A Question for Theists and Non-Theists

[Cephus]

Non-Theism applies to anyone who isn't a Theist. Meaning people who are Agnostic, or Ignostic also fall under this category. Also Buddhism is not an Atheist belief there several sects with gods involved in them, Buddhism just doesn't place an emphasis on God.

Agnostics and ignostics are also atheists, so we're talking about the same things. I didn't say *ALL* Buddhists were atheists, I specified those who didn't believe in gods.

 

[LuisDantas]

Agnostics and ignostics are also atheists, so we're talking about the same things.

I'm all for ample understandings of atheism, but let's acknowledge that there are agnostic theists at least, shall we?

 

[Cephus]

I'm all for ample understandings of atheism, but let's acknowledge that there are agnostic theists at least, shall we?

Yes, but I was responding to the implication he was making. Agnosticism/gnosticism answers a completely different question from atheism/theism. It answers claims of available or possible knowledge for the existence of gods, it says nothing whatsoever about belief in those gods, which is where atheism/theism comes in.

So yes, you are right, there can be and absolutely are agnostic theists, in fact, I'd argue that the vast majority of theists are also agnostics.

 

[crossfire]

What would it take for you to change your mind?

For Theists what it would it take for you to stop believing in God?
For Non-Theists what would it take for you to start believing in God?

Does it really even matter, one way or the other?

 

[Falvlun]

What if you wake up in a lab surrounded by humanoid robots who are discussing how they have reconstituted you from your DNA and the brain scan which you had on your deathbed?

But then you hear a godlike voice chuckling in a sort of voiceover about how He's trying to trick you into believing that you're being reconstituted from DNA?

But then you notice the robots have a tape recorder and the godlike voice kinda seems like it's coming from there?

But then the Voice chides the robots to put the recorder down and stop trying to make you think He isn't real.

But then you suspect that the chiding Voice might be coming from the tape recorder itself.

But then....

Whenever an atheist insists that gods are obviously fake, I see him just as I see the theists who insist on the opposite. One has chosen the robots and the tape recorder. The other has chosen the Voice.

Me, I just enjoy watching all the trickery.

Meh. I think the existence of an afterlife would be good evidence of a god. Though, admittedly, I was thinking of a more traditional one than you picture.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Meh. I think the existence of an afterlife would be good evidence of a god. Though, admittedly, I was thinking of a more traditional one than you picture.

I think one day my scenario may come to pass -- at least the part about humanoid robots bringing us back to life. But there will have to be the brain scan technology, so I doubt our generation will be faced with waking in heaven.

 

[Quintessence]

For Theists what it would it take for you to stop believing in God?

Technically speaking, I do not "believe" in the gods. What I believe is that gods may be defined as any aspect of reality a person or culture deems worthy of worship. What I know is that I find many, many aspects of reality worthy of worship and that they exist beyond any reasonable doubt.

So in essence, I would have to return to a painfully narrow definition of the gods in order to stop "believing." This would actually be pretty easy if I limited myself to "god = classical monotheism" because I'm pretty much atheistic with respect to that god-concept. But why would I voluntarily do that? Why would I strip myself of reverential appreciation of reality/nature/universe/gods? That would just be silly.

 

[Sir Doom]

And since that's what all the evidence shows...

All of the evidence shows that there is a non-divine creator? I think you misread me.

 

[Sir Doom]

What significant difference is there between the options?

A non-divine creator would not identify as such, nor would they expect me to treat them as such. On the other hand, a divine creator should be fairly comfortable wearing that mantle and likely would expect to be treated as divine.

 

[thau]

apropos:

"An evil age is eager for a sign, but no sign will be given it except that of Jonah." (IOW, Jesus has revealed Himself via His death and resurrection. It is enough.)

"God reveals Himself to those who keep the demands of His covenant."

"To the extent one truly seeks God, you will find Him." (A sign on a wooded trail in a cloistered monastery)

 

[underthesun]

Technically speaking, I do not "believe" in the gods. What I believe is that gods may be defined as any aspect of reality a person or culture deems worthy of worship. What I know is that I find many, many aspects of reality worthy of worship and that they exist beyond any reasonable doubt.

So in essence, I would have to return to a painfully narrow definition of the gods in order to stop "believing." This would actually be pretty easy if I limited myself to "god = classical monotheism" because I'm pretty much atheistic with respect to that god-concept. But why would I voluntarily do that? Why would I strip myself of reverential appreciation of reality/nature/universe/gods? That would just be silly.​

^ That pretty much sums up what my reaction was going to be before I even said it. I couldn't have said it better myself, and I'm imaginary-fruballing you right now, because apparently I've already fruballed you recently and can't do it again.

But really, I have a hard time trying to even imagine if it is possible for me to not believe in the Divine, simply because of my interpretation of what the Divine actually is. I can't imagine anything that would make me realize that no deity at all exists; I don't think anything can prove that.

However, I can think of possibilities that might persuade me to believe that my personal view on religion and spirituality is incorrect. If I died and ended up in the Christian Hell, for instance, that would probably convince me that I was wrong. But could I ever be convinced that no deity exists at all? Probably not. Unless we just change the definition of that word, I suppose.​

 

[chinu]

What would it take for you to change your mind?

For Theists what it would it take for you to stop believing in God?
For Non-Theists what would it take for you to start believing in God?

One says that I don't believe in God because I can see "Him".

I think that this person is correct on his side because, if he can see, than why he need to believe ? For example: There's Sun, thus.. one need not to say that I believe in sun, Thus.. Saying there's Sun, is just enough.

Anyways, atheist or theist ? what is such kind of person according to you ? or can anybody else tell ?

 

[Cephus]

All of the evidence shows that there is a non-divine creator? I think you misread me.

No, it shows that there is no need for a creator at all, the evidence shows that life can arise and evolve quite naturalistically.

 

[nazz]

No, it shows that there is no need for a creator at all, the evidence shows that life can arise and evolve quite naturalistically.

what evidence would that be?

 

[thau]

No, it shows that there is no need for a creator at all, the evidence shows that life can arise and evolve quite naturalistically.

... and virtually never make a mistake in its mindless quest, no less.

When one considers these "natural selection" mindless, willfulless, non-intelligent, processes had to assemble eyeballs and spines and spleens and gall bladders and nervous systems (where none once existed) --- that is quite a remarkable accomplishment! And no fossil evidence of any miscalculations!!!

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

... and virtually never make a mistake in its mindless quest, no less.

When one considers these "natural selection" mindless, willfulless, non-intelligent, processes had to assemble eyeballs and spines and spleens and gall bladders and nervous systems (where none once existed) --- that is quite a remarkable accomplishment! And no fossil evidence of any miscalculations!!!

You don't need fossil record miscalculation, simple dissection of the eye would show that it there is a flaw. Hence the blind spot.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

... and virtually never make a mistake in its mindless quest, no less.

When one considers these "natural selection" mindless, willfulless, non-intelligent, processes had to assemble eyeballs and spines and spleens and gall bladders and nervous systems (where none once existed) --- that is quite a remarkable accomplishment! And no fossil evidence of any miscalculations!!!

If you're going to argue against something, best you have a basic grasp of it.

 

[Sir Doom]

No, it shows that there is no need for a creator at all, the evidence shows that life can arise and evolve quite naturalistically.

The fact that a creator is not necessary isn't a compelling reason for me to stop believing in god. I understand that it is a compelling reason for you. I have no arguments against that conclusion and no desire to debate it.

If there happened to be a creator that was not divine, however, this would most definitely be a compelling reason for me to stop believing in god. Which is why I stated that in my first post.

To say, "It wasn't god, it just happened on its own." is nowhere near as good an argument as "It wasn't god, it was those guys..." I'm sure you can at least agree with that.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

For Non-Theists what would it take for you to start believing in God?

The existence of god being apparent to me.

 

[Cephus]

... and virtually never make a mistake in its mindless quest, no less.

When there is no goal in mind, it's hard to make any mistakes. Humans were not the end goal of evolution, in fact, we're not even the end result of evolution. When we're gone, as inevitably we will be, something else will come along and take the top spot on this planet.

Humanity was not the purpose of evolution, with every new result getting inexorably closer to us, we are just the end result of billions of years of evolution, we are the way we are because of what came before. If what came before had played out differently, we'd be different too.

There are way too many people who are too attached to their own supposed superiority.