A Question to Christians.

[Apathy]

I believe there are two kinds of apostasy -- personal apostasy and institutional apostasy. Which one were you primarily interested in discussing?

Personal apostasy.

 

[Vile Atheist]

It is partly Satan's fault for tempting us, but it is ultimately up to us to follow his temptations or resist them. God saw Satan coming, indeed, and Satan probably fit with His plan, even if Satan did not know it. Humanity would not find it difficult to worship a God if they knew He existed. So God allowed Satan to lead them astray, to see who would stay true to HIm. This is then encompassed by the gift of free will that God has given to both humanity and his angels.

But is God not omniscient? God would know someone would be an apostate (for example) before he even created them. And so it seems rather cruel to punish someone for a sin that God gave them the power and temptation to make. Further, I see a disparity between your view of God and Satan. If Satan tries to lead us astray, why is it that Satan is eternally punished - especially - if he's a part of God's plan? And if God created Satan for the purpose of leading us astray to see who would stay true, then isn't God guilty of leading us astray just as much as Satan is? What hope do mere humans have against resisting being corrupted by an omnipotent being? It seems grossly unfair to entice someone to sin and then punish them for it.

Humanity is the joy and love of God's heart. He has an infinite amount of love for all of us, and so for someone to corrupt us and cause us to fall would not make God happy at all. It does not matter how long we have been around in this universe. What matters is that we are the pride and joy of an eternal Creator, and to break an eternal being's heart is not a good idea for someone like Satan. That, to me, is an infinite sin, to be the cause of some people's eternal separation from God.

Can an omnipotent being even have emotions like love, happiness, sadness, and anger? Aren't emotions an avenue for weakness and exploitation (I'm hoping you'll understand what I mean by that)? Further, if God is omniscient, then he knows we'll be sinners before he creates us. So then why create humans when he knows they will disappoint him and cannot live up to a ridiculously high standard? If I loved someone, I wouldn't put them through such a rigorous and impossible test for them to prove their love for me and to boot, punish them if they fail. So I don't see how God could even be disappointed, angry, or what have you when people are apostates (or commit any sin). He should fully expect it.

God also would not will Satan out of existence, because Satan would probably fit with His plan. Not only that, but Satan could challenge God in many ways if He decided to will Satan out of existence. Satan could argue that he is being destroyed because humanity would never still worship God if Satan was allowed to tempt them, and thus challenge God's creation.

If God is omnipotent, God cannot be challenged by anything. It also seems rather egotistical to create humans for the purpose of loving and worshipping him, no? But even still, let's say someone commits a sin like apostasy. How does that affect God? If God is omnipotent, he cannot be harmed in any way (especially by petty human emotions). So I really don't get the justification for punishing humans at all for sins.

Many see Genesis as a poetic piece, illustrating God's relationship with mankind. I lean to that side. But alas, I'll defend the creationist point of view anyway. God created the angel Lucifer, with the purpose of being the "Lightbearer", and some sources (not in the Bible) say that Lucifer was the angel that God loved the most. Angels have free will, maybe not as free as humanity, but they still have it. God knew the path Lucifer would take, but because of free will He still decided to create him, even though he would become the evil being known as Satan. I don't think God created the actual physical snake. That was instead the form that Satan chose to take when tempting Adam and Eve.

The snake bit doesn't really matter. It's the point that God created knowingly created evil for the purpose of tempting us and testing us to see if we love him. Think of all the evil in this world: wars, disease, poverty, hunger, genocide, discrimination, and much much more. Think of the billions that have suffered throughout time. Do you think it is loving and just to subject people to a test like that? It seems to me that if God created this evil with the purpose of testing our love for him, that's pretty sick and egotistical, don't you think? And to boot, to punish people for sins like apostasy, it just doesn't seem very fair or loving at all, in my opinion.

It is not a flaw, it is the gift of free will that we all have. God did not create Satan to be evil. God created all things good, and it is us that chooses whether to follow that or not.

So then why punish Satan at all? If everything is ultimately up to us, why does Satan get the bad rap? It just seems very inconsistent, unfair, unjust, and unloving to me to create people knowing full well that they will sin - you can argue we are created for the purpose of sinning, really, because that's how God made us - and then punishing them severely when they end up sinning.

I don't mean to argue or anything, but I am legitimately confused about your position.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

But is God not omniscient? God would know someone would be an apostate (for example) before he even created them. And so it seems rather cruel to punish someone for a sin that God gave them the power and temptation to make. Further, I see a disparity between your view of God and Satan. If Satan tries to lead us astray, why is it that Satan is eternally punished - especially - if he's a part of God's plan? And if God created Satan for the purpose of leading us astray to see who would stay true, then isn't God guilty of leading us astray just as much as Satan is? What hope do mere humans have against resisting being corrupted by an omnipotent being? It seems grossly unfair to entice someone to sin and then punish them for it.

God created Satan to be one of His angels, and like with all the angels, Satan had the capacity and free will to sin. While God did not create Satan with the purpose of being evil, the fall of Satan still fits with God's grand plan. Nothing is a surprise to God, and all things will work with His plan, but that does not mean that that was His original intention. God knew Lucifer would fall, but it would not be just to make sure anyone who was evil should not exist, because that would ruin the point of free will.

Can an omnipotent being even have emotions like love, happiness, sadness, and anger? Aren't emotions an avenue for weakness and exploitation (I'm hoping you'll understand what I mean by that)?

Omnipotence doesn't have to mean that a Being cannot feel emotions. Emotions can be an avenue for weakness and exploitation for us flawed humans, but while they can be felt by an omnipotent being, that being will not be able to be exploited by them, for He is omnipotent, and so no negative effects of this trait cannot exist in God.

Further, if God is omniscient, then he knows we'll be sinners before he creates us. So then why create humans when he knows they will disappoint him and cannot live up to a ridiculously high standard? If I loved someone, I wouldn't put them through such a rigorous and impossible test for them to prove their love for me and to boot, punish them if they fail. So I don't see how God could even be disappointed, angry, or what have you when people are apostates (or commit any sin). He should fully expect it.

God knows how someone will live their life, but for the purpose of free will He chooses to create them. He cannot choose only to let the righteous people live, otherwise there would have been no point in giving the gift of free will to His creation, because anyone who would misuse their free will would not even exist.

If God is omnipotent, God cannot be challenged by anything.

This is true. While not actually feeling challenged, it does not mean that He would dismiss any challenge that came His way.

It also seems rather egotistical to create humans for the purpose of loving and worshipping him, no? But even still, let's say someone commits a sin like apostasy. How does that affect God?

No, it is not egotistical. God wants companions and people who would acknowledge and praise His Name out of their own free will, and that is why He created humans. He wants companions and children, not merely for the act of worship.
If someone commits a sin like apostasy, they are found unworthy in the eyes of God, the same as every other sinner, and can only be purified through Christ. God would not be able to stand their presence, because the sin within them would be too great.

If God is omnipotent, he cannot be harmed in any way (especially by petty human emotions). So I really don't get the justification for punishing humans at all for sins.

God is not harmed by sins, but instead detests it. He cannot have someone in His presence that is filled with sin and evil. He has to punish humans for sin to be in accordance with His own justice and righteousness.

The snake bit doesn't really matter. It's the point that God created knowingly created evil for the purpose of tempting us and testing us to see if we love him. Think of all the evil in this world: wars, disease, poverty, hunger, genocide, discrimination, and much much more. Think of the billions that have suffered throughout time. Do you think it is loving and just to subject people to a test like that? It seems to me that if God created this evil with the purpose of testing our love for him, that's pretty sick and egotistical, don't you think? And to boot, to punish people for sins like apostasy, it just doesn't seem very fair or loving at all, in my opinion.

These evils are caused by misusing our gift of free will. God does not want us to do them, but it is how we choose to use our gift of free will and choosing whether to listen to Satan's temptations or not. God did not directly create evils like genocide and poverty, but it is another way that sin has made us fall, and God is testing the people He loves with sin, not with any specific disasters, and how we can get through sin.

So then why punish Satan at all? If everything is ultimately up to us, why does Satan get the bad rap? It just seems very inconsistent, unfair, unjust, and unloving to me to create people knowing full well that they will sin - you can argue we are created for the purpose of sinning, really, because that's how God made us - and then punishing them severely when they end up sinning.

I don't mean to argue or anything, but I am legitimately confused about your position.

Satan is the Great Deceiver. While God knew that Satan would fall, He did not create Him with that purpose, and it was ultimately up to Lucifer to decide to rebel against God. The problem of sin then caused God to come down as a human and sacrifice Himself, in order to purify the world of sin. Those who still do not believe and reject God will be punished, as they have chosen to do this with their free will. God can choose to not let a sinner exist, but as I stated before that would take away the point of free will. We can choose to sin if they want, and ultimately it's up to us what our fate is.

 

[Vile Atheist]

Nothing is a surprise to God, and all things will work with His plan, but that does not mean that that was His original intention.

What lol? How can it be his plan if it wasn't his original intention? If that was his plan, it was also his intention. A plan is basically an intention to do something.

I think we're starting to go around in circles here and not getting anywhere. From my point of view, if we sin and have true free will, we are solely responsible for our own actions, even if others may try to tempt us into taking a different course of action. To me, it doesn't make sense that God would create us flawed, knowing we will sin, and punish us for it anyway. It seems grossly unfair. And with that in mind, it seems unjust for God to punish anyone for sins like apostasy and whatnot.

Thanks for sharing your views with me

 

[sandy whitelinger]

What is your view on apostasy?

I tend to be apathetic toward apostasy.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I have no problems with these things either. But don't you agree that God would not be happy with apostasy in the sense of those that accept His existence, yet choose to rebel against Him?

I do not see apostacy as leaving God, but changing your route.
I don't think God minds at all which route you chose.

however Religions and denominations do care when they lose members to another faith. This is a problem for them not God.

 

[Muffled]

Well, in that case, apostasy is renouncing your faith and defecting/leaving the established institution of the Church.

The first is apostasy from Christianity (or some other religion); the second is apostasy from the Church (Temple, Mosque).

For instance if a Christian were to say that He loved sin and hated God for prohibiting it, after making a profession of faith, he would be apostate. Churches can also become apostate by believing in sin.

 

[Muffled]

I do not see apostacy as leaving God, but changing your route.
I don't think God minds at all which route you chose.

however Religions and denominations do care when they lose members to another faith. This is a problem for them not God.

I don't think you will get God to agree that you should be on the highway to Hell.

 

[Muffled]

Now this is interesting, I was raised in a baptist church and I can't remember a day in the church where I wasnt threatened directly or indirectly by eternal torture.

It must have been southern Baptist because I was raised an American Baptist and I can't recall it ever being mentioned.