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A question for the Jehovah's Witnesses

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
I want to ask about this weblink: https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/god-omnipresent/

at the very bottom of this weblink it has this:

Misconception: Psalm 139:8 teaches that God is omnipresent by saying: “If I were to ascend to heaven, you would be there, and if I were to make my bed in the Grave, look! you would be there.”

Fact: This scripture is not talking about God’s location. It poetically teaches that no place is too remote for God to act in our behalf.

If God can act on our behalf no matter what.What about the grave?Were we cease to exist?Mind body and soul?According to Jehovah's Witnesses?:):confused:
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
I want to ask about this weblink: https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/god-omnipresent/

at the very bottom of this weblink it has this:

Misconception: Psalm 139:8 teaches that God is omnipresent by saying: “If I were to ascend to heaven, you would be there, and if I were to make my bed in the Grave, look! you would be there.”

Fact: This scripture is not talking about God’s location. It poetically teaches that no place is too remote for God to act in our behalf.

If God can act on our behalf no matter what.What about the grave?Were we cease to exist?Mind body and soul?According to Jehovah's Witnesses?:):confused:
Perhaps Jesus' answer to those who did not believe in the resurrection will help you:

Luke 20:37 But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”

Even humans remember our loved ones, and we can save photos and even videos of them when they were alive. Can't God remember those who no longer live?

Rom. 4:16 (...) Abraham. (He is the father of us all, 17 just as it is written: “I have appointed you a father of many nations.”) This was in the sight of the One in whom he had faith, even of God, who makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they were. 18 Although beyond hope, yet based on hope he had faith, that he might become the father of many nations in accord with what had been said: “So your seed will be.”

He made Adam out of the dust of the ground and gave him life!
 

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
Perhaps Jesus' answer to those who did not believe in the resurrection will help you:

Luke 20:37 But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”

Even humans remember our loved ones, and we can save photos and even videos of them when they were alive. Can't God remember those who no longer live?

Rom. 4:16 (...) Abraham. (He is the father of us all, 17 just as it is written: “I have appointed you a father of many nations.”) This was in the sight of the One in whom he had faith, even of God, who makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they were. 18 Although beyond hope, yet based on hope he had faith, that he might become the father of many nations in accord with what had been said: “So your seed will be.”

He made Adam out of the dust of the ground and gave him life!

I like your reply.I just wish more people who our Jehovah's Witness would reply.:)
 

TiggerII

Active Member
God is a spirit person (see New Bible Dictionary - p. 427), which means that he does not have a material body, but a spiritual one: We read, “If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one” (1 Cor. 15:44; John 4:24). God, being an individual, a person with a spirit body, has a place where he resides, and so he could not be bodily present at any other place at the same time. Thus we read at 1 Kings 8:43 that the heavens are God’s “dwelling place” - KJV. Also we see at Hebrews 9:24 that “Christ has entered ... into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.” - RSV.

Moreover, the disciple Stephen and the Apostle John had visions of heaven in which they saw both God and Jesus. So God must be as much a person, an individual, as Jesus Christ is (Acts 7:56; Rev. 5:1, 9).

Those Christians who will live in heaven are assured that they will see God and also be like him, showing that Jehovah is truly a person and has a body as well as a certain location. - 1 John 3:2.

Some may have been confused due to the fact that God is all-seeing; also his power can be felt everywhere (2 Chron. 16:9). An illustration of this might be the comparison of an electric power plant to God. It has a certain location on a certain street in a certain city. But its power can be distributed out over the entire city, providing light, power, communications, etc. And so it is with God. He has a certain location in heaven, but his active force, his holy spirit, furnishes enlightenment, and its force can be felt throughout the entire universe so that God can perfectly “see” any particle of his universe and powerfully act (through that spirit force) anywhere in that universe.

Although the Bible repeatedly warns that God’s worshipers are not to presume to make any likeness of him, it does use human characteristics in describing God. Thus the Bible speaks of God’s face, eyes, ears, nostrils, mouth, arms, and feet. Of course, such descriptive figurative language does not mean that his spirit body actually has the same kind of members as fleshly human bodies have. But such expressions are helpful to us, inasmuch as Jehovah God becomes more real to us.

Some trinitarians attempt to prove that Jesus shares with the Father an “untransferrable quality of God” known as “omnipresence.” But the scriptures they cite (such as John 6:56 and 14:23) do not indicate omnipresence for either God or Jesus. Certainly the most likely meaning for Jesus’ “dwelling” or “abiding in” (or with) people is that they have accepted his sacrifice for them and do their utmost to live in harmony (in union) with Jesus’ example and teachings! It shows a union of agreement in purpose and will. Jesus’ will has become their very own.

It is the same concept as used for all those who “walked with God” or who were “with God” or who could say “God is with us” (analyze Phil. 4:9). It did not mean they were literally in the personal physical presence of God but that they were sincerely trying to follow, or be in union with, God’s purposes and commandments, thereby pleasing him well or being “with” him. - Gen. 5:22; 6:9; Lev. 26:3, 21; 1 Kings 11:33; Malachi 2:6.

We need to understand exactly what “omnipresence” means. It is not a word found in the Scriptures nor a concept explained or used there. It is a concept developed and explained by philosophers:
“Omnipresence - property (of deity) of being in all places and things .... Omnipresence is opposed, not only to total, but also to partial, absence, or localization - action upon this thing and not upon that” - p. 546, An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm (ed.), 1945.

In other words, an omnipresent God could not be “in” one thing and not “in” another! Or “with” one and not “with” another. nor can an omnipresent God be said to be in any one specific location (e.g., “in heaven”) - see Ps. 33:13, 14; 115:3.

Therefore, you must not (if you are really saying God is omnipresent) say that God was with David, but not with Saul (1 Sam. 18:12). Obviously, having God “with” you does not indicate Omnipresence!

The scriptures often cited (John 6:56; 14:23) show persons accepting Jesus’ sacrifice and living in harmony with his teachings and example - “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.” (John 6:56) If you should insist on taking the last half of that scripture literally, then you would be equally justified in taking the first half absolutely literally!

If Jesus were omnipresent, as some say, he would already be in everyone and everything. He would literally be in the most blasphemous of unrepentant sinners. Instead, this scripture shows he is only “in” certain ones who truly accept his ransom sacrifice and act accordingly. (You cannot truly accept his sacrifice and then fail to act accordingly.)

Notice how harmony in purpose (not Omnipresence) is obviously meant here: not only is Jesus “in” these people, but they are “IN” HIM! The will and purpose of the one becomes the will and purpose of the other (see my John 10:30 study - ONE), in perfect harmony, but those Christians are not showing their “Omnipresence” by being “IN” Jesus any more than Jesus is showing “omnipresence” by being “in” them! They are “keeping his words” and are therefore “in” (in harmony with) him and his Father - John 14:23, 24. Those who are not “keeping his words” are not in harmony or union and therefore are not “in” him, and he is not “in” them. (This is certainly not Omnipresence!) Compare the “whole world” being “in” Satan - 1 John 5:19. The NIV interprets this as “the whole world is under the control of the evil one.” (“in the power of the evil one” - RSV, AT, NASB, CBW, cf. MLB, LB).

Some trinitarians have shown a similar understanding of these figurative expressions when they speak of the necessity of accepting Jesus “so he can make himself at home with you” or “can come into your heart.” If Jesus were really Omnipresent, he would already be in everyone’s heart! But, as these trinitarians indicate, before you can truly be in harmony with him, you must accept him as Savior and Christ and be obedient to him and his God. Then, and only then, can he be “in” you, and you can be “in” him—this is certainly not omnipresence, but obvious figurative language! (Surely no one would ever insist on taking Phil. 1:7 literally where Paul says he has all the Christian brothers of Philippi “in my heart”!)

Notice how clearly a figurative meaning is intended at John 17:20-23: “(20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (21) that they may all be one [all those who believe the words of the Apostles concerning Jesus]; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us ... (22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one.” - KJV.

IF Jesus must be equally God, then we see Jesus in this scripture telling us that men are also to be equally God. And if Jesus is omnipresent because he is “in” others, then clearly Jesus is telling us here that real Christians are also to be Omnipresent! But trinitarians say omnipresence is an untransferrable quality of God alone! (Isn’t it much better to admit the clear, figurative meaning of “in” and “abiding with,” etc.?) - cf. Jn 17:20-23 AT, CBW.

Clearly Jesus is speaking of being “one” as being “in harmony with” just as his being “in” the Father (and Christians being “in” Jesus and “in” the Father) shows a complete harmony of purpose, not some mysterious non-scriptural “omnipresence”! If Christ were truly “omnipresent” and literally “dwells in us” and “in” everything, what are such scriptures as 2 Cor. 5:6-9 trying to tell us?

It might be profitable to consider why God deals with men through angels, prophets, etc. It would certainly be easier, faster, clearer, and more certain (if God were truly physically present in all things) to just speak directly and cut out the “middle men.” Why, for example, take the time and bother to send an angel all the way to earth to appear in a burning bush to speak to Moses on behalf of God?

If God were omnipresent, he would have spoken directly from the burning bush himself! Or, even more likely, (if God were truly Omnipresent) He would have spoken out right in Moses’ brain! (“Moses, this is Jehovah God speaking. To prove it is I, watch that bush burst into flames and continue to burn as long as I speak to you. Here’s what I want you to do ....”)

And why would Jesus have to declare the only true God (or “explain him” - NASB; “Make him known” - NEB, RSV, JB) - Jn 1:18? If God were omnipresent, he certainly wouldn’t have to send another person from his physical presence in heaven to declare or make himself known. And why would Jesus bother to speak to John through an angel to send essential information to fellow Christians if he were also Omnipresent? - Rev. 1:1-3.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I like your reply.I just wish more people who our Jehovah's Witness would reply.:)
Why? @Eli G and I “speak in agreement”(1 Corinthians 1:10). I would just be repeating what he said.

And he said / wrote it well!

Keep on sending me notices, though, Frank. But I probably won’t repeat what’s already been said by another JW, it would just be redundant.

Take care, my cousin.
 

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
Why? @Eli G and I “speak in agreement”(1 Corinthians 1:10). I would just be repeating what he said.

And he said / wrote it well!

Keep on sending me notices, though, Frank. But I probably won’t repeat what’s already been said by another JW, it would just be redundant.

Take care, my cousin.

Thanks for replying anyway!:)
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
God is a spirit person (see New Bible Dictionary - p. 427), which means that he does not have a material body, but a spiritual one: We read, “If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one” (1 Cor. 15:44; John 4:24). God, being an individual, a person with a spirit body, has a place where he resides, and so he could not be bodily present at any other place at the same time. Thus we read at 1 Kings 8:43 that the heavens are God’s “dwelling place” - KJV. Also we see at Hebrews 9:24 that “Christ has entered ... into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.” - RSV.

Moreover, the disciple Stephen and the Apostle John had visions of heaven in which they saw both God and Jesus. So God must be as much a person, an individual, as Jesus Christ is (Acts 7:56; Rev. 5:1, 9).

Those Christians who will live in heaven are assured that they will see God and also be like him, showing that Jehovah is truly a person and has a body as well as a certain location. - 1 John 3:2.

Some may have been confused due to the fact that God is all-seeing; also his power can be felt everywhere (2 Chron. 16:9). An illustration of this might be the comparison of an electric power plant to God. It has a certain location on a certain street in a certain city. But its power can be distributed out over the entire city, providing light, power, communications, etc. And so it is with God. He has a certain location in heaven, but his active force, his holy spirit, furnishes enlightenment, and its force can be felt throughout the entire universe so that God can perfectly “see” any particle of his universe and powerfully act (through that spirit force) anywhere in that universe.

Although the Bible repeatedly warns that God’s worshipers are not to presume to make any likeness of him, it does use human characteristics in describing God. Thus the Bible speaks of God’s face, eyes, ears, nostrils, mouth, arms, and feet. Of course, such descriptive figurative language does not mean that his spirit body actually has the same kind of members as fleshly human bodies have. But such expressions are helpful to us, inasmuch as Jehovah God becomes more real to us.

Some trinitarians attempt to prove that Jesus shares with the Father an “untransferrable quality of God” known as “omnipresence.” But the scriptures they cite (such as John 6:56 and 14:23) do not indicate omnipresence for either God or Jesus. Certainly the most likely meaning for Jesus’ “dwelling” or “abiding in” (or with) people is that they have accepted his sacrifice for them and do their utmost to live in harmony (in union) with Jesus’ example and teachings! It shows a union of agreement in purpose and will. Jesus’ will has become their very own.

It is the same concept as used for all those who “walked with God” or who were “with God” or who could say “God is with us” (analyze Phil. 4:9). It did not mean they were literally in the personal physical presence of God but that they were sincerely trying to follow, or be in union with, God’s purposes and commandments, thereby pleasing him well or being “with” him. - Gen. 5:22; 6:9; Lev. 26:3, 21; 1 Kings 11:33; Malachi 2:6.

We need to understand exactly what “omnipresence” means. It is not a word found in the Scriptures nor a concept explained or used there. It is a concept developed and explained by philosophers:
“Omnipresence - property (of deity) of being in all places and things .... Omnipresence is opposed, not only to total, but also to partial, absence, or localization - action upon this thing and not upon that” - p. 546, An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm (ed.), 1945.

In other words, an omnipresent God could not be “in” one thing and not “in” another! Or “with” one and not “with” another. nor can an omnipresent God be said to be in any one specific location (e.g., “in heaven”) - see Ps. 33:13, 14; 115:3.

Therefore, you must not (if you are really saying God is omnipresent) say that God was with David, but not with Saul (1 Sam. 18:12). Obviously, having God “with” you does not indicate Omnipresence!

The scriptures often cited (John 6:56; 14:23) show persons accepting Jesus’ sacrifice and living in harmony with his teachings and example - “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.” (John 6:56) If you should insist on taking the last half of that scripture literally, then you would be equally justified in taking the first half absolutely literally!

If Jesus were omnipresent, as some say, he would already be in everyone and everything. He would literally be in the most blasphemous of unrepentant sinners. Instead, this scripture shows he is only “in” certain ones who truly accept his ransom sacrifice and act accordingly. (You cannot truly accept his sacrifice and then fail to act accordingly.)

Notice how harmony in purpose (not Omnipresence) is obviously meant here: not only is Jesus “in” these people, but they are “IN” HIM! The will and purpose of the one becomes the will and purpose of the other (see my John 10:30 study - ONE), in perfect harmony, but those Christians are not showing their “Omnipresence” by being “IN” Jesus any more than Jesus is showing “omnipresence” by being “in” them! They are “keeping his words” and are therefore “in” (in harmony with) him and his Father - John 14:23, 24. Those who are not “keeping his words” are not in harmony or union and therefore are not “in” him, and he is not “in” them. (This is certainly not Omnipresence!) Compare the “whole world” being “in” Satan - 1 John 5:19. The NIV interprets this as “the whole world is under the control of the evil one.” (“in the power of the evil one” - RSV, AT, NASB, CBW, cf. MLB, LB).

Some trinitarians have shown a similar understanding of these figurative expressions when they speak of the necessity of accepting Jesus “so he can make himself at home with you” or “can come into your heart.” If Jesus were really Omnipresent, he would already be in everyone’s heart! But, as these trinitarians indicate, before you can truly be in harmony with him, you must accept him as Savior and Christ and be obedient to him and his God. Then, and only then, can he be “in” you, and you can be “in” him—this is certainly not omnipresence, but obvious figurative language! (Surely no one would ever insist on taking Phil. 1:7 literally where Paul says he has all the Christian brothers of Philippi “in my heart”!)

Notice how clearly a figurative meaning is intended at John 17:20-23: “(20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (21) that they may all be one [all those who believe the words of the Apostles concerning Jesus]; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us ... (22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one.” - KJV.

IF Jesus must be equally God, then we see Jesus in this scripture telling us that men are also to be equally God. And if Jesus is omnipresent because he is “in” others, then clearly Jesus is telling us here that real Christians are also to be Omnipresent! But trinitarians say omnipresence is an untransferrable quality of God alone! (Isn’t it much better to admit the clear, figurative meaning of “in” and “abiding with,” etc.?) - cf. Jn 17:20-23 AT, CBW.

Clearly Jesus is speaking of being “one” as being “in harmony with” just as his being “in” the Father (and Christians being “in” Jesus and “in” the Father) shows a complete harmony of purpose, not some mysterious non-scriptural “omnipresence”! If Christ were truly “omnipresent” and literally “dwells in us” and “in” everything, what are such scriptures as 2 Cor. 5:6-9 trying to tell us?

It might be profitable to consider why God deals with men through angels, prophets, etc. It would certainly be easier, faster, clearer, and more certain (if God were truly physically present in all things) to just speak directly and cut out the “middle men.” Why, for example, take the time and bother to send an angel all the way to earth to appear in a burning bush to speak to Moses on behalf of God?

If God were omnipresent, he would have spoken directly from the burning bush himself! Or, even more likely, (if God were truly Omnipresent) He would have spoken out right in Moses’ brain! (“Moses, this is Jehovah God speaking. To prove it is I, watch that bush burst into flames and continue to burn as long as I speak to you. Here’s what I want you to do ....”)

And why would Jesus have to declare the only true God (or “explain him” - NASB; “Make him known” - NEB, RSV, JB) - Jn 1:18? If God were omnipresent, he certainly wouldn’t have to send another person from his physical presence in heaven to declare or make himself known. And why would Jesus bother to speak to John through an angel to send essential information to fellow Christians if he were also Omnipresent? - Rev. 1:1-3.
" God is a spirit "

A wrong Hellenist-Pauline notion, it seems, please. Right?
All spirits are creation of G-d, G-d is the Creator not the created, I understand, please. Right?

Regards
 

Bree

Active Member
I want to ask about this weblink: https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/god-omnipresent/

at the very bottom of this weblink it has this:

Misconception: Psalm 139:8 teaches that God is omnipresent by saying: “If I were to ascend to heaven, you would be there, and if I were to make my bed in the Grave, look! you would be there.”

Fact: This scripture is not talking about God’s location. It poetically teaches that no place is too remote for God to act in our behalf.

If God can act on our behalf no matter what.What about the grave?Were we cease to exist?Mind body and soul?According to Jehovah's Witnesses?:):confused:

when we cease to exist because of death, Eph 12:7 “The dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.”

He knows us inside and out. He can act for us when we cease to exist because the can recreate us as the person we once were.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
when we cease to exist because of death, Eph 12:7 “The dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.”

He knows us inside and out. He can act for us when we cease to exist because the can recreate us as the person we once were.
The reference is incorrect as Eph has only 6 chapters, please. Right?

Regards
 
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