A question about the fate of Enoch, great-grandfather of Noah

[Gargovic Malkav]

This question is mainly directed at Jews/Noahides, Muslims, Baha'i etc. because I think I already know the answer to this question from a Christian perspective, as Paul has given an explanation regarding his fate in the Bible.

So what do you think what happened to Enoch?
Did something special happen to him, or did he die like the others, or was it something else?

 

[crossfire]

Tradition within the circles I frequent have Enoch becoming the Angel Metatron.

 

[rosends]

Here is some discussion from a particular Jewish perspective.

 

[Deeje]

According to my beliefs.......”Enoch was one of the “so great a cloud of witnesses” who were outstanding examples of faith in ancient times. “Enoch kept walking with the true God.” (Ge 5:18, 21-24; Heb 11:5; 12:1) As a prophet of Jehovah, he foretold God’s coming with His holy myriads to execute judgment against the ungodly. (Jude 14, 15)

Likely persecution was brought against him because of his prophesying. However, God did not permit the opposers to kill Enoch. Instead, Jehovah “took him,” that is, cut short his life at the age of 365, an age far below that of most of his contemporaries. Enoch was “transferred so as not to see death,” which may mean that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated Enoch’s life while he was in the trance so that he did not experience the pangs of death. (Ge 5:24; Heb 11:5, 13)

However, he was not taken to heaven, in view of Jesus’ clear statement at John 3:13. It appears that, as in the case of Moses’ body, Jehovah disposed of Enoch’s body, for “he was nowhere to be found.”—De 34:5, 6; Jude 9.

Enoch is not the writer of the “Book of Enoch.” This is an uninspired, apocryphal book written many centuries later, probably sometime during the second and first centuries B.C.E.”
(Excerpts from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001371)

 

[sealchan]

This question is mainly directed at Jews/Noahides, Muslims, Baha'i etc. because I think I already know the answer to this question from a Christian perspective, as Paul has given an explanation regarding his fate in the Bible.

So what do you think what happened to Enoch?
Did something special happen to him, or did he die like the others, or was it something else?

For me the scripture which mentions Enoch is intriguing because it says so little but that little is highly interesting. I believe that this must have been a reference to a known figure who the author wanted to mention or acknowledge but yet at the same time there was no more specific reason for the author to include further details or it would have been undesirable distracting to the authors purpose to have gone any deeper into Enoch. A lot of Genesis seems to want to take pre-existing narratives and repurpose them for a new narrative focused on the Jewish God. Each story is carefully crafted and neither too little nor too much is told.

So my question is who was Enoch such that a reference to his story was deemed both valuable and yet too distracting?

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

So my question is who was Enoch such that a reference to his story was deemed both valuable and yet too distracting?

Perhaps it was more like an honorable mention of sorts?

 

[sealchan]

Perhaps it was more like an honorable mention of sorts?

It could be. It would be good to know what, if any, story this tidbit about Enoch is in reference to. I recently started listening to a lecture on the influence of contemporary myth on the formation of Genesis and it seems the Enuma Elish was clearly a big source of material. The Genesis creation story seems very much like a direct commentary on the Babylonian story in a way referencing it as "given" yet, at the same time, completely changing the tone and importance of its elements. I expect putting the two side by side would make for a very interesting study.

Enoch seems like his story must have some reference...like so much of Genesis (in fact, I have found the core themes of the Mahabharata in the story of Jacob). Knowing that reference will say a great deal about why the author of Genesis spoke of Enoch.

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

In several texts I have read and am reading, Enoch was transformed into Metatron (in 3 Hebrew Enoch especially) because this was the idea of the generation of the Divine Son. It is also the introduction to those so inclined to recognize there is a way to a greater life for mankind. Leonora Leet's books are especially useful along this line. The Jewish scholar Joseph Dan has explored this a lot in relation to the mysticism of Judaism's Late Antiquity thinking into the medieval ages of the Ashkenazi Jews in Germany and France in the 12-13th centuries.

Enoch's ascension was in earlier Judaism while in the medieval times it appears the emphasis in mystical thinking evolved into more exegesis and working through texts rather than specific ascension practices. Dan does approach everything from a historian's perspective, not a religious practicing mystic, which, I get the impression, he is not all that impressed with. That's ok, everyone has an approach which they work with. It is a remarkable subject. Human being transformed into the divine is the them in the story of Enoch, along with the Throne of God can be approached but you need to be prepared through knowledge and practice first, its not like you can get into your car and just drive there carefree and enjoy the scenery.

 

[sealchan]

In several texts I have read and am reading, Enoch was transformed into Metatron (in 3 Hebrew Enoch especially) because this was the idea of the generation of the Divine Son. It is also the introduction to those so inclined to recognize there is a way to a greater life for mankind. Leonora Leet's books are especially useful along this line. The Jewish scholar Joseph Dan has explored this a lot in relation to the mysticism of Judaism's Late Antiquity thinking into the medieval ages of the Ashkenazi Jews in Germany and France in the 12-13th centuries.

Enoch's ascension was in earlier Judaism while in the medieval times it appears the emphasis in mystical thinking evolved into more exegesis and working through texts rather than specific ascension practices. Dan does approach everything from a historian's perspective, not a religious practicing mystic, which, I get the impression, he is not all that impressed with. That's ok, everyone has an approach which they work with. It is a remarkable subject. Human being transformed into the divine is the them in the story of Enoch, along with the Throne of God can be approached but you need to be prepared through knowledge and practice first, its not like you can get into your car and just drive there carefree and enjoy the scenery.

Good stuff. I will look up these authors.

If Genesis is in large measures composed as an inspired reaction to existing contemporary myth, I find it interesting to set this story against others from its time. I have recently read a telling of the labors of Heracles (see https://www.georgeoconnorbooks.com/olympians) which is a Greek story about a mortal who is promoted to the status of a god. In that telling the body is left behind in Hades and the soul rises to Mt. Olympus. In the Jewish Bible, where one is never separated from one's body the idea that Enoch was "and he was not, for God took him" (ESV) indicates a preservation of that idea as opposed to the story I referenced.

Also, we have, for comparison to a later historical process of the divination of an individual, Bart Ehrman's exploration of the process by which Jesus became seen as divine which this YouTube video series presents:

How Jesus Became God - UCC Part 1 of 3

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

Yes, the two famous gents from Judaism, Enoch and Elijah who ascended bodily into heaven are an exception. That's interesting to see the contrast with the Greek theme, thanks for pointing me to that one. It isn't until we get to Rabbi Akiva and the Jews post 70 A.D. that we begin to hear about people ascending to heaven to see the Throne, ala Ezekiel's throne vision in chapter 1. But the rabbis come back, except in the famous story of the 4 who ascended and only one came back. The ascensions, interestingly enough didn't continue, but disappeared (according to Joseph Dan at least) in the historical records until way after the Gaonic period beginning in the 12th and 13th centuries.

And even then, it appears based on what sources have survived and we can access them that it is more like exposition instead of mystic practice which the medieval Ashkenazai Hasidim are engaging in. Even the Zohar it is not instructions for practicing, but more of description of the heavens and throne rather than how to get to it. The earlier Sefer Yetzirah is more about cosmology and cosmogony as the Bahir is, thought it elaborates more on the Hebrew letters. It's fascinating to see the evolving way of mystical enlightenment. Fun stuff to learn for sure!

 

[The Anointed]

This question is mainly directed at Jews/Noahides, Muslims, Baha'i etc. because I think I already know the answer to this question from a Christian perspective, as Paul has given an explanation regarding his fate in the Bible.

So what do you think what happened to Enoch?
Did something special happen to him, or did he die like the others, or was it something else?

Not too much is known about Enoch by the average punter, because even though the books of Enoch from which Jesus and his apostles taught, were cherished by the early Christians right up until the fourth century, when, under the ban of such dogmatic authorities of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, as Hilary, Jerome, and Augustine, they were to eventually be condemned by the church of Rome in the the fifth century, as being heretical, and by the middle of the fifth century, they finally passed out of circulation and were thought Lost for millennia.

The oldest known Jewish work not included in the canon of Constantine’s universal church, is the Book of Enoch. This is a complex work, the known COPIES (I REPEAT . . . COPIES) of which were written in the third (or perhaps even the late fourth) century BCE, after the return from the Babylonian Exile and the establishment of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (6th-5th centuries BCE) and before the Maccabean revolt in 172 BCE.

The oldest COPIES of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third or late fourth century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls

Among the Dead Sea Scrolls were a number of manuscripts of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, including ten manuscripts of the Book of Enoch in the original Aramaic (until then copies were extant only in an Ethiopic translation of a Greek translation of a Semitic original), which were vital to answering many questions about its origins. Dating of the manuscripts by their script shows that certain parts of Enoch are at least as old as the third century BCE.

I believe, and will later reveal if necessary, that there is ample evidence to support the belief that the original Books of Enoch, the latest COPIES of which were discovered among the Dead Sea scrolls, date back much earlier than the 4th century, and that the originals were taken from Egypt, the land of first born, by Moses.

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

I believe, and will later reveal if necessary, that there is ample evidence to support the belief that the original Books of Enoch, the latest COPIES of which were discovered among the Dead Sea scrolls, date back much earlier than the 4th century, and that the originals were taken from Egypt, the land of first born, by Moses.

I would be interested in seeing the materials and your ideas on this. Could be interesting!