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A proposed solution for Young Earth Creationism

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
RSince God does exist and since he loves me, I have a reason to not be a completely selfish person.

And what is that reason?
A God merely existing is not a reason.

What's the actual reason? Fear of this perceived authority? Mere obedience to this perceived authority?
What?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
S I don’t believe you would say this behavior is ok.

Why wouldn't he?
After all, isn't that exactly what you and @Wildswanderer have been arguing all this time?? That if you don't believe in "god" that dictates morality, that one then has no reason to be moral?

So what's that about?
Why would you not believe that an atheist would consider such behavior to being ok?

So would you say if you genuinely have love for your fellow man, contentment, gratitude, sense of peace, joyful, self discipline, honesty, there really isn’t a need for a bunch of laws?

I wouldn't. Laws are about organizing society.
And the fact is that many people aren't like that. The reality is that sociopaths and psychopaths exist. The reality is that sub-cultures exist where they are taught hatred and intolerance. The reality is that some parents are irresponsible and don't properly raise their children, for whatever reason.

And then there's theistic followers of "divine command theory", who do by their own acknowledgement wouldn't see an ethical problem with going on a killing spree if they lost their faith in their perceived authority.


The fact is that every society requires laws as that brings organization and structure.
Even the smallest of social groups will have a few rules in order to keep everything organized.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
What about being an adult human should make me inherently moral in a universe where survival of the fittest is the only law?

You're using that sentence wrong, unsurprisingly.

"fit" here, does not mean "strongest" or "most powerful" or anything like that.
"fit" here, means "best adapted to the environment".

Which in case of a social species like humans, would include traits like empathy and altruism.

In such a world it would seem that Neichze was right and compassion would be a weaknes.
Thank God we don't live in that universe.

We indeed don't live in the universe that you just pretended that we think we live in.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You need to ask why that is true of most people.

Because they have this trait called "empathy".

If they have some innate morality, where does it come from?

Evolution.

Why would I even have a conscience? An animal would not.

This is false.
All social species have a sense of morality / rules of conduct.

The more complex the social structures of the species, the more complex that morality becomes.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Why do you judge me to be a sociopath?

Because the things you say, is what sociopathy is all about.

Is that moral behavior on your part, or selfish behavior?

There's nothing immoral about observing something and then stating what has been observed.

And no, I don't buy the whole society development from us being apes. By now you should know I don't believe we developed over billions of years. Nice fairly tale though. Kinda reminds me of something Disney would put out.

Right, right...
You have no problem believing in the magic of a man made from dirt, a woman made from his rib, a talking snake convincing them to eat from the magical tree fruit, a dude living in a fish for 3 days, an impossible magical flood, a physically impossible magical boat, people living for hundreds of years, etc etc

But a natural observable process like biological evolution - THAT just blows your mind.

Uhu.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
And you know this how?

Because it is "belief" that gives strength. What is being believed is irrelevant.
I gave you the example already of my friend's brother who know lives in a Krishna Temple after being a drug addict.

People can find strength in anything. Including Luke Skywalker.
The story need not be true in order to inspire and motivate.

Thing is you don’t know but I do

No, you believe.


It always is amusing to me that people speak about someone else’s life and experience like they know something.

It's always amusing to me that people confuse mere beliefs with knowledge.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why do you judge me to be a sociopath? Is that moral behavior on your part, or selfish behavior?
This is why I judge you a sociopath. You seem to have no internalized morality. By your own words, the only thing keeping you from running amok is a fear of this invisible god:

"Why should that [
basic human decency] be a thing in a godless universe?"

"Lol, no, in a godless universe we're just animals. And animals rule by force."

"Unless morality comes from an objective, ultimate source, it's just whatever you want it to be at the moment....it totally relative. I can decide morality is whatever I want it to be."

"But there's no reason to treat them in any certain way, except as it benefits me, unless there's a higher authority that says otherwise."

"Selfishness doesn't have to be learned ....that comes natural. Every baby is selfish."

"Since God does exist and since he loves me, I have a reason to not be a completely selfish person."

"In a world where I was just an animal, I would have no such reason. Of course I literally can't imagine such a bleak existence."

"What about being an adult human should make me inherently moral in a universe where survival of the fittest is the only law?"


"Really? Most people are inherently selfish. Especially if they have no moral code that is passed down to them through a belief system."

Again, you confess you lack a moral compass; believe all people are like this, and believe only a threat of retribution from above will keep human society from disintegrating into anarchy.
This is a social disease, and it has a name.

And no, I don't buy the whole society development from us being apes. By now you should know I don't believe we developed over billions of years. Nice fairly tale though. Kinda reminds me of something Disney would put out.
You have tradition, based on unsupported folklore. Science has mountains of hard evidence, from multiple, consilient sources, all pointing to an old Earth and evolution from earlier forms.

Evidently, you have never learned this, and know nothing of either the mechanisms of evolution or the evidence supporting it -- yet you denounce it as patently false.
You're dismissing a theory you know nothing of, simply because it's inconvenient/uncomfortable. This is not intelligent.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You don't understand how a relationship with God changes a persons motivation if you think it's all about fear.

And science has some serious limits when it comes to explaining reality.
Science is the gold standard. Human knowledge and technology exploded after the scientific revolution.

Religion existed for thousands of years, and produced no explanation of reality.
NB: There's a difference between explanation and attribution.
 
Thank goodness... as "god's moral code" allows for slavery and would have us execute gay people who had sex.
Not even close to what I’m talking about as a moral code. More like this:
“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13-26‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Not even close to what I’m talking about as a moral code.

That stuff is in your bible. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

But it's great that you are ignoring it and seemingly aren't even willing to discuss it. It means your moral compass is superior to the one exhibited in the immoral bible.

More like this:
“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13-26‬ ‭NIV‬‬

See, this is what I mean.
Focusing on the bits that sound nice to you while ignoring all the stuff that you yourself find horrible.

This is evidence that you don't derive your morals from the bible. You use an extra-biblical source for your morality and you are using that to cherry pick the good stuff of the bible while ignoring the bad stuff.
 
The fact is that every society requires laws as that brings organization and structure.
Even the smallest of social groups will have a few rules in order to keep everything organized.
That’s correct and to the point that men are inherently selfish and given the opportunity will lust for money, power, control over other people. I believe it’s ignorant and naive to believe men are inherently good and will do the right thing. That has become obvious in our culture today.
 
See, this is what I mean.
Focusing on the bits that sound nice to you while ignoring all the stuff that you yourself find horrible.
Sounds nice you say…that’s God’s moral code for believers. God also allowed for divorce, but only because man’s hard hearted:
“They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.” “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied. “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭10:4-9‬ ‭NIV‬‬
A lot of laws were made in Moses time that don’t apply today but it’s not because God is evil but man is evil and hard hearted. You constantly judge God falsely and do you judge yourself? I’m sure the skeletons in your closet aren’t very nice.
So you’re the one focusing on bits and not the whole context of Scripture and what God has done for mankind.
 
It's not name calling. It's not an insult.

It's calling a duck a "duck".

The list he posted, are textbook examples of sociopathy.
Really? So I could call a person a jerk on here as long as it fits the definition and I explain “my perception” cause that’s what that post was. Totally wrong
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I didn’t think this forum allowed this kind of speech, name calling and judging people like this. If it does the thread is going to change quite a bit when others start doing the same.
It may be unfortunate, but this individual is displaying the signs of sociopathy when they seem to have no regard as to the lives of non-human animals or believing that they would have no moral nature without some religious belief. The former, seeing animals more as objects, has been tied to sociopathy towards other humans.
 
It may be unfortunate, but this individual is displaying the signs of sociopathy when they seem to have no regard as to the lives of non-human animals or believing that they would have no moral nature without some religious belief. The former, seeing animals more as objects, has been tied to sociopathy towards other humans.
I don’t see how you can make a judgement that because he said animals don’t have a moral code, which they don’t have a moral code like human beings do. If a person would think like that then I would say to that person, please don’t go petting a bear or go near a growling dog ( unless you first tell the dog you mean him no harm and you just want to pet him). But to make the jump to now he is a sociopath or have no regard for animals is way off and your judgement is wrong.
 
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