that had been passed down for generations as what the Buddhists tended to believe in).
So to avoid someone coming along and saying "Buddhists are Atheists, Non-Theistic, so Marxism is compatible with Buddhism, but not with Christianity or Islam" I thought I'd provide the more difficult to compromise or bring together seeming options. I'm glad you put up that link though as it prompted this part of the discussion and this post of mine as well, which brings up the interesting side topic (lol, I love tangents sometimes), which is about "Loyalties" and also "Proto-Nationalism" was a cool part as well!
If capitalists can be Christians despite all the conflicts between those two worldviews, then sure - why not be a Marxist and a Christian?
Tambourine
Well-Known Member
Free-Market Capitalism is too idealistic because it doesn't account for predatory people trying to "game" the system, corruption of positions of authority, as well as people trying to take advantage of one another, or being taken advantage of, due to being in constant competition and rivalry with one another.
Tambourine
Well-Known Member
I don't know why anybody would want to still hitch themselves to an ideology like Nationalism which has amply demonstrated its total failure over the past 200 years, yet here we are.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And it was largely for this reason why socialism was introduced as there was an inadequate safety-net that relied on charity alone that couldn't handle the job, especially during a recession or depression. Even though it's what's called "historical fiction", Les Miserable quite well captures the tremendous hurt that it created.
[btw, contrary to the more recent movie version, it was actually the "Paris Uprising" that it was originally about, thus not the French Revolution-- I still loved it anyway!]
Today, all countries have abandoned complete free-market capitalism and now use what we call a "mixed economy", thus a mixture of both capitalistic and socialistic programs.
Tambourine
Well-Known Member
I mean, they did have a remedy: Workhouses.
Because nothing says "unregulated free market" quite like "state-mandated free labor by the poorest of society".
The fun fact is that Hugo actually experienced both. He had first hand experience living in Paris during the 1832 Uprising literally walking alongside barricades, but he was also living through the 1848 Revolution.
Maybe 30 years ago, before the heydays of Neoliberalism.
Nowadays, privatizing public services and cutting government programs is all the rage in the Western world.
Totally, I agree with that as well, something has to be done about these **mod edit** mother****ing snakes on this mother****ing plane!
Haha, sorry!
Last edited by a moderator:
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
Sure. There are Christian Communists. Religion and economics are two different things.
Marxism is essentially a sub-set of philosophical materialism. In my opinion, classical dialectical materialism and the classical religion-spiritualism differ fundamentally in terms of the theoretical underpinnings.
But there can be a pragmatic radical fusion. In India there was one MN Roy who was a radical kind of communist who was religious-spiritual too. Similarly, I heard, that Ho Chi Min did not repudiate the indigenous spirituality but tried to balance his Marxism with the ancient wisdom of his land.
I believe that egalitarianism can be a bridge between the two seemingly opposite world-views.
...
...
...
For all the time I've spent looking in to it, I haven't seen a really comprehensive Marxist attempt to spell out why they are Atheist at all, beyond simply asserting they are materialist and it's "scientific". So personally, it remains an open question. It is a matter of dispute amongst Marxists, but for the sake of a quiet life and not alienating people I'd say it is ok and being a Christian and a Marxist isn't really going to bother anyone.
Marxism is roughly composed to two sets of ideas; Dialectical Materialism, which is a philosophy of science and nature, and Historical Materialism, which is a theory of science and history.
Most people have some familiarity with Historical Materialism and will borrow Marxist ideas and use them in combination with religious ideas, including Christianity. If you go to a sociology class at university or school, you'll learn basic ideas about "class", "base and superstructure", "capitalism", "socialism", etc. If you go to a bookstore and pick up a book on Marx and Marxism, this is typically what you will read about and authors will give various perspectives on it.
These are really the building blocks of Marxist ideology and can be used any number of ways depending on what you are trying to do. Everyone will probably read or have heard of the Communist Manifesto at some point, and these ideas have trickled in to the wider public consciousness over time. Often this means we adopt some Marxist ideas whilst unwittingly holding existing ideas which may not be Marxist or are even opposed to Marxism. In the long-run, you will probably run in to philosophical problems but you can deal with that if and when they arise.
However, Dialectical Materialism is most definitely an atheist philosophy as it is essentially a theory of knowledge which determines how you can know something, what is true and what is possible when you look at natural and social phenomenon. It takes a fairly explicitly Atheist position rejecting the existence of god, the soul, supernatural phenomena in general and asserts that there could never be a "creation" of the universe (or matter). It would assert that religion is a "false consciousness" of nature and society that preserves an exploiting society in contrast to the "scientific socialism" of Marxism. This is the philosophical thinking behind Marxism-Leninism that defined the Soviet Union and other Communist bloc countries, hence why they were "State Atheist" and "Anti-Religious".
Nevertheless, even the Soviets conceded that religious had served the causes of classes intent on progressive changes in the past (e.g. Christian opposition to Slavery) and efforts to use Christianity to express Socialism and Marxist beliefs can perform a progressive role in allowing the working class to articulate their views with their existing ideas. If you are a Christian and you are on the wrong side of capitalism, experiencing the injustices, exploitation and oppression, you are naturally going to draw on your existing ideas to understand those personal experiences. Within their ranks the Soviets had debates on reforming the Russian Orthodox Church to be more Socialist and whether Socialism entailed the establishment of new forms of religion, but they were controversial amongst Marxist-Leninists and generally rejected out of hand or tolerated based on an uneasy truce.
When you start to ask deeper philosophical questions, in practice trying to combine Marxism and Christianity, such as does god exist, was Jesus merely a mortal man or acting on behalf of a supernatural deity, will our prayers be answered, can you believe in evolution and the book of genesis, etc, you'll probably find that they don't work that well together and do conflict because they are based on very different understand on the nature of the world and what is possible to occur within it. But It is up to you to decide for yourself and to figure out what you really believe to be true.
I think one can privately be a spiritual person but one will not be taken in into an official Marxist group.
On the other hand, for example, in India, for the current rulers and their supporters (who claim to be the torch bearer of Hinduism), the Marxists-Communists are the real villains. But actually, in Hindutva (the ideology of the current ruling party), the deity ‘Shri Ram’ is a warrior leader (and not the spirit that Indwells in all).
My point is that the most so called religiosity is political and represents a position on the spectrum of materialism only, whereas spirituality is about seeing an all pervading spirit indwelling all beings and the universe. In this understanding of spirituality, in my opinion, equality of all is the axiom. For example, Bhagavat Gita teaches “The wise sees the same everywhere and in all”. (paraphrased).
...
Last edited:
I think I'd be very creeped out at the idea of being part of an official Marxist group.
I am creeped out by the idea of being part of any group. I sometimes consider this a very unfortunate trait. I cannot conform.
...
This is very interesting.
I understand that Hindu scriptures take a pragmatic view. For example it recognises four fundamental mental-functional types. It recognises that people are designed to follow the following four functional paths: Education-study, Warrior, Business, and Service.
But the Paramatman (the highest God-Brahman-the Consciousness) pervades all these four functional types equally. Scriptures teach “The wise see same everywhere” or “One who sees any difference here goes from death to death”.
On the other hand, the political Hinduism (called Hindutva by the rulers) is extremely rightist. Communists and liberals are enemies of the nation. In this philosophy, the Deity Ram is not the spirit per se but is a warrior personality of the Godhead.
...
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It would be unusual but nothing inherently conflicting. Jesus was more or less a communist himself, and he was certainly more sympathetic towards the working class than the elites. So there is a good deal of potential overlap. He and Engels also gained a reputation as pro-feminist authors (such as describing the exploitation of the wife who does domestic tasks and raises the children without any compensation). He did have influence in labor unions, and he has some good considerations about class struggles. And while his "opium of the masses" remark is widely misinterpreted, his philosophies do tend to be of a materialist view of the world.
But there are so many "sub genres" of Marxism I wouldn't be surprised to find if some religious group has adopted parts of him.
For all the time I've spent looking in to it, I haven't seen a really comprehensive Marxist attempt to spell out why they are Atheist at all, beyond simply asserting they are materialist and it's "scientific". So personally, it remains an open question. It is a matter of dispute amongst Marxists, but for the sake of a quiet life and not alienating people I'd say it is ok and being a Christian and a Marxist isn't really going to bother anyone.
Marxism is roughly composed to two sets of ideas; Dialectical Materialism, which is a philosophy of science and nature, and Historical Materialism, which is a theory of science and history.
Most people have some familiarity with Historical Materialism and will borrow Marxist ideas and use them in combination with religious ideas, including Christianity. If you go to a sociology class at university or school, you'll learn basic ideas about "class", "base and superstructure", "capitalism", "socialism", etc. If you go to a bookstore and pick up a book on Marx and Marxism, this is typically what you will read about and authors will give various perspectives on it.
These are really the building blocks of Marxist ideology and can be used any number of ways depending on what you are trying to do. Everyone will probably read or have heard of the Communist Manifesto at some point, and these ideas have trickled in to the wider public consciousness over time. Often this means we adopt some Marxist ideas whilst unwittingly holding existing ideas which may not be Marxist or are even opposed to Marxism. In the long-run, you will probably run in to philosophical problems but you can deal with that if and when they arise.
However, Dialectical Materialism is most definitely an atheist philosophy as it is essentially a theory of knowledge which determines how you can know something, what is true and what is possible when you look at natural and social phenomenon. It takes a fairly explicitly Atheist position rejecting the existence of god, the soul, supernatural phenomena in general and asserts that there could never be a "creation" of the universe (or matter). It would assert that religion is a "false consciousness" of nature and society that preserves an exploiting society in contrast to the "scientific socialism" of Marxism. This is the philosophical thinking behind Marxism-Leninism that defined the Soviet Union and other Communist bloc countries, hence why they were "State Atheist" and "Anti-Religious".
Nevertheless, even the Soviets conceded that religious had served the causes of classes intent on progressive changes in the past (e.g. Christian opposition to Slavery) and efforts to use Christianity to express Socialism and Marxist beliefs can perform a progressive role in allowing the working class to articulate their views with their existing ideas. If you are a Christian and you are on the wrong side of capitalism, experiencing the injustices, exploitation and oppression, you are naturally going to draw on your existing ideas to understand those personal experiences. Within their ranks the Soviets had debates on reforming the Russian Orthodox Church to be more Socialist and whether Socialism entailed the establishment of new forms of religion, but they were controversial amongst Marxist-Leninists and generally rejected out of hand or tolerated based on an uneasy truce.
When you start to ask deeper philosophical questions, in practice trying to combine Marxism and Christianity, such as does god exist, was Jesus merely a mortal man or acting on behalf of a supernatural deity, will our prayers be answered, can you believe in evolution and the book of genesis, etc, you'll probably find that they don't work that well together and do conflict because they are based on very different understand on the nature of the world and what is possible to occur within it. But It is up to you to decide for yourself and to figure out what you really believe to be true.
This was a great post.
Sure, but classical Marxism has major conflicts with theistic religious views.
The easiest way to combine them is to cherry pick aspects of them.
Whilst I have no issues with that, at some point you're simply not a Marxist. Which is fine. The label is commonly misused for all sorts of socialist beliefs and offshoots that aren't actually Marxist communism.
Yerda
Veteran Member
History is driven by antagonism between classes and also Jesus is the ticket to heaven?
That doesn't seem to be inconsistent to me.
Fair enough. You're obviously entitled to your opinion.
On a superficial level, I agree. I think it's entirely possible to hold some Marxist views, and some Christian views, and reconcile the two. I think it's also possible to hold some combined view of the two for quite a while.
But where I was coming from was to assume that someone calling themselves a 'Marxist' isn't just belonging to a group, but is actually buying into the entirety of Marxist philosophy. Otherwise I'd see them as a communist (for example) but not essentially a Marxist.
So, 'antagonism between classes' has some initial synergy with Christianity, right? After all, the Bible does state that 'Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.'
But Marxism is essentially a political philosophy. It does much further than suggesting mere antagonism between classes, and instead suggests that this is the very driving force between humanity. People are divided not by their belief in God, or their ability to stick to scripture, but instead by their access to the means of production. Can you reconcile those two things? I mean...sure...but imagine a landowner tithing to the church and doing charitable acts (simplistically) would be viewed differently by the two theories.
And how important is political struggle? To Marx, it was the centre of almost literally everything. To Christianity? Consider Roman...
'Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.'
On the face of it, Marxism and Christianity can co-exist. And certainly there are forms of communism and even aspects of Marxism that can.
But in a holistic and deeper sense, I don't see it at all.