A question About The Archangel Michael and the book of Jude

[glasgowchick]

My question is, can someone be with someone and at the same time be that person? again, off topic...also, at John 17:3 it says 'And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.' think about that. really, really think. that would contradict a whole lot of stuff....

Hi Again, for someone that didn't understand the trinity that would be a hard question to answer, You have the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father and the Holy Spirit is neither one Father or Son but all three share the same Diety..So yes it is possible to be with one of the same. As for John 17: 3 How do we get eternal Life ? Jesus tells us Clearly here by knowing God the Father himself through His son Jesus Christ, Eternal life requires entering into a personal relationship with God in Jesus Christ. When we admit our sin and turn away from it Christs love lives in us by the Holy Spirit.

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

Hi Again, for someone that didn't understand the trinity that would be a hard question to answer, You have the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father and the Holy Spirit is neither one Father or Son but all three share the same Diety..So yes it is possible to be with one of the same. As for John 17: 3 How do we get eternal Life ? Jesus tells us Clearly here by knowing God the Father himself through His son Jesus Christ, Eternal life requires entering into a personal relationship with God in Jesus Christ. When we admit our sin and turn away from it Christs love lives in us by the Holy Spirit.

Hi,
you see this is why i find it so hard to understand the trinity, as I can't see from the scriptures that they clearly teach it. it is very confusing, in light of the rest of the scriptures. you'd think something as important as God's identity would be clearly explained in the scriptures, rather than a handful of scriptures hinting at it and leaving the door open to lots of questions and then apparent contradictions with so many other scriptures. i've done a lot of research on the history of the trinity and you may have as well. and as you may know, the trinity as a teaching didn't exist in the first century. The original Christians didn't believe in the trinity and neither did the Jews. They are monotheistic.
Hebrews 1:1-3
1Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. 2But now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he made the universe and everything in it. 3The Son reflects God's own glory, and everything about him represents God exactly. He sustains the universe by the mighty power of his command. After he died to cleanse us from the stain of sin, he sat down in the place of honour at the right hand of the majestic God of heaven.

Clearly we see in this letter the understanding the first century Christians had of Jesus position, who he was and what he represented. the son reflects God, he is not God, just as someone who says you are the image of your mum, doesn't mean that your actually your mum. But that you have her qualities or that you act like her etc.
(it also, mentions your point about God using Jesus to create.)

I was also thinking about the scripture you quoted, about all authority being given to Jesus. A question comes to mind. Who gave Jesus that authority?
It must have come from a higher source, in order for it to be given to him. But is that possible as Jesus is supposed to be equal with the father?
I found one scripture last night, which i find particularly good. It's in John 7:25-29

25Then some of the Jerusalem people said, is not this the Man they seek to kill?
26And here He is speaking openly, and they say nothing to Him! Can it be possible that the rulers have discovered and know that this is truly the Christ?

27No, we know where this Man comes from; when the Christ arrives, no one is to know from what place He comes.

28Whereupon Jesus called out as He taught in the temple [[c]porches], Do you know Me, and do you know where I am from? I have not come on My own authority and of My own accord and as self-appointed, but the One Who sent Me is true (real, genuine, steadfast); and Him you do not know!

29I know Him [Myself] because I come from His [very] presence, and it was He [personally] Who sent Me.

Once again, Jesus is saying someone other than himself sent him. How could they possibly ever be the same person?? There many more scriptures like this…

 

[glasgowchick]

Hi,
you see this is where i find it so hard to understand the trinity, as I can't see from the scriptures that it clearly teaches it. it is very confusing, in light of the scriptures. you'd think something as important as God's identity would be clearly explained in the scriptures, rather than a handful of scriptures hinting at it and leaving the door open to lots of questions and then apparent contradictions with so many other scriptures. i've done a lot of research on the history of the trinity and you may have as well. and as you may know, the trinity as a teaching didn't exist in the first century. The original Christians didn't believe in the trinity and neither did the Jews. They are monotheistic.
Hebrews 1:1-3
1Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. 2But now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he made the universe and everything in it. 3The Son reflects God's own glory, and everything about him represents God exactly. He sustains the universe by the mighty power of his command. After he died to cleanse us from the stain of sin, he sat down in the place of honour at the right hand of the majestic God of heaven.

Clearly we see in this letter the understanding the first century Christians had of Jesus position, who he was and what he represented. the son reflects God, he is not God, just as someone who says you are the image of your mum, doesn't mean that your actually your mum. But that you have her qualities or that you act like her etc.
(it also, mentions your point about God using Jesus to create.)

I was also thinking about the scripture you quoted, about all authority being given to Jesus. A question comes to mind. Who gave Jesus that authority?
It must have come from a higher source, in order for it to be given to him. But is that possible as Jesus is supposed to be equal with the father?
I found one scripture last night, which i find particularly good. It's in John 7:25-29

25Then some of the Jerusalem people said, is not this the Man they seek to kill?
26And here He is speaking openly, and they say nothing to Him! Can it be possible that the rulers have discovered and know that this is truly the Christ?

27No, we know where this Man comes from; when the Christ arrives, no one is to know from what place He comes.

28Whereupon Jesus called out as He taught in the temple [[c]porches], Do you know Me, and do you know where I am from? I have not come on My own authority and of My own accord and as self-appointed, but the One Who sent Me is true (real, genuine, steadfast); and Him you do not know!

29I know Him [Myself] because I come from His [very] presence, and it was He [personally] Who sent Me.

Once again, Jesus is saying someone other than himself sent him. How could they possibly ever be the same person?? There many more scriptures like
this…

Hi . I don't think we will ever understand God in His fullness with our minds, But for me although the word trinity is not in the Bible I believe that Scriptures Are clear on the diety of God,

Here is how someone else would explain what is called the trinity.. The trinity is not three substances but three person existing simultaneously, which are the one essence, these persons are not seperate from the essence, they subsist in it, Nor are there three essence's that would make them three Gods. God is tri-une as persons but in nature One God.As Athanasius coined the phrase " not dividing the substance nor confusing the persons".

Each person has a position and relashionship to eachother, the essence is not exclusive to only one of these at a time such as the father and at another time the son. All three have exsisted throughout all eternity. If the son owes His exsitance to The Father, or either Changes to become the another, Then niether of them are eternal and self existent. The essence is not divisable among the distictions of persons but indivisable. While we must Guard against seperating the three personages [ tritheism ] we must also be aware of the flaw of there being numerically one, they are distinct but not seperate. None of the persons can exsist without the other they all make up one God in unity. This is why Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily by himself, God cannot be divided, He is one God in His nature but three in persons, It is not a matter of opinion because this is the only conclusion one can come to from the over all body of literture in the Scripture. All three are called God. The Father calls the sone God in Hebrew 1 The Son calls the Father God, All three simutaneously exist.

The Bible never says there is only one person in the God head such as the father only, Nor is it Jesus only, there is a distribution of three persona expressed thoughout eterninty. To Dispense of any of the two persons to have only one at a time, is to eliminate essential beings who comprise the nature of God. The trinity is not in the one God, It is the one God, each person is Equal in essence with none being superior or inferior in that essence of their natutre. Positionally they are different, having an ontological order in the Godhead [ The Father sent the Son, The Son sent the Holy Spirit, the Spirit points back to the son, and the Son Glorifies the Father] The Titles of Father and son are discriptive of persons not roles of office, they are relationship terms. One cannot be a Father without having a son and vice verser. These do not describe what they are. but who they are as persons.

John 7:26 This chapter shows the many reactions people had towards Jesus, they called him a good man [ 7:12] A fraud [ 7:12 ] demon possessed [ 7:20] The messiah [ 7:26 ] and the prophet whose coming was predicted by moses [ 7:40] we must make up our own mind to who Jesus is, knowing whatever we decide will have Eternal consequences..

I am sure some Christians today, are having the same problem accepting who Jesus is and the same Goes for those who Jesus was trying to explain Himself too, they believed in One God and could not except Jesus. Like Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the father, The father and I are one, unless you believe that I AM He and many many more verses were Jesus is trying to convince people who he was..He was accused of blastphemy, The High priest accused Jesus of blastphemy--calling himself God. To the Jews this was a great crime punishable by death [ lev 24:16] The religeous leaders refused even to consider that Jesus words might be true, they had decided to kill Jesus and in so doing they sealed their own fate as well as His. Thank you also for your replies..

 

[michel]

Jackie,

I hope I am not 'butting' in with something irrelevent; actually, from what i understand, this comfirms your interpretation of the 'Trinity' - which is something I continually struggle with myself. I am in no way trying to steal your thunder. I am going to reproduce a post of Scott's :-
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14373&highlight=trinity #1.
Father Cantalamessa on the Trinity

OME, MAY 21, 2005 (Zenit) - In a commentary on this Sunday's Gospel passage, Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa, the preacher of the Pontifical Household, comments that the Trinity is a model for the whole human community because it shows how love creates unity out of diversity.

John (3:16-18)

At that time, Jesus said to Nicodemus: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

The Source of Love

The second reading of today's liturgy, taken from the second letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians, is the one that most directly evokes the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you." But, why do Christians believe in the Trinity? Isn't it difficult enough to believe that God exists, that we must also have added to it the enigma that he is "one and triune?" There are some today who would not be unhappy to leave the Trinity to one side, to be able to dialogue better with Jews and Muslims, who profess faith in a God who is rigidly one.

Christians believe that God is triune because they believe that God is love! It is the revelation of God as love, made by Jesus, which has obliges us to admit the Trinity. It is not a human invention. There is no love for the void, no love that is not directed to someone. So we must ask: who does God love to be defined as love? A first answer might be: He loves mankind. But we have existed for some millions of years, no more. And before then, who did God love? He could not in fact have begun to be love at a certain point in time, because God cannot change.

Second answer: Before then he loved the cosmos, the universe. But the universe has existed for some thousands of millions of years. Before then, who did God love to be able to define himself as love? We cannot say that he loved himself because to love oneself is not love, but egoism or, as psychologists say, narcissism.

Here is the answer of Christian revelation. God is love in himself, before time, because he has always had in himself a Son, the word, whom he loves with an infinite love, that is, in the Holy Spirit. In all love there are always three realities or subjects: one who loves, one who is loved, and the love that unites them.

The God of Christian revelation is one and triune because he is communion of love. Theology has made use of the term "nature" or "substance" to indicate unity in God, and of the term "person" to indicate the distinction. Because of this we say that our God is one God in three persons. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is not a regression, a compromise between monotheism and polytheism. It is a step further that only God himself could make the human mind take.

Let us now turn to some practical considerations. The Trinity is the model of every human community, from the most simple and elemental, which is the family, to the universal Church. It shows how love creates unity out of diversity: unity of intentions, of thought, of will; diversity of subjects, of characteristics and, in the human realm, of sex. And we see, specifically, what a family can learn from the Trinitarian model.

If we read the New Testament with care, we observe a sort of rule. Each one of the three divine persons does not speak about himself, but about the other; does not attract attention to himself, but to the other. Every time the Father speaks in the Gospel he does so always to reveal something of the Son. Jesus, in turn, speaks only of the Father. When the Holy Spirit reaches a believer's heart, he does not teach him to say his name, which in Hebrew is "Ruah," but teaches him to say "Abba," which is the Father's name.

Let's try to think what this style would bring about if it were transferred to family life. The father, who is not so concerned about asserting his authority as that of the mother; the mother, who before teaching the child to say "Mommy," teaches him to say "Daddy." If this style was imitated in our families and communities, they would truly become a reflection of the Trinity on earth, places where love is the rule that governs everything.

[Italian original published by "Famiglia Cristiana"]

[Translation by ZENIT]

www.catholic.org
Even if you have no need for clarification, I think others might benefit......... I rather like the analogies.

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

Hi . I don't think we will ever understand God in His fullness with our minds, But for me although the word trinity is not in the Bible I believe that Scriptures Are clear on the diety of God,

Here is how someone else would explain what is called the trinity.. The trinity is not three substances but three person existing simultaneously, which are the one essence, these persons are not seperate from the essence, they subsist in it, Nor are there three essence's that would make them three Gods. God is tri-une as persons but in nature One God.As Athanasius coined the phrase " not dividing the substance nor confusing the persons".

Each person has a position and relashionship to eachother, the essence is not exclusive to only one of these at a time such as the father and at another time the son. All three have exsisted throughout all eternity. If the son owes His exsitance to The Father, or either Changes to become the another, Then niether of them are eternal and self existent. The essence is not divisable among the distictions of persons but indivisable. While we must Guard against seperating the three personages [ tritheism ] we must also be aware of the flaw of there being numerically one, they are distinct but not seperate. None of the persons can exsist without the other they all make up one God in unity. This is why Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily by himself, God cannot be divided, He is one God in His nature but three in persons, It is not a matter of opinion because this is the only conclusion one can come to from the over all body of literture in the Scripture. All three are called God. The Father calls the sone God in Hebrew 1 The Son calls the Father God, All three simutaneously exist.

The Bible never says there is only one person in the God head such as the father only, Nor is it Jesus only, there is a distribution of three persona expressed thoughout eterninty. To Dispense of any of the two persons to have only one at a time, is to eliminate essential beings who comprise the nature of God. The trinity is not in the one God, It is the one God, each person is Equal in essence with none being superior or inferior in that essence of their natutre. Positionally they are different, having an ontological order in the Godhead [ The Father sent the Son, The Son sent the Holy Spirit, the Spirit points back to the son, and the Son Glorifies the Father] The Titles of Father and son are discriptive of persons not roles of office, they are relationship terms. One cannot be a Father without having a son and vice verser. These do not describe what they are. but who they are as persons.

John 7:26 This chapter shows the many reactions people had towards Jesus, they called him a good man [ 7:12] A fraud [ 7:12 ] demon possessed [ 7:20] The messiah [ 7:26 ] and the prophet whose coming was predicted by moses [ 7:40] we must make up our own mind to who Jesus is, knowing whatever we decide will have Eternal consequences..

I am sure some Christians today, are having the same problem accepting who Jesus is and the same Goes for those who Jesus was trying to explain Himself too, they believed in One God and could not except Jesus. Like Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the father, The father and I are one, unless you believe that I AM He and many many more verses were Jesus is trying to convince people who he was..He was accused of blastphemy, The High priest accused Jesus of blastphemy--calling himself God. To the Jews this was a great crime punishable by death [ lev 24:16] The religeous leaders refused even to consider that Jesus words might be true, they had decided to kill Jesus and in so doing they sealed their own fate as well as His. Thank you also for your replies..

Congratulations! you have confused me even more! No matter how much explaining and trying to put it in understandable terms, the teaching of the trinity is something that will never be understood. even those who believe it end up saying that they will never find out the true identity of God. could that be that it's because they believe in the trinity???
:banghead3

 

[may]

For me ,i find that when the bible is given the correct meaning there is no confusion at all ,so the trinity can not be a bible teaching because it only serves to confuse matters ,and jesus said that everlasting life is based on accurate knowledge of The true God and the one who he sent forth Jesus christ (John 17;3) i am so glad i am not bogged down by the trimmings of the trinitywhich to my mind only stop people coming to an accurate knowledge of Jehovah the true God, and his son Jesus christ.so getting back to the name of Michael, the one who Jehovah used to cleanse the heavens from the rebels .Jesus was given aurthority to get rid of the rebel angels because he was now king of Gods kingdom , it would be no use having rebels in his heavenly Goverment so out they went ,never being allowed back tomake problems , thats why since Michael threw them out up there ,it has been even worse down here on the earth .those rebels know that they are going to be destroyed and they want to take as many people with them as they can

​

And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:




​

"Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, (revelation 12; 7-10) yes, this was when Jesus Christwas made king of Gods kingdom in the heavens in 1914 thats why since then all of the signs that Jesus left us in matthew24 and Lukehave been happening on the earth , Soon Gods kingdom will cleanse the earth as well , and all the rebels and the wicked will be gone and only a global paradise will remain

Back in the early 1800’s, Bible scholar Joseph Benson stated that the description of Michael as found in the Bible "manifestly points out the Messiah." Nineteenth-century Lutheran E. W. Hengstenberg agreed that "Michael is no other than Christ." Similarly, theologian J. P. Lange, when commenting on Revelation 12:7, wrote: "We take it that Michael . . . is, from the outset, Christ in warlike array against Satan." Does the Bible support this identification? Yes, it does

Since Michael is called an archangel, some feel that identifying him as Jesus detracts in some way from Jesus’ dignity or rank. (Jude 9) Yet, the evidence for such an identification led the above-mentioned scholars of Christendom to recognize Michael as Jesus despite the fact that they presumably believed in the Trinity

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

For me ,i find that when the bible is given the correct meaning there is no confusion at all ,so the trinity can not be a bible teaching because it only serves to confuse matters ,and jesus said that everlasting life is based on accurate knowledge of The true God and the one who he sent forth Jesus christ (John 17;3) i am so glad i am not bogged down by the trimmings of the trinitywhich to my mind only stop people coming to an accurate knowledge of Jehovah the true God, and his son Jesus christ.so getting back to the name of Michael, the one who Jehovah used to cleanse the heavens from the rebels .Jesus was given aurthority to get rid of the rebel angels because he was now king of Gods kingdom , it would be no use having rebels in his heavenly Goverment so out they went ,never being allowed back tomake problems , thats why since Michael threw them out up there ,it has been even worse down here on the earth .those rebels know that they are going to be destroyed and they want to take as many people with them as they can

​

And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
​

"Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, (revelation 12; 7-10) yes, this was when Jesus Christwas made king of Gods kingdom in the heavens in 1914 thats why since then all of the signs that Jesus left us in matthew24 and Lukehave been happening on the earth , Soon Gods kingdom will cleanse the earth as well , and all the rebels and the wicked will be gone and only a global paradise will remain

Back in the early 1800’s, Bible scholar Joseph Benson stated that the description of Michael as found in the Bible "manifestly points out the Messiah." Nineteenth-century Lutheran E. W. Hengstenberg agreed that "Michael is no other than Christ." Similarly, theologian J. P. Lange, when commenting on Revelation 12:7, wrote: "We take it that Michael . . . is, from the outset, Christ in warlike array against Satan." Does the Bible support this identification? Yes, it does

Since Michael is called an archangel, some feel that identifying him as Jesus detracts in some way from Jesus’ dignity or rank. (Jude 9) Yet, the evidence for such an identification led the above-mentioned scholars of Christendom to recognize Michael as Jesus despite the fact that they presumably believed in the Trinity

Good point well put. and thanks for getting this thread back on track.

 

[glasgowchick]

Congratulations! you have confused me even more! No matter how much explaining and trying to put it in understandable terms, the teaching of the trinity is something that will never be understood. even those who believe it end up saying that they will never find out the true identity of God. could that be that it's because they believe in the trinity???
:banghead3

Hi I didn't mean to confuse you and I apoligise if I did [ sorry ] But the fact of the matter is, people can try and explain their view on what the trinity is and what it's not..For me I see from Scripture, whatever Jehovah was in the old Testament, applies to eveything Jesus was in the New Testament. God has been manifested, As the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, All three are reffered to as God, All three were there at the begining of creation, The Father, The Word [Jesus ] and the Holy Spirit..All of God was made manifested In Jesus So much it compelled John to write, In the begining was the word and the word was with God and the word Was GOD. And the Word became flesh. Remeber John wrote under inspiration of the Holy Spirit so I am sure he would have corrected John for writing the word was God and told him to write something else. Scripture Tells us That Michael is an Archangel ONE OF THE FOREMOST PRINCES..Nothing more..The same Scriptures tell us who Jesus is. The word was God...Michael is Michael and Grabriel is Gabriel both of the same Stock Archangels.

.As for Jesus well he is --
The Way the Truth and the Life John 14:6
The King--Zec 9:9
King of Kings Lord of Lord --1Tim--6:15
Immanuel--God is with Us --Mathew 1:23
The Lamb--Rev 17:14
King of saints--Rev 15:3
Bread of Life-- John 6:35
Beloved Son--Mat 3:17
Author and finisher Heb 12:2
High Priest--Heb 3:1
Our Passover--1Cor 5:7
Messiah--John 4:25
Son of God--Luke 1:35

He is also reffered to the door, the bridegroom and probably a couple more but never Michael the Archangel..

 

[may]

Hi I didn't mean to confuse you and I apoligise if I did [ sorry ] But the fact of the matter is, people can try and explain their view on what the trinity is and what it's not..For me I see from Scripture, whatever Jehovah was in the old Testament, applies to eveything Jesus was in the New Testament. God has been manifested, As the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, All three are reffered to as God, All three were there at the begining of creation, The Father, The Word [Jesus ] and the Holy Spirit..All of God was made manifested In Jesus So much it compelled John to write, In the begining was the word and the word was with God and the word Was GOD. And the Word became flesh. Remeber John wrote under inspiration of the Holy Spirit so I am sure he would have corrected John for writing the word was God and told him to write something else. Scripture Tells us That Michael is an Archangel ONE OF THE FOREMOST PRINCES..Nothing more..The same Scriptures tell us who Jesus is. The word was God...Michael is Michael and Grabriel is Gabriel both of the same Stock Archangels.

.As for Jesus well he is --
The Way the Truth and the Life John 14:6
The King--Zec 9:9
King of Kings Lord of Lord --1Tim--6:15
Immanuel--God is with Us --Mathew 1:23
The Lamb--Rev 17:14
King of saints--Rev 15:3
Bread of Life-- John 6:35
Beloved Son--Mat 3:17
Author and finisher Heb 12:2
High Priest--Heb 3:1
Our Passover--1Cor 5:7
Messiah--John 4:25
Son of God--Luke 1:35

He is also reffered to the door, the bridegroom and probably a couple more but never Michael the Archangel..

yes Jesus is known by many names and the bible points to michael as being another one