A Question for fellow Christians.

[Sola'lor]

The point of espousing a religion isn't "to be saved." Salvation isn't a reward. Salvation is an act of God's mercy. The point of espousing a religion is to help one with life's journey, within an understanding of a relationship between God and humanity.

"Whatever I want" is to act out my faith in a manner that is congruent with Christ's teachings. Murder and adultery are not congruent. Therefore, I do not wish to engage in such. It does matter, because it would seriously undermine my relationship with God.

Hmm. I thought religion was to allow a means for people to partake of the covenants and ordinances neccessary to enter God's presence.

 

[Francine]

I believe we all end up in God's love... whether that love is bliss or torment depends on us...

This is an idea found in the Eastern Orthodox Church. But when you say it "depends on us" it seems to negate the initiative of the Father and the unique role of Jesus Christ in our salvation. Protestants call it "works based salvation". Catholics call it Pelagianism.

 

[lunamoth]

On two or three Christian forums I post at, we are having numerous debates about how one is saved.

I believe that each person alive is called and it is up to each person to answer the call.

The conflicting belief is that only people God has chosen to be called are called and anyone who doesn't become saved is because God didn't choose them to be saved.

So I am wondering what the Christians at the RF believe. Do you believe anyone can be saved or only those chosen by God to be saved?

I wonder if any of the Israelites decided to remain in Egypt.

Hehe sorry, just a brain bubble.

I agree all are called and some respond, and there is an imperceptible distinction between the calling and the responding. The Holy Spirit leads, we follow, but when the music starts who can tell who moved first?

 

[sojourner]

Hmm. I thought religion was to allow a means for people to partake of the covenants and ordinances neccessary to enter God's presence.

That's part of it, but not (I believe) the main thrust. Covenants and ordinances are wonderful things, and they do make God present to us, but your idea places the Church system as the mediator of salvation, and not the people (as Church), who act upon the prompting of God to return home.

 

[sojourner]

This is an idea found in the Eastern Orthodox Church. But when you say it "depends on us" it seems to negate the initiative of the Father and the unique role of Jesus Christ in our salvation. Protestants call it "works based salvation". Catholics call it Pelagianism.

Pelagius got a bad rap. He stood opposed to the God-Good/Human-bad stance of Augustine. He held that human beings are inherently good, and that we choose to cover up our goodness with sin. Therefore, baptism doesn't "make us good and acceptable." Baptism "washes the sin away, so that the good can be realized and embraced."

 

[Francine]

Pelagius got a bad rap. He stood opposed to the God-Good/Human-bad stance of Augustine. He held that human beings are inherently good, and that we choose to cover up our goodness with sin. Therefore, baptism doesn't "make us good and acceptable." Baptism "washes the sin away, so that the good can be realized and embraced."

Catholic soteriology does not reject Pelagius altogether. By calling for the necessity of the human will to cooperate with divine grace, it has been described as semi-Pelagian. What is rejected is the idea that the human will can theoretically bridge the gulf between God and man solely by our own efforts at sanctification. This would eliminate the absolute necessity for Jesus Christ as our Savior.

 

[Ratiocinative]

Everyone has free will. If you don't believe me, then try this: Decide to do something, and then do it. Did God stop you? Of course not, because he gave us free will. If you use your free will to decide to have faith in Jesus, then you will be saved, if not, then you won't. It isn't anymore complicated than that.

 

[Katzpur]

Everyone has free will. If you don't believe me, then try this: Decide to do something, and then do it. Did God stop you? Of course not, because he gave us free will. If you use your free will to decide to have faith in Jesus, then you will be saved, if not, then you won't. It isn't anymore complicated than that.

Actually, it is. Suppose you never heard of Jesus? Please don't tell me that everybody who has ever lived has heard of Jesus. You and I both know that's not the case.

 

[Ratiocinative]

Actually, it is. Suppose you never heard of Jesus? Please don't tell me that everybody who has ever lived has heard of Jesus. You and I both know that's not the case.

Everyone has heard of Jesus. Even in the Old Testament the people knew that a redeemer was coming, even though they did not know his name. Knowing his name is not the important part. What is important is knowing that God has made intercession for our sins; that we deserve to be punished, but God decided to save us despite that. There is also a difference between not knowing about Christ, and never attempting to learn about Christ. Romans 1 says that there is no excuse for not knowing God because creation has been telling us all about him. Psalms 19 says similar things, that creation has been telling us about God for all of time.

John 14:6 is pretty definitive:

John 14:6 (NLT) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

And it also says in Romans 3:23-26, that Jesus was not only a sacrifice for people that lived after him, but also the people before:

Romans 3:23-26 (NLT) 23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

Faith in Jesus is the only way to be saved, there is no other way.

 

[zookeeper]

The point of espousing a religion isn't "to be saved." Salvation isn't a reward. Salvation is an act of God's mercy. The point of espousing a religion is to help one with life's journey, within an understanding of a relationship between God and humanity.

"Whatever I want" is to act out my faith in a manner that is congruent with Christ's teachings. Murder and adultery are not congruent. Therefore, I do not wish to engage in such. It does matter, because it would seriously undermine my relationship with God.

i agree with that. all of us are saved. it is a gift from god. the difference is in our exaltation. in the lds religion we believe that we all here chose to come to earth and be tested. this simple act gave us all the gift of salvation. our definition of salvation is eternal life. our actions, faithfulness, relationship with god, etc...all together affect our exaltation. that referring to our situation in the next life. its really a merciful concept

 

[blackout]

Jesus says a slim minority end up in Heaven.

Matt.7:[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Or perhaps "life" means the kingdom of God now.
The kingdom of God within.
Dare I say I have found it?
More like stumbled on in.
(no, I'm not christian.
I know my faith is of a different kind-
still I believe my post is relevant to the conversation.)

 

[sandandfoam]

Or perhaps "life" means the kingdom of God now.
The kingdom of God within.
Dare I say I have found it?
More like stumbled on in.
(no, I'm not christian.
I know my faith is of a different kind-
still I believe my post is relevant to the conversation.)

I am reading about the ninth century Irish theologan and philosopher Eriugena, he thought of paradise as something that we aren't seperated from in time or by space. He thought of paradise as representing the true image of God within us that we are seperated from by degrees of wholeness.
I think you two might be in agreement.

 

[Ratiocinative]

Or perhaps "life" means the kingdom of God now.
The kingdom of God within.
Dare I say I have found it?
More like stumbled on in.
(no, I'm not christian.
I know my faith is of a different kind-
still I believe my post is relevant to the conversation.)

Obviously you're not. The first thing a Christian realizes is that Christianity is not about what you can get in this life, it is about what you will receive after this life. This type of thinking, that the life God has promised is here on Earth, has been around a very long time and Paul talks about this in Romans, saying that if this life we have been promised is on this Earth, then why would he and others be risking their lives on a daily basis? Jesus also said that you should not worry about things like food and clothing, and to be content with however little you have. Life in the Bible almost always refers to Heaven.

 

[blackout]

Obviously you're not. The first thing a Christian realizes is that Christianity is not about what you can get in this life, it is about what you will receive after this life. This type of thinking, that the life God has promised is here on Earth, has been around a very long time and Paul talks about this in Romans, saying that if this life we have been promised is on this Earth, then why would he and others be risking their lives on a daily basis? Jesus also said that you should not worry about things like food and clothing, and to be content with however little you have. Life in the Bible almost always refers to Heaven.

Did I say one single word in my post about "getting" things?
It's about growing longer branches...
and rising up as three measures of yeast...
(where's the JOY smiley?)

But "no worries". One day you'll "get" it too. :slap:
EDIT:
(BTW... that would be me slapping myself on your behalf!)

 

[Ratiocinative]

Did I say one single word in my post about "getting" things?
It's about growing longer branches...
and rising up as three measures of yeast...
(where's the JOY smiley?)

But "no worries". One day you'll "get" it too. :slap:

I never said anything about gathering material things, I'm pretty sure that most people realize that things don't give happiness. I said that Christianity is not a promise of life on Earth. The apostles would not have been giving their lives if life on Earth was the promise they were looking forward to.

 

[blackout]

I never said anything about gathering material things, I'm pretty sure that most people realize that things don't give happiness. I said that Christianity is not a promise of life on Earth. The apostles would not have been giving their lives if life on Earth was the promise they were looking forward to.

Well as we have already established "christianity" is not my thing,
still much attributed to Y'shua still interests me personally.

"The kingdom of God is in the Midst of You".
I like it. It's true for me. In my own experience.

If you choose to believe that "the Kingdom of God comes without perception"
after you are dead and gone from this earth...
I would say....well... you ARE inDeed a Christian!

I really shouldn't be in this forum I guess,
but I was a devout christian for almost 10 years
and still have some interest in these conversations.

Thanks for being so gracious with me in your Christian forum.

UltraViolet

 

[Ratiocinative]

Well as we have already established "christianity" is not my thing,
still much attributed to Y'shua still interests me personally.

"The kingdom of God is in the Midst of You".
I like it. It's true for me. In my own experience.

If you choose to believe that "the Kingdom of God comes without perception"
after you are dead and gone from this earth...
I would say....well... you ARE inDeed a Christian!

I really shouldn't be in this forum I guess,
but I was a devout christian for almost 10 years
and still have some interest in these conversations.

Thanks for being so gracious with me in your Christian forum.

UltraViolet

The Kingdom of God is not a place, if that's what your trying to say, it's people. The Kingdom of God refers to anyone that will be part of God's eternal kingdom in heaven, which is Christians and any other beings that are already with God. So the part of the Kingdom of Heaven that is on Earth is the believers themselves, as nothing else on this Earth will be part of God's eternal Kingdom.

 

[blackout]

The Kingdom of God is not a place, if that's what your trying to say, it's people. The Kingdom of God refers to anyone that will be part of God's eternal kingdom in heaven, which is Christians and any other beings that are already with God. So the part of the Kingdom of Heaven that is on Earth is the believers themselves, as nothing else on this Earth will be part of God's eternal Kingdom.

A heightened (yeast) opened (branches) experience of Life/Reality
of course comes along with an observer/experiencer/co-creator (ie "person").
So okay yes. It's people living out an ever heightened/deepened/lifted/risen/opened
experience of LIFE. It's life beyond the illusion(s) of this world.
The one behind the curtain.

But certainly we will each see what we see.

 

[Sola'lor]

A heightened (yeast) opened (branches) experience of Life/Reality
of course comes along with an observer/experiencer/co-creator (ie "person").
So okay yes. It's people living out an ever heightened/deepened/lifted/risen/opened
experience of LIFE. It's life beyond the illusion(s) of this world.
The one behind the curtain.

But certainly we will each see what we see.

UltraViolet, I can read your word but nothing you say ever makes any sense to me.

 

[blackout]

UltraViolet, I can read your word but nothing you say ever makes any sense to me.

That's ok.
The science type posts usually make my head implode.
(by what theory or equation I could not tell you)
And bible verse paint ball always turns out looking like
a work of abstract modern art on the canvas of my mind...:areyoucra