A Question of the Creation of Mankind.

[monti]

I promise you, the world is not going to end if you decide to stop being a one trick pony and talk about something else.

What else does one discuss on a religious forum. How about George Best, he was one of the greatest footballers to ever strike a ball, indeed his loyal fans and supporters called him a Wizard, was he really a Wizard though?

 

[monti]

That's because with the Sumerian text, you're dealing with one text, not two source texts compiled into one document.

So you agree they are two stories stitched together then?
The Sumerian text come from a wide range of writers where there are different stories from one god or another.

So you criticize traditionalist views ...

I wouldn't call my reply criticism. I would call telling someone they find my question "cute" and that I think "highly of myself" more than a patronising insult though.

When you get tired of kicking other people's pet beliefs just because you can, perhaps you'll take some time to discuss your own beliefs.

Asking awkward questions, do you mean?

 

[technomage]

you initiated the idea of evidence into topic.

Come to think of it, yeah, I did.

To go into the full list of evidence as to why the Genesis account is not historical would require several books--indeed, several have been written on the topic. Two that I would recommend:

* The Bible Unearthed: by Israel Finklestein
* What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It?: William Dever.

 

[monti]

1. Your opinion is noted and from my perspective, not relevant.

Not relevant to you maybe, I can accept that, as should my right to question what it is I found more than an odd story. Why did god take the time to remove a body part from the man and not simply make the woman out of dust as it clearly states he did in the case of the male?

 

[technomage]

So you agree they are two stories stitched together then?

Two with Gen 1 and Gen 2. A lot more once than two source texts you get through the entire Pentateuch.

The Sumerian text come from a wide range of writers where there are different stories from one god or another.

There is no single Sumerian text that matches what you describe. The Enuma Elish is a single text from a single source. You have to compare multiple texts to match your description.

I wouldn't call my reply criticism.

I wouldn't either. The words "Inane" and "shallow" come to mind.

I would call telling someone they find my question "cute" and that I think "highly of myself" more than a patronising insult though.

If the shoe fits, wear it. If you don't like the fact that the shoe fits, there is one (and only one) person who can correct the issue.

Asking awkward questions, do you mean?

No, I mean "kicking traditionalists beliefs." So far, the only awkwardness in this conversation is from the clumsiness of your critique.

It's time to pick up your game, Monti. Time to learn some _actual_ criticism, not these crappy little patti-cake questions you've posted so far.

Bring your A game, or go home.

 

[technomage]

We don't know that! Maybe he is The Gatekeeper, responsible for keeping the Elder Gods at bay by posting inanities all over the internet. Maybe it is his blatant mediocrity that keeps them from devouring the earth.

Hmmm ... you may have a point.

 

[Tumah]

Not relevant to you maybe, I can accept that, as should my right to question what it is I found more than an odd story. Why did god take the time to remove a body part from the man and not simply make the woman out of dust as it clearly states he did in the case of the male?

Right, not relevant to me. Probably also not relevant to this thread, since it seems you were specifically looking for how we religious members deal with what appears to be separate creation accounts in Scriptures. And I've answered that. If you were looking for a platform to voice your own beliefs, I believe you can head right over to the Comparative Religion section and let it all out.

As to your question why G-d did not just make woman the same way He did the man, out of the earth. I invite you to head right on over to the Christian DIR where I'm sure they will be happy to lecture you all about it. Alternatively, you can try our Judaism DIR, where you may find a Jew willing to explain it to you.

Kindly bear in mind: the book wasn't written yesterday. Even if you will argue that the answers are nothing more then novella on a myth, someone already thought of your questions long before you were born.

 

[Quintessence]

I'd just like to point out a couple of things.

One, it is extremely common for religions to have more than one creation mythos. The editor of the Bible didn't do a very good job of clarifying that point, but then again, I don't think it's too unreasonable for this simply to be understood by the reader.

Two, to those who think they can create an entire biosphere from scratch better than the one-god of the Torah, I welcome you to make the attempt on Mars. Oh hey, and you totally can't seed it with biological life forms from Earth. It has to be from scratch. Do that, and then get back to me, kay?

 

[monti]

Two with Gen 1 and Gen 2. A lot more once than two source texts you get through the entire Pentateuch.



There is no single Sumerian text that matches what you describe. The Enuma Elish is a single text from a single source. You have to compare multiple texts to match your description.



I wouldn't either. The words "Inane" and "shallow" come to mind.



If the shoe fits, wear it. If you don't like the fact that the shoe fits, there is one (and only one) person who can correct the issue.


No, I mean "kicking traditionalists beliefs." So far, the only awkwardness in this conversation is from the clumsiness of your critique.

It's time to pick up your game, Monti. Time to learn some _actual_ criticism, not these crappy little patti-cake questions you've posted so far.

I am simply querying the sequence of events as it is written in the creation story. The Enuma Elish is not the only creation story that comes from the Sumerians.

Bring your A game, or go home.

Stop being so bloody childish man. Who do you think you are telling me what I can or cannot do or ask?
The sequences do not make no sense unless they are separate creations or are two similar stories stitched together... very poorly.

 

[monti]

Kindly bear in mind: the book wasn't written yesterday.

I agree, it was written and is still preached by people who thought the general population were born yesterday though.

 

[metis]

I tend to lean in the direction that the creation accounts are a reworking of a Babylonian narrative to fit our teachings, therefore neither chronology nor a literal interpretation of specific events covered need apply. IOW, I tend the think it's allegory that has a much more important meaning and implication than just "Did this really take place as written?".

Basically, it contains values and morals that we hold dear, and this kind of approach is used in all cultures. For the heck of it, Google "Santa Claus", for example, and see how that jolly old chap evolved over the centuries.

 

[metis]

I agree, it was written and is still preached by people who thought the general population were born yesterday though.

It wasn't until the last century that we found out otherwise.

 

[monti]

Two that I would recommend:

* The Bible Unearthed: by Israel Finklestein
* What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It?: William Dever.

When The Gods Came Down. Alan F. Alford.
Gods Of The New Millenium. Alan F.Alford.
The Genius Of The Few. Christian O'Brien.
Genesis of the Grail Kings. Laurence Gardner.

 

[technomage]

I am simply querying the sequence of events as it is written in the creation story. The Enuma Elish is not the only creation story that comes from the Sumerians.

Actually, the Enuma Elish is not Sumerian at all: it comes from a later culture (the Babylonians). Yes, I left a trap open for you. Yes, you feel for it.

Stop being so bloody childish man.

You're coming through with childish objections to a myth you don't understand, and you accuse me of being childish?

Tumah's words are far kinder than you deserve.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

When The Gods Came Down. Alan F. Alford.
Gods Of The New Millenium. Alan F.Alford.
The Genius Of The Few. Christian O'Brien.
Genesis of the Grail Kings. Laurence Gardner.

So what other tomes of "scholarly" knowledge are you going to recommend? Chariots of the Gods or maybe The Twelfth Planet? How about some Velikovsky while you are at it.

 

[monti]

So what other tomes of "scholarly" knowledge are you going to recommend? Chariots of the Gods or maybe The Twelfth Planet? How about some Velikovsky while you are at it.

I am reading one of Velikovsky's works at the moment, interesting read. I wouldn't recommend it to you though.

What I would recommend to you is that you sit yourself down in a quiet corner and read the wonderful contradictory story of the burial and resurrection of Jesus in the the New Testament.
Read it slowly though and take in as much as you can, I shall be asking questions later.

 

[monti]

Actually, the Enuma Elish is not Sumerian at all: it comes from a later culture (the Babylonians). Yes, I left a trap open for you. Yes, you feel for it.


.

Some trap my friend, you should try again. The sumerian creation epic was only know as The Enuma Elish to the Babylonian ... and the Assyrians.
It is referred to by some scholars today as the Chaldean Genesis, does this make it any different simply because this sumerian creation story has had a name change? There is also the 'other' babylonian epic Atra-Hasis which also includes the creation story also called the Akkadian Epic and The Ancient Egyptian creation story. And all these 'other' creation myths/stories all had their roots in the Sumerian creation story and that includes the Old Testament that is believed by some to have been written by Moses.

So I cannot see the point of your " trap", that you believe you so cunningly let me "fEEl" for.

 

[monti]

I tend to lean in the direction that the creation accounts are a reworking of a Babylonian narrative to fit our teachings, therefore neither chronology nor a literal interpretation of specific events covered need apply.

Good point.

 

[technomage]

Some trap my friend, you should try again. The sumerian creation epic was only know as The Enuma Elish to the Babylonian ... and the Assyrians.

The Sumerian creation myths (there are four different ones) are radically different from the Enuma Elish, both thematically and structurally. If you like, WIkipedia has some good introductory articles on each of these topics.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I am reading one of Velikovsky's works at the moment, interesting read. I wouldn't recommend it to you though.

Somehow it does surprise me that you are reading Velikovsky.