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A Question for fellow Christians.

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
On two or three Christian forums I post at, we are having numerous debates about how one is saved.

I believe that each person alive is called and it is up to each person to answer the call.

The conflicting belief is that only people God has chosen to be called are called and anyone who doesn't become saved is because God didn't choose them to be saved.

So I am wondering what the Christians at the RF believe. Do you believe anyone can be saved or only those chosen by God to be saved?
 

Ringer

Jar of Clay
From what I can tell, the bible teaches both concepts. Don't ask me how to explain but I don't think there's such a clear cut answer. For instance, the bible makes it clear that God's invisible qualities are made known to man so that they are without excuse. We all have the opportunity to answer to the call of God because it is something mankind has a desire for.

On the other hand, I believe the bible also teaches that God hardens the heart of some so that they will not be receptive to the gospel message. These people choose darkness over the light for whatever reason.

I understand many people have issues with this because it doesn't seem fair. Why would God create someone to purposely not accept the gift of salvation and enter into a relationship with Jesus? I think it's one of those things I'll be asking in heaven. The verses that comes to mind is in Romans 9.

Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I believe that each person alive is called and it is up to each person to answer the call.

The conflicting belief is that only people God has chosen to be called are called and anyone who doesn't become saved is because God didn't choose them to be saved.

So I am wondering what the Christians at the RF believe. Do you believe anyone can be saved or only those chosen by God to be saved?
I believe as you do, Christine. What kind of a loving Father in Heaven would condemn someone to Hell for no reason at all, particularly someone who actually loves Him and wants to be His child?

Luke 11:10-13 says, "For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

Honestly, I can't see how anyone could possibly believe otherwise, but I've run into plenty of people who do, so what do I know?
 

Francine

Well-Known Member
I believe as you do, Christine. What kind of a loving Father in Heaven would condemn someone to tell for no reason at all, particularly someone who actually loves Him and wants to be His child?

Don't ask and don't tell. ;)

The concept of grace seems to get short shrift these days. I like to call it slack. For those who believe in Christ's death and resurrection, God gives us slack. For free.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
I believe God will save every person.

then why be in a religion? why not go do whatever you want since ur gunna be saved anyways? if you wanna kill go kill? if you want to cheat on your wife? do it. sure it doesn;t matter cause i'm saved anwyays.

"eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die"
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
then why be in a religion? why not go do whatever you want since ur gunna be saved anyways? if you wanna kill go kill? if you want to cheat on your wife? do it. sure it doesn;t matter cause i'm saved anwyays.

"eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die"
The point of espousing a religion isn't "to be saved." Salvation isn't a reward. Salvation is an act of God's mercy. The point of espousing a religion is to help one with life's journey, within an understanding of a relationship between God and humanity.

"Whatever I want" is to act out my faith in a manner that is congruent with Christ's teachings. Murder and adultery are not congruent. Therefore, I do not wish to engage in such. It does matter, because it would seriously undermine my relationship with God.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
The point of espousing a religion isn't "to be saved." Salvation isn't a reward. Salvation is an act of God's mercy. The point of espousing a religion is to help one with life's journey, within an understanding of a relationship between God and humanity.

"Whatever I want" is to act out my faith in a manner that is congruent with Christ's teachings. Murder and adultery are not congruent. Therefore, I do not wish to engage in such. It does matter, because it would seriously undermine my relationship with God.

how would it undermine your relationship with God? it doesn't matter anways because you're saved already.
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
On two or three Christian forums I post at, we are having numerous debates about how one is saved.

I believe that each person alive is called and it is up to each person to answer the call.

The conflicting belief is that only people God has chosen to be called are called and anyone who doesn't become saved is because God didn't choose them to be saved.

So I am wondering what the Christians at the RF believe. Do you believe anyone can be saved or only those chosen by God to be saved?

This is one of the hardest questions still debated by many scholars today. God wills all to be saved but we must cooperate. This is a sticky question. God know who will and who won't be saved. People have free will. So God knows who will obey him because he is God. Yet he wills for all to be saved. Apart from God's grace we can do nothing. We can't even have faith apart from God giving us his grace to do so. We Catholics do beleive in some forms of predestination. we have to because the bible mentions the the concept about 4 times in the NT. There are different Catholic theories that many theologians are allowed to have because the Vatican has not come down and formally defined anything yet. One of them is as follows. Some are predestined to grace(initial salvation, coming to Christ) but not to come to final glory(Staying with Christ and persevering until the end). Some are predestined to both grace and glory. Jesus makes references to these in parables. Yet God never predestines anyone for hell. There free will is the agent for such things. God just honors their will. Perhaps this is one of the hardest mysteries of the faith to understand. I remember studying a chapter on predestination in my theology class 3 years ago. It was a headache and was the hardest chapter to study.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
how would it undermine your relationship with God? it doesn't matter anways because you're saved already.
Stop and think about this for a minute, MH... Sojourner's perspective isn't too awfully different from ours in this regard. He believes everyone will end up in Heaven. We believe that the vast, vast majority of people will end up in Heaven. Isn't it kind of refreshing to hear that there are Christians who actually believe that God loves us that much!
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
I believe we choose life or death. I believe salvation is extended to us all. Perhaps, we've already been "elected" in the sense that God knows our hearts and knows what we will choose but I believe the choice has been given to us.
 

Francine

Well-Known Member
Stop and think about this for a minute, MH... Sojourner's perspective isn't too awfully different from ours in this regard. He believes everyone will end up in Heaven. We believe that the vast, vast majority of people will end up in Heaven.

Jesus says a slim minority end up in Heaven.

Matt.7:[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Jesus says a slim minority end up in Heaven.

Matt.7:[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
If you interpret "life" to mean Heaven, that's what He said. To us, that's not what it means. We believe that "life" refers to the "fullness of eternal life," or Exaltation. It would probably not be an overstatement to say that a slim minority will end up being exalted.
 

Francine

Well-Known Member
If you interpret "life" to mean Heaven, that's what He said. To us, that's not what it means. We believe that "life" refers to the "fullness of eternal life," or Exaltation. It would probably not be an overstatement to say that a slim minority will end up being exalted.

While the bible affirms different degrees of glory, according to our works, and Catholics affirm a period of purgation prior to being admitted to the Beatific Vision, in the end, a person's name is either written in the Book of Life, or they are not written there. And that results in passing to Christ's left hand, or to his right. There is no Door Number Three.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe we all end up in God's love... whether that love is bliss or torment depends on us...
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
how would it undermine your relationship with God? it doesn't matter anways because you're saved already.
"Being saved" does not release me from the responsibility of loving God and loving my neighbor. In fact, it increases that responsibility. Why? Because, as a Child of God, I am also a servant of God -- bound to God's will. That relationship would be seriously undermined if I failed to love my neighbor in such a fashion. By not loving my neighbor, I do not love God (When you did it to one of the least of these, you did it to me).
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
If this is true, Christians will have a tougher judgment day.
to whom much is given, much is expected. That being said, I think we are our own worst critics. I think the judgment we will face on that day will be the judgment with which we have judged ourselves, as juxtaposed against the unbridled love of God for each of us. Jesus will say, "Well done, good and faithful servant." And we will want to say, "But, but, but...look how wonderful God is, as opposed to how we are!" and, when the Father wraps all of us prodigals in his arms, we shall be truly reconciled.
 
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