A question to Christians

[EyeofOdin]

**Btw, If you believe that the world is only 6,000 years old, then I suppose this question doesn't apply to you.

For the rest of you: I am not a Christian, I am an Indigenous Germanic Polytheist. I have always wondered something about your god and your, for lack of a better word, mythology (not saying that your Lore and Stories are "fake" as the definition of the word "myth" is a story or fable based on culture or spirituality).

For over 50,000 years, Proto-Indo-Europeans had been practicing their polytheistic "pagan" beliefs, all of which were related to each other and descended from one polytheistic belief system in a pantheon coming out of Africa. For a couple hundred thousand years before that, people had been practicing animistic, shamanic, tribal traditions in Africa. It is also theorized that over 1.5 million years ago, when we weren't "homo-sapiens" but our predecessor, homo erectus, started to develop myth, lore and beliefs in gods and spirits.

The bible also explicitly says that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ doesn't enter heaven and, by default, goes to hell. That would mean that 1.5 billion years of people are doomed, simply because they were born in a time when monotheism, at least in the god "Yahweh" hadn't existed. This belief would continue to not exist until hundreds of thousands of years later, somewhere between 2,000 and 600 BC, not to mention that the worship of "Jesus" wasn't actually organized until 300 AD.

If God is so loving, merciful and just, why would he create all of these people for thousands and thousands of years to be simply doomed to Hell, not having the slightest opportunity for salvation, and then when there is the opportunity the people who apparently "need" the salvation are people who weren't raised in a Christian household and were raised with their own set of beliefs and religion, and aren't going to convert unless if a) by forceful conversion and threat of genocide or b) belief in divine intervention, possibly by near death experience?

I suppose what I'm asking is, how can a loving, merciful, just and fair God create millions and millions of souls and people, only to have less than a handful of them not be damned? Why waste the energy? And why create souls just to make them suffer for eternity because they were born in the wrong place, wrong time or both?

 

[Shiranui117]

**Btw, If you believe that the world is only 6,000 years old, then I suppose this question doesn't apply to you.

For the rest of you: I am not a Christian, I am an Indigenous Germanic Polytheist. I have always wondered something about your god and your, for lack of a better word, mythology (not saying that your Lore and Stories are "fake" as the definition of the word "myth" is a story or fable based on culture or spirituality).

For over 50,000 years, Proto-Indo-Europeans had been practicing their polytheistic "pagan" beliefs, all of which were related to each other and descended from one polytheistic belief system in a pantheon coming out of Africa. For a couple hundred thousand years before that, people had been practicing animistic, shamanic, tribal traditions in Africa. It is also theorized that over 1.5 million years ago, when we weren't "homo-sapiens" but our predecessor, homo erectus, started to develop myth, lore and beliefs in gods and spirits.

The bible also explicitly says that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ doesn't enter heaven and, by default, goes to hell. That would mean that 1.5 billion years of people are doomed, simply because they were born in a time when monotheism, at least in the god "Yahweh" hadn't existed. This belief would continue to not exist until hundreds of thousands of years later, somewhere between 2,000 and 600 BC, not to mention that the worship of "Jesus" wasn't actually organized until 300 AD.

God would not damn to Hell those who had absolutely no opportunity to know Him; that is unfair and unjust. God wills that ALL be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)

Rather, before the coming of Christ, everyone who had ever died, whether Jew or Gentile, went down to "Hades," or the realm of death, where all just waited. When Christ died, He descended into Hades, and whoever was righteous, and/or whoever believed in Him, were saved from Hades and were either taken into Heaven or are going to be in Heaven. So all those billions of people who lived before Christ weren't damned to Hell, but were eventually given the same chance we have of accepting Him.

If God is so loving, merciful and just, why would he create all of these people for thousands and thousands of years to be simply doomed to Hell, not having the slightest opportunity for salvation, and then when there is the opportunity the people who apparently "need" the salvation are people who weren't raised in a Christian household and were raised with their own set of beliefs and religion, and aren't going to convert unless if a) by forceful conversion and threat of genocide or b) belief in divine intervention, possibly by near death experience?

I suppose what I'm asking is, how can a loving, merciful, just and fair God create millions and millions of souls and people, only to have less than a handful of them not be damned? Why waste the energy? And why create souls just to make them suffer for eternity because they were born in the wrong place, wrong time or both?

For those who will not have the opportunity to learn and accept the Gospel in this lifetime, it's implied in the Scriptures that they will instead be judged by the law of conscience written on their hearts. Romans 2:15-16 says this: For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

So no, those who don't have the chance to hear of the Gospel, or those who were born before the coming of Christ, are most certainly not doomed to Hell.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No, they are not automatically damned. That's not how God is. To sum up the Catholic Church's basic answer to this: If they were inclined towards living virtuous lives such as showing compassion, mercy, kindness, selflessness, etc. then they would've been following the law of God that is written on their hearts. All humans (except full-blown psychopaths, I guess) have a conscience. We all have an idea of basic good behavior. When we do bad things to ourselves or to others, we are mentally tormented by it (guilt). This function was place in us by God. So if they abided by this natural sense of virtue, it is certainly possible they could've reached a certain stage of holiness even without knowing it. So it is certainly possible that many of those people who had never heard of God or of Jesus but who strove to be good people in life were in the Bosom of Abraham along with all the Old Testament Saints who were awaiting the arrival of the Messiah to open the gates of Heaven to them (that is where Jesus went while He was dead for 3 days). After Jesus Ascended to Heaven, the same would apply to those in far-flung areas who hadn't heard the Gospel.

Shiranui is pretty much correct, but we have different ways of explaining it since he is of the Eastern tradition and I'm of the Western tradition. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/members/shiranui117-40175.html

So, yes - many of them were probably saved and accepted Christ after death. We don't necessarily lose our chance to accept Jesus when we die. God desires that all souls be saved and He will do extraordinary things beyond our imagining - without violating our free will - to make that happen. He is truly a God after our own heart.

 

[WordSponge]

Part #1
Hello,

Peace and grace to you and yours.

I like your inquiry and I respectfully, would like to offer some things for you,
as a reasonable person, to carefully consider.
Maybe we together can infuse some balance into your inquiry about GOD
and his past, present and future acts and ways.
We are here because of GOD’s plan and the work of him (1) and his Son (2).
I truly have no notion of your religion but that is not a consideration.
To a Christian, enlightenment or ignorance is the true consideration and enemy.
The human sources (= devils) of the ignorance is the real evil.
*
Firstly, men were formerly judged and are still judged, even Christians,
according to their good or evil works/ deeds to each other, (locally and extending to internationally),
whether done individually or as a combined effort.
Christians are the ones who are constantly aware of this fact = and ‘inform others.’
The first Christians informed the Jews about the pending (70 A.D.) destruction of Jerusalem
and they were well rewarded for their efforts.
The Church, per the predictions, will repeat….
There is personal victory, over our weaknesses, in coming to Christ and accepting his help.
That is the gracious plan of the good GOD and his beloved and only begotten Son, Jesus the Christ.
***

Col.3​

[23] Whatever you (Christians) do,​

do heartily, like to the LORD (Jesus) and not unto men
[24] knowing that of/ from the LORD (the Head of the Church)​

You (Christian) shall receive the reward of the inheritance (GREAT stuff)​

for you serve the LORD Christ (and >> GOD)
[25] but he who does wrong (to others) shall receive for the wrong that he has done (to others)​

and there is no respect of persons. (no favoritism/ partiality)​

Exod.23​

[1] You (Christians) shalt not raise a false report >> (no falsehood in any human matters):​

Put not your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous (lying) witness.
[2] You shall not follow a multitude to do evil​

neither shalt you speak in a cause to decline (follow) after many​

to wrest judgment (fairness)​

***
No reasonable man will consider an evil Society to be a good place for his family, himself or…
Being judged according to ones deeds is a different issue from coming to Christ for Salvation
and other varied, lifetime and beyond, good Gifts from the good GOD (the Father of all)
In order to truly understand,
interested Gentiles must see and understand
the perspectives of the Spiritual, Israelite, Apostles and obey them
and not the views of Greek Philosophers.
Like Christ the Apostles had GOD, by his Spirit, in them,
leading them to do good service to men as pleased the good GOD.

There is a catch.
In order to fully understand and benefit one must become obedient to the faith,
and firstly obtain forgiveness and the (excellent) Spirit of GOD from Christ, by coming to Christ.

This is done by particular baptism.
We Gentiles learn that GOD is particular and not all things are acceptable…
Some things seem nonessential to the normal man but GOD does not speak uselessly/ aimlessly.
That is why men, who understand…, are chosen and sent to help other men.
***

1 Cor.1​

[23] But we (Apostles) preach Christ (the God of Israel) crucified (by them)​

unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness
[24] But unto them (converts) who are called (to Salvation and service to men),​

both Jews and Greeks,​

Christ (is) the Power of GOD and (he is) the Wisdom of GOD.
[25] because the (apparent) foolishness of (the wise) GOD is wiser than men​

and the (apparent) weakness of (the super human strong) GOD is stronger than men.​

1 Cor.2​

[14] The natural man (without GOD’s Spirit) receives not​

the things (the enlightenment, strength, etc.) of/ from the Spirit of GOD​

for they are foolishness unto him​

neither can he know (about) them because they are spiritually discerned.​

***
Simple men who know and try to teach everyone are usually thanked with abuse and worse
BUT they are rewarded by the good GOD for their goodness to men.
Be on the alert for nobodies, the brothers of Christ, like those.
***
Matt.25
[45] Then shall he answer them saying:
Verily I (Jesus) say to you
Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, (my brothers), you didn’t do it to me.
[46] and these shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal.
***
The Apostles were called rustic and refused for the same reason.
Christ left his lofty/ luxurious abode in heaven and came like,
a nobody, in the eyes of men.

 

[WordSponge]

I really enjoyed trying so I didn't want to toss out pertinent info.
Part #2
****
Knowledge about GOD’s dealings with all nations before Christianity:

Jer.9
[23] Thus saith the LORD,
Let not the wise man glory (boast) in his wisdom,
neither let the mighty man glory (boast) in his might,
let not the rich man glory (boast) in his riches:
[24] But let him who glories (boasts) do so in this:
That he understands and he knows me,
that I am the LORD who exercises loving kindness, (graciousness)
judgment (good reasoning) and righteousness (goodness), in the earth
for I delight (am pleased) in these things: saith the LORD.

Jesus, the achiever, is the one functioning in the above capacity at the moment until…

Here is how to experience a manifestation from BOTH:
1) Understand that through GOD’s and Christ’s graciousness, GOD sent Christ as a varied helper.
2) Go to Christ through performing the correct, acceptable baptism.
3) Read and understand and do the following and Jesus will keep his promise:
*
John.14 Jesus:
[21] He who has
my commandments, (to have faith in (1) the Father and (2) the Son and to love and do good)
and keeps/ obeys them,
it is he who loves me (the Moses taught, ONE God of Israel)
and he (the Israelite) who loves me shall be loved of/ by my Father (GOD) and I will love him,
and I (the God of the Prophets) will manifest myself to him >> (like in the O.T.)
[22] Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot:
LORD (our God of Israel), how is it that you will manifest thyself to us (Apostles only),
and not unto the world (of the Israelites)?
[23] Jesus answered and said unto him,
If a man loves me, he will keep/ perform my words and my Father (GOD) will love him
and WE (BOTH) will come unto him and make our abode with him.
*
The above still works because Jesus keeps his word.
After correct baptism, ask Jesus for the required love and for power to do good due to love for others.
Jesus must be called from under the water, (GOD’s foolishness), for pardon etc…

NOTICE: that Christians deal primarily with TWO and worship BOTH.
Knowledge of God in Christianity is not = the knowledge that Moses taught.

Meanwhile do not trust anyone……
Trust yourself, the Apostles and totally Christ >> GOD and approach Christ through correct baptism.
Beyond baptism, mostly all else cannot be understood by non- spiritual men.

People are still judged by their works because of GOD’s works in their heart.
We know good and evil.
We need the empowerment and personal life blessings that Christ and GOD give.
Christianity is a life time experience of blessings…. and is not blind faith
Religion may be just a place to ‘hide.’

Rom.2
[14] When the Gentiles, who have not the (Moses.) law,
do by nature the teachings that are contained in the (Moses) law,
these, not having the law, are a law unto themselves:
[15] that show the work of the (GOD’s) law written in their hearts,
their conscience also bearing witness,
and their thoughts mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Any reservations you have are from observing…..
Truth/ honesty is not needed or tolerated
BUT Jesus is the Judge and builder, for GOD, of who and what will be established.
The nation of Israel was his inheritance. Now we Gentiles are.
People decide their faith by their decision.
If they have not been taught the truth Jesus is aware of it.
Our fight is for the truth that saves.

Take care, my friend.

 

[thepractice]

For the rest of you: I am not a Christian, I am an Indigenous Germanic Polytheist. I have always wondered something about your god and your, for lack of a better word, mythology (not saying that your Lore and Stories are "fake" as the definition of the word "myth" is a story or fable based on culture or spirituality).

For over 50,000 years, Proto-Indo-Europeans had been practicing their polytheistic "pagan" beliefs, all of which were related to each other and descended from one polytheistic belief system in a pantheon coming out of Africa. For a couple hundred thousand years before that, people had been practicing animistic, shamanic, tribal traditions in Africa. It is also theorized that over 1.5 million years ago, when we weren't "homo-sapiens" but our predecessor, homo erectus, started to develop myth, lore and beliefs in gods and spirits.

"Mythology" is not a derogatory term to describe Christian beliefs. J.R.R. Tolkien described the story of Christ as "true mythology."

Regarding the pagan tradition. Christianity did not arise from a mythological or spiritual vacuum. Many pagans were converted understanding Christ as the fulfillment of ancient pagan prophecies.

 

[EyeofOdin]

"Many pagans were converted understanding Christ as the fulfillment of ancient pagan prophecies."

Yes but this is only because The Church came and said these things that actually aren't biblical to make them believe it. The Story of Odin hanging himself on Yggdrasil was changed and Jesus became the one to hang himself on the tree to the Goths.

"Rather, before the coming of Christ, everyone who had ever died, whether Jew or Gentile, went down to "Hades," or the realm of death, where all just waited."

That word "Hades" comes from the Ancient Greek word Ἅιδης" "Aidēs", and it actually has three definitions in Ancient Greek: The Underworld, The God of Death, Hades, and The Grave. Actually some translations of the bible say "The grave", while others say "Hell" and others say "Hades".

Some of you are also saying that people can enter heaven based on good deeds. You realize that this isn't biblical right?

"Nobody enters the kingdom of heaven but by me."

That was a quote from Jesus, not just a part of the bible written by John or Peter, so wouldn't that be like mega-biblical instead of just scriptural or something?

 

[savagewind]

For over 50,000 years, Proto-Indo-Europeans had been practicing their polytheistic "pagan" beliefs, all of which were related to each other and descended from one polytheistic belief system in a pantheon coming out of Africa. For a couple hundred thousand years before that, people had been practicing animistic, shamanic, tribal traditions in Africa. It is also theorized that over 1.5 million years ago, when we weren't "homo-sapiens" but our predecessor, homo erectus, started to develop myth, lore and beliefs in gods and spirits.

The bible also explicitly says that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ doesn't enter heaven and, by default, goes to hell. That would mean that 1.5 billion years of people are doomed, simply because they were born in a time when monotheism, at least in the god "Yahweh" hadn't existed.xperience?

I suppose what I'm asking is, how can a loving, merciful, just and fair God create millions and millions of souls and people, only to have less than a handful of them not be damned? Why waste the energy? And why create souls just to make them suffer for eternity because they were born in the wrong place, wrong time or both?

I think you mean millions. There is an edit feature

 

[savagewind]

I think all people are damned except one wasn't. The one is called Jesus Christ. I call him Yehoshua which seems to irritate some people but I don't know why.

Every human soul for however long, be it either 6000 years (I don't beleive it) or 1.5 million (I don't believe that either) gets sick, grows old and dies. So none of us have reached the place that God desires. God does not make people suffer but some do. Being unsaved is just like what humans know. There is nothing worse in store for Earth's population than what we already know imo. Why do I think God created souls? Experience.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Some of you are also saying that people can enter heaven based on good deeds. You realize that this isn't biblical right?

Let's see what the Church has to say about that:

The Church knows that the issue of morality is one which deeply touches every person; it involves all people, even those who do not know Christ and his Gospel or God himself. She knows that it is precisely on the path of the moral life that the way of salvation is open to all. The Second Vatican Council clearly recalled this when it stated that "those who without any fault do not know anything about Christ or his Church, yet who search for God with a sincere heart and under the influence of grace, try to put into effect the will of God as known to them through the dictate of conscience... can obtain eternal salvation". The Council added: "Nor does divine Providence deny the helps that are necessary for salvation to those who, through no fault of their own, have not yet attained to the express recognition of God, yet who strive, not without divine grace, to lead an upright life. For whatever goodness and truth is found in them is considered by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel and bestowed by him who enlightens everyone that they may in the end have life".7

If a person who has not been taught about God and Christ earnestly strives to follow the law of God that is written on their heart (natural virtue/conscience) by expressing the things that are of God - love, mercy, compassion, hope, chastity - as well leaving their hearts and mind open to God (i.e. not outright rejecting Him), may have hope of salvation.



Veritatis splendor, Encyclical Letter, John Paul II

"Nobody enters the kingdom of heaven but by me."

That was a quote from Jesus, not just a part of the bible written by John or Peter, so wouldn't that be like mega-biblical instead of just scriptural or something?

That is true. But that goes back to what I said about the Bosom of Abraham. All those virtuous people who lived before the time of Christ, such as Abraham, Noah, Moses, David and all the rest, went to a place called the Bosom of Abraham when they died. There, they waited for the Messiah to come and open the gates of Heaven to humanity. When Christ died, He went to the Bosom of Abraham and took those there to Heaven.

In the context of Christian theology, the Harrowing of Hell (Latin: Descensus Christi ad Inferos, "the descent of Christ into hell") is the Old English and Middle English term for the triumphant descent of Christ into Hell (or Hades) between the time of his Crucifixion and his Resurrection when he brought salvation to all of the righteous who had died since the beginning of the world (excluding the damned).[1] After his death, the soul of Jesus was supposed to have descended into the realm of the dead, which the Apostles' Creed calls "hell" in the old English usage. In some Christian theologies, it is believed that Jesus's soul remained united to the divinity during this time. The realm into which Jesus descended is called Sheol by some Christian theologians to distinguish it from the hell of the damned.[2]

Harrowing of Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Shiranui117]

"Many pagans were converted understanding Christ as the fulfillment of ancient pagan prophecies."

Yes but this is only because The Church came and said these things that actually aren't biblical to make them believe it. The Story of Odin hanging himself on Yggdrasil was changed and Jesus became the one to hang himself on the tree to the Goths.

I think the idea was to show how the various pagan religions were foreshadowings of what would later happen--in the Byzantine tradition, we have a word for this: "Logos Spermatikos," or "Seed of the Word." It's used a few different ways, but in this case, it means that all pre-Christian religions all had seeds of the Truth in them--IOW, all religions have foreshadowings of later Christian teachings. Odin hanging himself on Yggdrasil is a foreshadowing of Christ letting Himself be hung on the Cross, which we call the "Tree of Life." Not saying that Christianity necessarily fulfills pagan prophecies, per se, but rather that Christianity fulfills the elements of truth in other religions, and also brings in the rest of the truth which hadn't borne some sort of fruit in those religions.

EDIT: Thinking about this for a second, I realize that my explanation was rather wanting, so I'll try to flesh it out more and make it more coherent.

Basically, what I'm getting at is, all of humanity has hints and ideas planted in their souls about Christianity. In an attempt to elaborate on these intuitive ideas, the pagan religions were born, as humanity tried to direct these yearnings for Christ and explain them and elaborate on them in a way that made sense. So the story about Odin hanging on Yggdrasil is the intuition that Christ would come and hang on the cross, but explained in the only way the Germanic peoples knew how. The story of Odin hanging on Yggdrasil is so close to the historical event of Christ hanging on the Cross, since somehow the Germanic peoples instinctively knew it would happen. They had the shadow, the foreshadow of the story--but not the actual thing, and they didn't know how to explain this or what it actually was, so it went from being a hint (dare I say prophecy?) of Christ's coming and crucifixion, to a myth about a pagan god. So that's how the story of Odin hanging on Yggdrasil came about--at least, that's what we Christians would say. That's why the Christian missionaries drew that connection between Odin and Jesus.

"Rather, before the coming of Christ, everyone who had ever died, whether Jew or Gentile, went down to "Hades," or the realm of death, where all just waited."

That word "Hades" comes from the Ancient Greek word Ἅιδης" "Aidēs", and it actually has three definitions in Ancient Greek: The Underworld, The God of Death, Hades, and The Grave. Actually some translations of the bible say "The grave", while others say "Hell" and others say "Hades".

"The Grave" is what is intended here; when the Hebrew Bible was translated into the Greek Septuagint in the 1st or 2nd centuries BC, The Jews chose to translate "Sheol" as "Hades," and that's the name it's been known by ever since in Christian circles, and it is also called "Hades" in the New Testament, in both the Gospels and the Epistles.

Some of you are also saying that people can enter heaven based on good deeds. You realize that this isn't biblical right?

"Nobody enters the kingdom of heaven but by me."

That was a quote from Jesus, not just a part of the bible written by John or Peter, so wouldn't that be like mega-biblical instead of just scriptural or something?

Yet the Bible says we will also be judged based on our works, such as in Revelations 20:12-13. Jesus Himself also places an important emphasis on works; a LOT of His parables about the Judgement involve judgement of works, for example, the parable about the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-45).

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ . . .And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ ...Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


His Sermon on the Mount is also all about works. James says in the second chapter of his Epistle that "faith without works is dead".

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Now, can we save ourselves by works? No. But Saint Frankenstein explained it well-- those righteous who died before the coming of Christ were be saved by Him when He descended into Hades.

Our Lord Himself also implies that those who didn't receive the fullness of Truth, those who never got the chance to hear the Gospel, will be judged less harshly than us Christians, in Luke 12:47-48:

47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

So IOW, those who died ignorant of the Gospel, but who still lived essentially good lives, will not be condemned to eternal Hell for it--rather, they will simply go through what, in the Western tradition, one would call "Purgatory"--i.e. they are purged and cleansed of their sins before the Judgement, and when the time comes, they are admitted into the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I also wanted to clarify what I meant about having a chance to accept Christ after death. Since those who lived before Christ's time or who have never heard of Him during their life obviously wouldn't have had a chance to accept Him as their Lord and Savior during their time on earth, He would be revealed to them after they die. The thinking is that they would joyfully accept Him since it is Him they've been following all along, but without consciously knowing it.

Since the Bosom of Abraham was for those righteous people who lived before the time of Christ, Shiranui is correct that those who strove to live a virtuous life based on the knowledge available to them while they were alive, could go to Purgatory to be cleansed of sin before entering Heaven. There is always hope. It is our duty to pray for the souls of all people. Just as the Saints in Heaven pray for us to God to have mercy on us, we may pray for the souls of the deceased that God may have mercy on them. We are all brothers and sisters and that doesn't end at death.

It is also correct that Christians who have the full knowledge of Christ will be judged more harshly for our failures than those who don't. God's not going to damn you on the basis of something you didn't know. People seem to forget that His mercy is far more than His wrath. The only way you are damned is if you make the conscious choice to reject the Creator and all the things that are of Him such as the virtues I mentioned before. If you chose to wallow in hatred and negativity than that state will simply continue for you after you die. The most important thing in life is to base all actions and thought on a foundation of unconditional selfless love. So even if people don't have faith in Christ but nonetheless reflect His teachings and never stop searching for the Source, they could be saved.

 

[EyeofOdin]

"Basically, what I'm getting at is, all of humanity has hints and ideas planted in their souls about Christianity. In an attempt to elaborate on these intuitive ideas, the pagan religions were born, as humanity tried to direct these yearnings for Christ and explain them and elaborate on them in a way that made sense. So the story about Odin hanging on Yggdrasil is the intuition that Christ would come and hang on the cross, but explained in the only way the Germanic peoples knew how. The story of Odin hanging on Yggdrasil is so close to the historical event of Christ hanging on the Cross, since somehow the Germanic peoples instinctively knew it would happen. They had the shadow, the foreshadow of the story--but not the actual thing, and they didn't know how to explain this or what it actually was, so it went from being a hint (dare I say prophecy?) of Christ's coming and crucifixion, to a myth about a pagan god. So that's how the story of Odin hanging on Yggdrasil came about--at least, that's what we Christians would say. That's why the Christian missionaries drew that connection between Odin and Jesus."

So what makes you think that the stories in the indigenous faiths of Odin, Dionysus and Osiris dying and rising again was foreshadowing the death and rebirth of Jesus? By that logic Jesus is just as likely to be apart of this "foreshadowing dying god" myth as any other deity? What makes Jesus so special? Do you believe that Jesus is one in the same as these other deities? Most Christians today propose that Satan came as the "being of light" before Jesus to trick humanity into worshiping a Christ God who wasn't actually a Christ God.

Most Christians today also say that to believe that the indigenous or pagan myths and lore has any connection to Jesus is blasphemous. Then there's quoting from Zeitgeist and the argument boils down to Jesus is "The Christ" because I say so.

 

[Shiranui117]

So what makes you think that the stories in the indigenous faiths of Odin, Dionysus and Osiris dying and rising again was foreshadowing the death and rebirth of Jesus? By that logic Jesus is just as likely to be apart of this "foreshadowing dying god" myth as any other deity?

Because those stories about Odin, Dionysus, Osiris, etc. are just that: Stories, invented by men. Nothing we can verify, if the stories are even taken literally in the first place (and from what little I know, some pagans don't take them literally). Plus, who could Jesus possibly foreshadow? Since Jesus' time two thousand years ago, who has done anything like Him?

What makes Jesus so special? Do you believe that Jesus is one in the same as these other deities?

He certainly isn't one and the same as the pagan gods--but the derivation of the pagan gods from an instinctive foreknowledge about Christ is there.

What makes Jesus so special is, He is a verified, historical person.

Most Christians today propose that Satan came as the "being of light" before Jesus to trick humanity into worshiping a Christ God who wasn't actually a Christ God.

There's Satan's deception... And our own perception being clouded through sin, and becoming further alienated from God, to the point of forgetting Him altogether.

Most Christians today also say that to believe that the indigenous or pagan myths and lore has any connection to Jesus is blasphemous. Then there's quoting from Zeitgeist and the argument boils down to Jesus is "The Christ" because I say so.

Well, it depends on how the connections are drawn, and in support of what argument.

If people try to say that Christianity basically plagiarized other pagan myths and lore to create Jesus Christ, then that's just ignorant Zeitgeist sensationalism. This is what is blasphemous, and quite simply, ignorant.

On the other hand, saying that people instinctively knew the Truth about Christ before His coming, but expressed this intuition in the form of pagan myths and lore because they lacked the necessary knowledge to make proper sense of their intuitions about Christ, that's not blasphemous. It's pointing to the fact that Christianity is the fulfillment of the truth in all the religions that have come before.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So what makes you think that the stories in the indigenous faiths of Odin, Dionysus and Osiris dying and rising again was foreshadowing the death and rebirth of Jesus? By that logic Jesus is just as likely to be apart of this "foreshadowing dying god" myth as any other deity? What makes Jesus so special? Do you believe that Jesus is one in the same as these other deities? Most Christians today propose that Satan came as the "being of light" before Jesus to trick humanity into worshiping a Christ God who wasn't actually a Christ God.

Most Christians today also say that to believe that the indigenous or pagan myths and lore has any connection to Jesus is blasphemous. Then there's quoting from Zeitgeist and the argument boils down to Jesus is "The Christ" because I say so.

I'm not sure if you realize this but the Norse myths weren't written down until well after a large amount of the Norse people were converted to Christianity. They were written down by a Christian at that (Snorri Sturluson), who apparently just wanted to preserve the stories of his youth. Honestly, we really don't know what the Germanic peoples really believed before their Christianization or how they practiced their religion. They didn't write down their stories before Christians arrived. They didn't even all believe the same things. We don't have a treasure trove of writings about their religion like we do for the Greeks and the Romans, which stretch back far into the BC era. This makes it virtually impossible to actually reconstruct the religion(s) (whatever that might've been) of the pre-Christian Norse people. The same has happened with Slavic pre-Christian religion. There's no primary sources to refer back to. These religions are quite simply lost because they were oral cultures. Basically, modern attempts to revive these belief systems are cobbled together from what scant sources we have that came about long after Christianity became a major force on the scene. So it is quite possible that Christianity influenced the Norse myths as we have them now. There are cases of pagan religions being influenced by Christianity rather than the other way around. In fact, a lot of the examples that are often claimed by the "Christ is fabrication of pagan gods" crowds are examples of just that happening.

Also, when you actually examine such claims of similarity, they actually don't exist. That line of reasoning is based on abysmally low standards of "research" and outright lying.

Evidence for Jesus and Parallel Pagan "Crucified Saviors" Examined
http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html
Zeitgeist, the movie Debunked - Part One - Zeitgeist Exposed - Skeptic Project

That "theory" has been ripped to shreds over and over. I can only guess that it only continues to be repeated due to ignorance.

From the available scholarly evidence, the truth is that the story of Christ is actually quite unique. It's extremely unlike any of the stories found in the other religions.

 

[EyeofOdin]

"I'm not sure if you realize this but the Norse myths weren't written down until well after a large amount of the Norse people were converted to Christianity."

Well that doesn't matter in Germanic Polytheism, because it's an oral tradition.

"What makes Jesus so special is, He is a verified, historical person."

He actually isn't. The only references were either a) to a Christ, not a Jesus, which actually means anointed, which makes sense considering that there were a lot of people at that time calling themselves "Christ" or b) they have been known as forgeries for years.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well that doesn't matter in Germanic Polytheism, because it's an oral tradition.

It does matter if you're trying to claim that there's big similarities between Jesus and Norse gods.

 

[EyeofOdin]

I wasn't claiming that. You guys started to claim that first.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I wasn't claiming that. You guys started to claim that first.

Fair enough.

Well, I've answered your original question, anyway.

 

[ChristineES]

No where in the bible does it say that people are automatically damned. It also doesn't say that people are damned because they never had a chance to hear about Him.