A proposed solution for Young Earth Creationism

[ElishaElijah]

What is wrong with lustful desires?

The lustful desire I’m talking about is a desire for someone other than your wife. The sexual desire is fulfilled in a marriage between husband and wife and blessed.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I guess maybe you’re right, if lions could cook they might do medium, instead of rare all the time.

Well I should have added that many of us would see our particular morality - those who do have feelings and empathy towards other creatures - rather better than that seemingly coming from some religious beliefs, and where such creatures are apparently just here on Earth to serve us in the various forms we dictate.

 

[Polymath257]

What an awful excuse, let’s not look at the lustful desires going unchecked and blame the rules, which people don’t believe or follow anyway. Nevertheless the Bible describes the reason.

Our society is contradictory when it comes to sexuality and nudity. On one hand, you have those who want to suppress both and on the other you have those who want to sell things using both. The combination leads to a very unhealthy attitude towards both.

Part of the reason that sexuality has the selling power it does is the repression, which makes it 'forbidden fruit'. When it is titilating to show a breast, people develop an unhealthy attitude towards breasts. it is *because* it is 'forbidden' that it becomes enticing.

Lust, in and of itself, is not a bad thing any more than hunger is a bad thing. The problems come when that lust causes us to not treat people decently and honesty.

But, frankly, the rules make no sense. The goal is for people to love each other. Sex is one way to express that love. It isn't the only way, but it is an important way.

I think we need to encourage a sex-positive way of looking at things rather than a sex-negative way. So, condemnation of homosexuality is wrong in my way of seeing things. People who love others of the same gender should be having sex if that is how their relationship goes. People of opposite genders should be having sex if that is how their relationship goes. People should have sex even if they are not married if that is how their relationship goes.

The key is communication, so all parties involved know what is involved, and being honest as to motivations and expectations. The main risk of sex is pregnancy, and that is something that needs to be discussed and methods found for prevention if it is not wanted.

Other than that, I find few moral issues with sex.

 

[Polymath257]

The lustful desire I’m talking about is a desire for someone other than your wife. The sexual desire is fulfilled in a marriage between husband and wife and blessed.

I disagree. It is good to have sex before marriage or even if there is no intention to get married. It is good for people in committed relationships to be sexual if that is what they want to do.

The main moral issues with sex have to do with honesty, consent, and making sure pregnancy is avoided. Once those have been dealt with, sex is morally neutral.

 

[Polymath257]

God gives us a conscience. That's not external.

God is external. So the source is external.

 

[Polymath257]

I have studied wild canines my entire life. They are not moral. A wolf tearing apart a living animal has morality? Come on, get real.

They don't tear apart members of their own society. That is their morality.

Eating meat isn't a moral question for a wolf. it is their biology.

And if it's just rules then there has to be an ultimate rule maker. Or I can always make my own rules.

Groups of people make their own rules. If they don't like those rules, they re-negotiate and make different rules. The rules are about how to get along with others. Morality is about how to encourage human well-being.

 

[Polymath257]

The lustful desire I’m talking about is a desire for someone other than your wife. The sexual desire is fulfilled in a marriage between husband and wife and blessed.

I think that condemning sex that isn't between a husband and wife is immoral.

 

[Wildswanderer]

God is external. So the source is external.

That misses the point. The question is why we have any internal moral compass.

 

[Wildswanderer]

They don't tear apart members of their own society. That is their morality.

Eating meat isn't a moral question for a wolf. it is their biology.



Groups of people make their own rules. If they don't like those rules, they re-negotiate and make different rules. The rules are about how to get along with others. Morality is about how to encourage human well-being.

Sure they do. Street gangs have rules, and pecking orders similar to a wolf pack. If that's morality most of us would not want morality.
And they tear apart members of the competing pack. That's not moral it's a survival instinct.

 

[Polymath257]

That misses the point. The question is why we have any internal moral compass.

And I have answered that: because we are a social species. That means we *care* about others in our tribe. We have a sense of fairness (like some other primates do).

The point is that caring and a sense of fairness is the basis of morality. Both are simply aspects of being human. No deity needed.

 

[Polymath257]

Sure they do. Street gangs have rules, and pecking orders similar to a wolf pack. If that's morality most of us would not want morality.

Sort of like the morality described in the Old Testament.

It is based on a small tribe and ignores those outside of the tribe. Even Jesus originally claimed to only preach to one tribe, not the rest of humanity.

BTW, wolf packs in the wild don't have pecking orders. Those arise because of the unnatural placement of wolves in zoos.

And they tear apart members of the competing pack. That's not moral it's a survival instinct.

And yet, that is precisely what the OT promoted: killing off those who opposed one specific tribe.

But you are right. Morality comes when we generalize from the tribe to all of humanity. Which is a very un-Blblical notion.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And I have answered that: because we are a social species. That means we *care* about others in our tribe. We have a sense of fairness (like some other primates do).

The point is that caring and a sense of fairness is the basis of morality. Both are simply aspects of being human. No deity needed.

If we only care about our own tribe, what is moral about that? That can be 100 percent selfish.

I " care" because it benefits me to care. If I truly care about people that don't affect my life in any way, that's a whole other thing.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Our society is contradictory when it comes to sexuality and nudity. On one hand, you have those who want to suppress both and on the other you have those who want to sell things using both. The combination leads to a very unhealthy attitude towards both.

It’s called modest and decent behavior, that’s healthy.

 

[metis]

Sexuality and nudity are not synonymous terms.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I think that condemning sex that isn't between a husband and wife is immoral.

Im not condemning anyone for anything no matter how evil or debased, not my place. But I do think it is immoral to have sex outside of marriage.

 

[Wildswanderer]

But you are right. Morality comes when we generalize from the tribe to all of humanity. Which is a very un-Blblical notion

Lol, really?

"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

"But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."

The Old Testament doesn't give us a holistic view of God's love. Jesus does that.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Part of the reason that sexuality has the selling power it does is the repression, which makes it 'forbidden fruit'. When it is titilating to show a breast, people develop an unhealthy attitude towards breasts. it is *because* it is 'forbidden' that it becomes enticing.

Tell me what sexual expression is forbidden in our society? Have things gotten more moral and right or progressively lewd and sick since the “sexual revolution “? Don’t see any restraint

 

[ElishaElijah]

It is based on a small tribe and ignores those outside of the tribe. Even Jesus originally claimed to only preach to one tribe, not the rest of humanity.

Do you know why?

 

[Polymath257]

It’s called modest and decent behavior, that’s healthy.

Modesty is typically unrelated to decency.

Im not condemning anyone for anything no matter how evil or debased, not my place. But I do think it is immoral to have sex outside of marriage.

And I disagree as long as there is consent and honesty and as long as pregnancy has been dealt with.

In fact, considering the positive effects, I find it a very moral thing to do.

What is immoral, in my view, is making people feel guilty about having sex with someone they care about. That does far more damage than the sex itself. it is what leads to high rates of teen pregnancy (since birth control is avoided to spare the guilt) and promotes the spread of STD since frank discussion is avoided.

I think people *should* have sex before and instead of marriage. it leads to happier and healthier people.

 

[Polymath257]

Tell me what sexual expression is forbidden in our society? Have things gotten more moral and right or progressively lewd and sick since the “sexual revolution “? Don’t see any restraint

There are many that condemn homosexuality. There are many that get bent out of shape if people have sex outside of marriage. There are those who condemn oral sex.

There is also a great deal of hypocrisy when it comes to sex. People deny what they do and condemn others for doing the same thing.

As for the sexual revolution, many have pulled back from the excesses of that time and realized that casual sex tends to lead to more feelings of loneliness. it is much healthier, both physically and mentally, to take matter into your own hands.

But, there is a difference between casual sex and sex with those you care about. The latter tends to strengthen relationships and to promote well-being.

And, yes, I think some people have a MUCH healthier attitude to sexuality than was common 70 years ago. We still need to get away from the leering attitude that advertisements have and that is promoted by religious prohibitions. We need to understand that sexuality is part of a healthy person that has good relationships with others.

All too often, sexual morality is confused with other immoralities, like breaking promises to loved ones. People need to learn to communicate about sex and sexuality. It needs to be more open in how to have a positive sexual relationship as opposed to one based on ownership, guilt, and/or selfishness.