A Plea for the Christians

[Oberon]

You'd think that, wouldn't you? However, whenever someone like me presses someone like you for who exactly "scholars" are, there never seems to be any names.

I have plenty of names. Some of the biggest in the "quest for the historical Jesus" (from all different backgrounds, Jewish, agnostic, atheist, etc) include: Reimarus, Strauss, Wrede, Schweitzer, Bultmann, Crossan, Meier, Meyer, Wright, Borg, Mack, Funk, Smith (Morton), and Sanders. I can give you more if you wish.

When there are, they're all people who are horrifically biased towards

Wrong. Several of the above are not Christians.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Professional historians are not necessarily engaged by any particular interest in the issue

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]of Jesus – and are all too aware of its controversial nature. A scholar who announces that he thinks there was no historical Jesus is likely to face scorn, even ridicule, and will gain little for his candour.[/FONT]

And yet, somehow, scholars have been doing that for over 100 years. Many scholars have cast doubt on many parts of the gospel, and denied evidence for Jesus as God. Yet they all acknowledge he was a historical person




[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Thus most scholars, raised and educated in a Christian culture are content either to assume Jesus lived (and defer to the opinions of biblical specialists who are often men of faith) or, given the paucity of evidence for a great many historical personages, preface their uncertainty with a "probably".

[/FONT]

Have you ever read the work of actual scholars on the historical Jesus? And I am not talking about laypersons like Freke and Gandy and their "Jesus and the Lost Goddess" crap. I mean actual experts who have devoted years to studying both a mass of scholarship and reading the original sources in the languages they were written. I am guessing you haven't, or you wouldn't be spouting what you are.​

​

There are no historical sources for Jesus.

The gospels are historical sources. You probably haven't read enough historical work from the classical era. Read Herodotus. His work is full of inaccurate information and miraculous stories, yet scholars parse his work (and other ancient historians) for historical data. Lots of work has been done in order to determine that the gospels actually DO fit in as a type of ancient biography (akin to the Lives of historians such as Plutarch). Most importantly, a great deal of work has been devoted to mapping the model of orality used in the Jesus tradition. This is my area of expertise, and it is important because the best models indicate that the the method of passing on oral stories, sayings, etc, within the Jesus tradition allowed for accuracy within transmission.

There are claims that he existed that date back to the first and early second century. The problem is that those claims are predated by Jesus cults that worshipped a handful of Jewish rabbis (including Yeshua ben Pandira who died in 88bce by being hung from a tree on the eve of passover for torquing off the Jewish authorities... sound familiar?).

Instead of reading sensational crap why don't you read some peer-reviewed journals or books published by experts? Even those radically opposed to modern Christianity would disagree with you.

 

[The Duke of Vandals]

And what part is that?

The parts that mention Jesus. What I see you're not addressing... what I've mentioned several times in several threads is that none of the early church fathers... in all their myriad arguments with pagans... ever mentions Josephus' writing about Jesus. No one does until the 3rd century. The only conclusion we can draw is that the version of Josephus didn't contain the mention of Jesus which was later on entered.

We're going to pause the debate here until you adress this point. I'll hit up your other points from your post afterwards.

 

[The Duke of Vandals]

You know what - I've made an executive decision about "the duke." "Don't Feed The Animals." His style is so inflammatory and sarcastic, that I'm not wasting any more time on him. Which is a shame, because I actually do enjoy debating and discussing scholarly topics.

I find his approach no more palatable than any other extreme fundamentalist's approach.

Get.

Over.

Yourself.

 

[The Duke of Vandals]

I have plenty of names. Some of the biggest in the "quest for the historical Jesus" (from all different backgrounds, Jewish, agnostic, atheist, etc) include: Reimarus, Strauss, Wrede, Schweitzer, Bultmann, Crossan, Meier, Meyer, Wright, Borg, Mack, Funk, Smith (Morton), and Sanders. I can give you more if you wish.



Wrong. Several of the above are not Christians.

Ah. Several. And no links. Or first names.

Great opening.

Let me show you what I'm looking for. Here is a list of people dating back 200 years who have doubted the existence of Jesus to one degree or another:

Hermann Samuel Reimarus (1694-1768).1778, On the Intention of Jesus and His Teaching. Enlightenment thinker and professor of Oriental languages at the Hamburg Gymnasium, hisextensive writings – published after his death – rejected 'revealed religion' and argued for a naturalistic deism. Reimarus charged the gospel writers with conscious fraud and innumerable contradictions.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Francois Marie Arouet (Voltaire) (1694-1778) The most influential figure of the Enlightenment was educated at a Jesuit college yet concluded, "Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd, and bloody religion that has ever infected the world ... The true God cannot have been born of a girl, nor died on a gibbet, nor be eaten in a piece of dough." Imprisoned, exiled, his works banned and burned, [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Voltaire's great [/FONT]popularity in revolutionary France assured him a final resting place in the [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pantheon in Paris. R[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eligious[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] extremists stole his remains and dumped them in a garbage heap. [/FONT][/FONT]
Count Constantine Volney, 1787, Les Ruines; ou, Méditation sur les révolutions des empires (Ruins of Empires). Napoleonic investigator saw for himself evidence of Egyptian precursors of Christianity.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Edward Evanson, 1792, The Dissonance of the Four Generally Received Evangelists and the Evidence of their Respective Authenticity. English rationalist challenged apostolic authorship of the 4th Gospel and denounced several Pauline epistles as spurious.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Charles François Dupuis, 1794, Origine de tous les Cultes ou La Religion universelle. Astral-mythical interpretation of Christianity (and all religion). “A great error is more easily propagated, than a great truth, because it is easier to believe, than to reason, and because people prefer the marvels of romances to the simplicity of history.” Dupuis destroyed most of his own work because of the violent reaction it provoked.[/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thomas Paine, 1795, The Age of Reason. Pamphleteer who made the first call for American independence (Common Sense, 1776; Rights of Man, 1791) Paine poured savage ridicule on the contradictions and atrocities of the Bible. Like many American revolutionaries Paine was a deist:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of ... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." – The Age of Reason.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Robert Taylor, 1828, Syntagma Of The Evidences Of The Christian Religion; 1829, Diegesis. Taylor was imprisoned for declaring mythical origins for Christianity. "The earliest Christians meant the words to be nothing more than a personification of the principle of reason, of goodness, or that principle, be it what it may, which may most benefit mankind in the passage through life.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Godfrey Higgins (1771-1834). 1836, Anacalypsis – An Attempt to Draw Aside the Veil of the Saitic Isis; or an Inquiry into the Origin of Languages, Nations and Religions. English pioneer of archaeology and freemason.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bruno Bauer, 1841, Criticism of the Gospel History of the Synoptics. 1877, Christus und die Caesaren. Der Hervorgang des Christentums aus dem romischen Griechentum. The original iconoclast. Bauer contested the authenticity of all the Pauline epistles (in which he saw the influence of Stoic thinkers like Seneca) and identified Philo's role in emergent Christianity. Bauer rejected the historicity of Jesus himself. "Everything that is known of Jesus belongs to the world of imagination." As a result in 1842 Bauer was ridiculed and removed from his professorship of New Testament theology at Tübingen.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1841, Essays. One time Trinitarian Christian and former Unitarian minister held Jesus to be a "true prophet" but that organised Christianity was an "eastern monarchy".[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Our Sunday-schools, and churches, and pauper-societies are yokes to the neck."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mitchell Logan, 1842, Christian Mythology Unveiled. “Reigning opinion, however ill-founded and absurd, is always queen of the nations.” [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ferdinand Christian Baur, 1845, Paulus, der Apostel Jesu Christi. German scholar who identified as "inauthentic" not only the pastoral epistles, but also Colossians, Ephesians, Philemon and Philippians (leaving only the four main Pauline epistles regarded as genuine). Baur was the founder of the so-called "Tübingen School."[/FONT][/FONT]

David Friedrich Strauss, 1860, The Life of Jesus Critically Examined. Lutheran vicar-turned-scholar skilfully exposed gospel miracles as myth and in the process reduced Jesus to a man. It cost him his career.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ernest Renan, 1863, Das Leben Jesu. Trained as a Catholic priest, Renan wrote a romanticised biography of the godman which was influenced by the German critics. It cost him his job.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Robert Ingersoll, 1872, The Gods. Illinois orator extraordinaire, his speeches savaged the Christian religion. "It has always seemed to me that a being coming from another world, with a message of infinite importance to mankind, should at least have verified that message by his own signature. Is it not wonderful that not one word was written by Christ?"[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Kersey Graves, 1875, The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviours. Pennsylvanian Quaker who saw through to the pagan heart of Christian fabrications, though rarely cited sources for his far-reaching conclusions.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Allard Pierson, 1879, De Bergrede en andere synoptische Fragmenten. Theologian, art and literature historian who identified The Sermon on the Mount as a collection of aphorisms from Jewish Wisdom literature.The publication of Pierson's Bergrede was the beginning of Dutch Radical Criticism. Not just the authenticity of all the Pauline epistles but the historical existence of Jesus himself was called into question.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bronson C. Keeler, 1881, A Short History of the Bible. A classic exposé of Christian fraud.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Abraham Dirk Loman, 1882, "Quaestiones Paulinae," in Theologisch Tijdschrift. Professor of theology at Amsterdam who said all the epistles date from the 2nd century. Loman explained Christianity as a fusion of Jewish and Roman-Hellenic thinking. When he went blind Loman said his blindness gave him insight into the dark history of the church![/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thomas William Doane, 1882, Bible Myths and their Parallels in Other Religions. Outdated but a classic revelation of pagan antecedents of biblical myths and miracles.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Samuel Adrianus Naber, 1886, Verisimilia. Laceram conditionem Novi Testamenti exemplis illustrarunt et ab origine repetierunt. Classicist who saw Greek myths hidden within Christian scripture.[/FONT]​

... Continued

 

[The Duke of Vandals]

...Continued

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Gerald Massey, 1886, Historical Jesus and Mythical Christ. 1907, Ancient Egypt-The Light of the World. Another classic from an early nemesis of the priesthood. British Egyptologist wrote six volumes on the religion of ancient Egypt [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Edwin Johnson, 1887, Antiqua mater. A Study of Christian Origins. English radical theologian identified the early Christians as the Chrestiani, followers of a good (Chrestus) God who had expropriating the myth of Dionysos Eleutherios ("Dionysos the Emancipator"), to produce a self-sacrificing Godman. Denounced the twelve apostles as complete fabrication.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Wilhelm Wrede, 1901, The Messianic Secret. Wrede demonstrated how, in Mark’s gospel, a false history was shaped by early Christian belief.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]George Robert Stowe Mead, 1903, Did Jesus Live 100 BC? A discussion of the Jewish Jeschu stories which moves Jesus back to an earlier time.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thomas Whittaker, 1904, The Origins of Christianity. Declared Jesus a myth.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]William Benjamin Smith, 1906, Der vorchristliche Jesus. 1911, Die urchristliche Lehre des reingöttlichen Jesus. Argues for origins in a pre-Christian Jesus cult on the island of Cyprus.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Albert Kalthoff, 1907, The Rise of Christianity. Another radical German scholar who identified Christianity as a psychosis. Christ was essentially the transcendental principle of the Christian community which aimed at apocalyptic social reform.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Gerardus Bolland, 1907, De Evangelische Jozua. Philosopher at Leiden identified the origin of Christianity in an earlier Jewish Gnosticism. The New Testament superstar is the Old Testament 'son of Nun', the follower renamed Jesus by Moses. The virgin is nothing but a symbol for the people of Israel. From Alexandria the "Netzerim" took their gospel to Palestine. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In 1907 Pope Pius X condemned the Modernists who were "working within the framework of the Church". An anti-Modernist oath was introduced in 1910. [/FONT]


​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Prosper Alfaric (1886-1955) French Professor of Theology, shaken by the stance of Pius X, renounced his faith and left the church in 1909 to work for the cause of rationalism.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mangasar Magurditch Mangasarian, 1909, The Truth About Jesus ? Is He a Myth? Erstwhile Presbyterian Minister who saw through the fabrication. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Karl Kautsky, 1909, The Foundations of Christianity. Early socialist interpreted Christianity in terms of class struggle.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]John E. Remsburg, 1909, The Christ: A critical review and analysis of the evidences of His existence. Gospels rife with contradictions. Doubtful that Jesus existed and a supernatural Christ is certainly Christian dogma.[/FONT]

Arthur Drews, 1910, Die Christusmythe (The Christ Myth). 1910, Die Petruslegende (The Legend of St Peter). 1924, Die Entstehung des Christentums aus dem Gnostizismus (The Emergence of Christianity from Gnosticism). Eminent philosopher was Germany's greatest exponent of the contention that Christ is a myth. The gospels historized a pre-existing mystical Jesus whose character was drawn from the prophets and Jewish wisdom literature. The Passion was to be found in the speculations of Plato.

John Robertson, 1910, Christianity and Mythology. 1911, Pagan Christs. Studies in Comparative Hierology. 1917, The Jesus Problem. Robertson drew attention to the universality of many elements of the Jesus' storyline and to pre-Christian crucifixion rituals in the ancient world. Identified the original Jesus/Joshua with an ancient Ephraimite deity in the form of a lamb.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Gustaaf Adolf van den Bergh van Eysinga, 1912, Radical Views about the New Testament. 1918, Voorchristelijk Christendom. De vorbereiding van het Evangelie in de Hellenistische wereld. Theologian and last of the Dutch radicals to hold a university professorship.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Alexander Hislop, 1916, The Two Babylons. Exhaustive exposure of the pagan rituals andparaphernalia of Roman Catholicism.[/FONT]

Edward Carpenter, 1920, Pagan and Christian Creeds. Elaborated the pagan origins of Christianity.

Rudolf Bultmann, 1921, The History of the Synoptic Tradition. 1941, Neues Testament und Mythologie. Lutheran theologian and professor at Marburg University Bultman was the exponent of 'form criticism' and did much to demythologise the gospels. He identified the narratives of Jesus as theology served up in the language of myth. Bultmann observed that the New Testament was not the story of Jesus but a record of early Christian belief. He argued that the search for an historical Jesus was fruitless: "We can know almost nothing concerning the life and personality of Jesus." (Jesus and the Word, 8)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]James [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Frazer, 1922, The Golden Bough. Anthropological interpretation of man's progress from magic, through religion to science. Christianity a cultural phenomenon.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]P. L. Couchoud, 1924, Le mystère de Jesus.1939, The Creation of Christ. Couchoud espoused an historical Peter rather than an historical Jesus and argued that the Passion was modelled on the death of Stephen.Georg Brandes, 1926, Jesus – A Myth. Identified the Revelation of St John as the earliest part of the New Testament. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Joseph Wheless, 1926, Is It God's Word? An Exposition of the Fables and Mythology of the Bible and the Fallacies of Theology. 1930, Forgery in Christianity. American attorney, raised in the Bible Belt, shredded the biblical fantasy.[/FONT]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Henri Delafosse, 1927, Les Lettres d’Ignace d’Antioche. 1928, "Les e'crits de Saint Paul," in Christianisme. Epistles of Ignatius denounced as late forgeries.[/FONT]

L. Gordon Rylands, 1927, The Evolution of Christianity.1935, Did Jesus Ever Live?

Edouard Dujardin, 1938, Ancient History of the God Jesus.

John J. Jackson, 1938, Christianity Before Christ, Drew attention to the Egyptian precedents of Christian belief.

Alvin Boyd Kuhn, 1944, Who is this King of Glory? 1970, Rebirth for Christianity. Jesus was never a person, but a symbol of the divine soul in every human being.

Herbert Cutner, 1950, Jesus: God, Man, or Myth? Mythical nature of Jesus and a summary of the ongoing debate between mythicists and historicizers. Mythic-only position is continuous tradition, not novel. Pagan origins of Christ.

Georges Las Vergnas, 1956, Pourquoi j'ai quitté l'Eglise romaine Besançon. 1958, Jésus-Christ a-t-il existé? Vicar general of the diocese of Limoges who lost his faith. Argues that the central figure of Christianity had no historical existence. Georges Ory, 1961, An Analysis of Christian Origins.

Guy Fau, 1967, Le Fable de Jesus Christ.

John Allegro, 1970, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. 1979, The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth. Jesus was nothing other than a magic mushroom and his life an allegorical interpretation of a drug-induced state. Not jail for Allegro – but professional ruin.

George Albert Wells, 1975, Did Jesus Exist? 1988, The Historical Evidence for Jesus. 1996, The Jesus Legend. 1998, Jesus Myth. 2004, Can We Trust the New Testament? Thoughts on the Reliability of Early Christian Testimony. Christianity a growth from Jewish Wisdom literature. Later books concede possible influence of a real preacher.Max Rieser, 1979, The True Founder of Christianity and the Hellenistic Philosophy. Christianity started by Jews of the Diaspora and then retroactively set in pre-70 Palestine. Christianity arrived last, not first, in Palestine – that's why Christian archeological finds appear in Rome but not in Judea until the 4th century.

​

Continued

 

[The Duke of Vandals]

Continued...

Abelard Reuchlin, 1979, The True Authorship of the New Testament. Conspiracy theory par excellence: Roman aristocrat Arius Calpurnius Piso (aka "Flavius Josephus") conspired to gain control of the Roman Empire by forging an entirely new religion.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Karlheinz Deschner, 1986-2004, The Criminal History of Christianity, Volumes 1-8. A leading German critic of religion and the Church. In 1971 Deschner was called before a court in Nuremberg, charged with "insulting the Church."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hermann Detering, 1992, Paulusbriefe ohne Paulus?: Die Paulusbriefe in der holländischen Radikalkritik. German minister in the Dutch radical tradition. No Jesus and no Paul. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Gary Courtney, 1992, 2004 Et tu, Judas? Then Fall Jesus! The Passion is essentially Caesar's fate in Judaic disguise, grafted onto the dying/resurrcting cult of Attis. Jewish fans of Caesar assimilated the sacrificed 'saviour of mankind' into the 'Suffering Servant' of Isaiah.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Michael Kalopoulos, 1995, The Great Lie. Greek historian finds strikingly similar parallels between biblical texts and Greek mythology. He exposes the cunning, deceitful and authoritarian nature of religion.[/FONT]

Gerd Lüdemann, 1998, The Great Deception: And What Jesus Really Said and Did. 2002, Paul: The Founder of Christianity. 2004, The Resurrection Of Christ: A Historical Inquiry. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]After 25 years of study[/FONT] German professor [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]concluded Paul, not Jesus, started Christianity.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lüdemann[/FONT] was expelled from the theology faculty at the University of Göttingen for daring to say that the Resurrection was "a pious self-deception." So much for academic freedom.

Alvar Ellegard, 1999, Jesus One Hundred Years Before Christ. Christianity seen as emerging from the Essene Church of God with the Jesus prototype the Teacher of Righteousness.

D. Murdock (aka 'Acharya S') 1999, The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold. 2004, Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled. Adds a astro-theological dimension to christ-myth demolition. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Murdock[/FONT] identifies JC as a composite deity used to unify the Roman Empire. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Earl Doherty, 1999, The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Powerful statement of how Christianity started as a mystical-revelatory Jewish sect – no Jesus required!.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy, 1999, The Jesus Mysteries. 2001, Jesus and the Lost Goddess : The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians. Examines the close relationship between the Jesus Story and that of Osiris-Dionysus. Jesus and Mary Magdalene mythic figures based on the Pagan Godman and Goddess.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Harold Liedner, 2000, The Fabrication of the Christ Myth. Anachronisms and geographic errors of the gospels denounced. Christianity one of history's most effective frauds.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Robert Price, 2000, Deconstructing Jesus. 2003 Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable Is the Gospel Tradition? Ex-minister and accredited scholar shows Jesus to be a fictional amalgam of several 1st century prophets, mystery cult redeemers and gnostic 'aions'.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hal Childs, 2000, The Myth of the Historical Jesus and the Evolution of Consciousness. A psychotherapist take on the godman.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Michael Hoffman, 2000, Philosopher and theorist of "ego death" who jettisoned an historical Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Burton Mack, 2001,The Christian Myth: Origins, Logic, and Legacy. Social formation of myth making.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Luigi Cascioli, 2001, The Fable of Christ. Indicting the Papacy for profiteering from a fraud![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Israel Finkelstein, Neil Silbermann, 2002, The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts. Courageous archaeologists who skillfully proved the sacred foundational stories of Judaism and Christianity are bogus.Frank R. Zindler, 2003, The Jesus the Jews Never Knew: Sepher Toldoth Yeshu and the Quest of the Historical Jesus in Jewish Sources. No evidence in Jewish sources for the phantom messiah.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Daniel Unterbrink, 2004, Judas the Galilean. The Flesh and Blood Jesus. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Parallels[/FONT] between the tax rebel of 6 AD and the phantom of the Gospels explored in detail. 'Judas is Jesus'. Well, part of Jesus, no doubt.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Tom Harpur, 2005, The Pagan Christ: Recovering the Lost Light. Canadian New Testament scholar and ex-Anglican priest re-states the ideas of Kuhn, Higgins and Massey. Jesus is a myth and all of the essential ideas of Christianity originated in Egypt.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Francesco Carotta, 2005, Jesus Was Caesar: On the Julian Origin of Christianity. Exhaustive inventory of parallels. Alarmingly, asserts Caesar was Jesus.[/FONT]

Joseph Atwill, 2005, Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus. Another take on the Josephus-Gospel similarities. Atwill argues that the 1st century conquerors of Judaea, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian, used Hellenized Jews to manufacture the "Christian" texts in order to establish a peaceful alternative to militant Judaism. Jesus was Titus Flavius? I don't think so.
Michel Onfray, 2005, Traité d'athéologie (2007 In Defence of Atheism) French philosopher argues for a positive atheism, debunking an historical Jesus along the way.
Kenneth Humphreys, 2005, Jesus Never Existed. Book of this website. Draws together the most convincing expositions for the supposed messianic superhero. The author sets this exegesis within the socio-historical context of an evolving, malevolent religion.
Jay Raskin, 2006, The Evolution of Christs and Christianities. Academic and erstwhile filmaker Raskin looks beyond the official smokescreen of Eusebius and finds a fragmented Christ movement and a composite Christ figure, crafted from several literary and historical characters. Speculates that the earliest layer of myth-making was a play written by a woman called Mary. Maybe.
Thomas L. Thompson, 2006, The Messiah Myth. Theologian, university don and historian of the Copenhagen school who concludes Jesus and David are both amalgams of Near Eastern mythological themes originating in the Bronze Age
​

And yet, somehow, scholars have been doing that for over 100 years. Many scholars have cast doubt on many parts of the gospel, and denied evidence for Jesus as God. Yet they all acknowledge he was a historical person

​

Have you ever read the work of actual scholars on the historical Jesus?

Yes. They begin and end with silly assumptions and make gutless conclusions that agree with the dogma of Christianity. If you have one that you think isn't gutless, go ahead and post a link to it. ​

The gospels are historical sources.

Riiiiight. Since we're ignoring the fact that there was an early church looking to fabricate a tale, we can consider Dianetics to be an historical source, too, right?

 

[Oberon]

The parts that mention Jesus. What I see you're not addressing... what I've mentioned several times in several threads is that none of the early church fathers... in all their myriad arguments with pagans... ever mentions Josephus' writing about Jesus

Why would they? The early christian apologists were not concerned with proving that Jesus was a historical person, but that he was God. No one doubted he existed, and it didn't matter if he did if he wasn't God. All Josephus said (once Christian additions have been removed) was that Jesus was a wise man.

Let me show you what I'm looking for. Here is a list of people dating back 200 years who have doubted the existence of Jesus to one degree or another:

Unfortunately for you, I have actually read many of these (you included several names I already mentioned). Many of those you mention aren't experts (Freke and Gandy, as I mentioned already, are nobodys. One has a Bachelor's in psychology, the other allegedly has a M.A. in classical civilizations but his translations of Greek are awful). And I already pointed out that numerous scholars have doubted parts of the gospels. But Bultmann, Wrede, Reimarus, and others you mention all acknowledge that Jesus was a historical person, as does every current scholar of the historical Jesus regardless of religious background

 

[sojourner]

So... it's your contention that the writing we have from that era from guys like Philo of Alexandria was from illiterate people? The Jews didn't have a written religion? Is that really your argument?

Have you ever taken a look at the literacy rates in that area at that time??? Just because maybe 2% of the population could read and write doesn't mean that everybody could. That drastically changes how information is processed and transmitted -- and digested! There would have been many more stories told about Jesus than were ever written, because that's just a product of the time and place. You ought to be astute enough to figure that out.

 

[Oberon]

If you have one that you think isn't gutless, go ahead and post a link to it.

Several of the sources you mention. Rudolf Bultmann, for example, said that "Little as we know of his life and personality, we know enough of his message to make for ourselves a consistent picture." Many others you cite also argued for a historical Jesus. You would know this, had you actually read them.

Yes. They begin and end with silly assumptions and make gutless conclusions that agree with the dogma of Christianity.

I gave you names (I'll add first names if you wish). Who have you read? I would guess nobody, as you obviously don't know what you are talking about. Probably the majority of historians of early Christianity and the historical Jesus do not agree with Christian dogma (many on the list I gave you, for example).

 

[sojourner]

the fact that there was an early church looking to fabricate a tale

Looking at the post this came from, as well as the two preceding it, you really are in love with yourself, aren't you? Why don't you get over yourself? Come one. The "fact" that there was an early church...??? What fact? I invoke habeas corpus here. Show me the body. All you've given us so far is scholastic pablum, when we really need meat.

I really don't care how long your list of skeptics is. The world is full of people who mean well. Like Saddam Hussein. Scholastic inquiry could not take place without a healthy dose of skepticism. But there are many instances in which the skeptics have tried convention and failed to prove convention wrong. I really think the best you can come up with (and remain within the realm of reality) is that you think Jesus never existed. That's fine. In fact, that's all I ever came up with. I think Jesus really existed. That's fine, too. There's certainly more evidence for his existence than there is for the existence of other people during that time.

In fact, Crossan states explicitly that, while he thinks there was a man named Jesus, and that it's likely that he was crucified for insurrection, it's also likely that his body was fed to the dogs or buried in a common grave. Certainly not towing the party line, as it were! And I happen to think that Crossan is a pretty damn fine scholar. But what it comes down to isn't what we think, it's what we believe. And belief is as valid for human experience as knowledge. There are truths to Christianity that transcend "the facts." The truths give substance and dimension to the facts.

 

[The Duke of Vandals]

Why would they?

Because they were locked in arguments with pagans who were saying (to paraphrase), "This Jesus guy you keep talking about; he's just like our god. He's just a fairy tale. Why should we worship him?" The idea that the early Christians would pass up a non-Jewish source for Jesus' personhood is ridiculous. Honestly, listen to what you're asking: "Even though modern Christians look to Josephus as extra-biblical evidence, and even though the early Christians were really looking for evidence they could use to convince Pagans of their claims, I don't get why :bonk: the early Christians would want one of the things I use as evidence."

 

[Oberon]

Because they were locked in arguments with pagans who were saying (to paraphrase), "This Jesus guy you keep talking about; he's just like our god. He's just a fairy tale. Why should we worship him?"

No they weren't. You shouldn't paraphrase what you haven't read. For example, why don't you read Celsus? He thought Jesus was historical, and was a pagan who argued vehemently against Christianity.

 

[Kathryn]

get.

Over.

Yourself.

take.

Your.

Own.

Advice.

 

[Kathryn]

Oberon, good work by the way.