A question to Christians

[Shiranui117]

Polytheism did exist before collision of the Romans and the Celts and Nordics, and even before the Celtic and Nordic cultures had existed. This isn't technically "proven" because the cultures prior to the Archaic and Classical Europeans didn't actually have a writing system, at least none which there is evidence for.

Instead we've made strong inferences about Proto-Indo-European culture based off of similar lingual structures of Native European and Vedic languages. Ferre in Latin has some similarities to the Old English word Beran. The word Zeus seems to have Etymological similarities to the Germanic Deity's name Tiw/Tyr, Roman Jupiter (from Archaic Latin Diovis [pater]), Celtic Dagda etc. so we can infer that they came from a common source.

Similarities and patterns in Proto-Indo-European based religions also lead us to believe that the deities and pantheons are (for lack of a better term) spin offs from an original pantheon. I'll give a few examples.

There is a pattern of a sky father with the lingual root De[w] (as seen in Greek Zeus, Roman Jupiter and Germanic Tiu), a pattern of divine twins (Greek Artemis and Apollo, Germanic Freya and Freyer and Roman Diana and Pheobus), other divine twins or smply siblings with solar/lunar qualities (Greek Helios and Selene, Roman Sol and Luna and Nordic Sol and Mani). There also is a pattern of a divine queen (Greek Hera, Roman Juno and Germanic Frigga) an Earth Mother, usually simply referred to as "earth" in whatever language the deity is revered in (Jord/Eorth to the Germanic peoples, Terra Mater, literally "Earth Mother" in Rome and Gaia in Greece). A different goddess of the earth and Fertility (Germanic Nerthus, Celtic Danu, Greek Demeter and Roman Ceres). Another pattern is a masculine deity of fertility which usually, but not always has an association with Thunder or lightning (Celtic Taranis, Germanic Thor/Thunar, Vedic Indra and [possibly, but uncertainly] Greek Dionysos and Roman Bacchus).

I could literally go on forever. We see however that by breaking the theology, mythology and linguistics of deities, we see more and more that it is at the very least highly likely that these gods have a common origin. So just because a hymn to Thor wasn't written down before say the Viking age, we know that the praises to The Thunder God was being practice long before Imperial Rome had any conflicts with Germans or the Gaulish.

Another note: We actually DO have written and archaeological evidence of polytheism before Rome's conquest throughout Europe, just not within Europe itself. We have ruins and actual translated texts of Egyptian holy books (such as the Egyptian book of the dead) which are dated to be written at least 3550 years ago, much longer before imperial Rome. Granted it wasn't IN Northern Europe, but the polytheism that existed a long long time ago in places like Egypt, Japan, India, The Americas etc. leads us to believe that we as humans remained consistently polytheistic for thousands of years since we were in Africa. This is a root belief in humanity, it's practically in our DNA.

I'm not trying to proselytize, just pointing out the cultural and linguistic theories and facts.

I think he was just saying that there was no evidence of polytheism among the Celtic and Germanic tribes, not that polytheism flat-out didn't exist prior to the collision with the Romans. Which you're still correct on, there was.

 

[Clarity]

Polytheism did exist before collision of the Romans and the Celts and Nordics, and even before the Celtic and Nordic cultures had existed. This isn't technically "proven" because the cultures prior to the Archaic and Classical Europeans didn't actually have a writing system, at least none which there is evidence for.

Instead we've made strong inferences about Proto-Indo-European culture based off of similar lingual structures of Native European and Vedic languages. Ferre in Latin has some similarities to the Old English word Beran. The word Zeus seems to have Etymological similarities to the Germanic Deity's name Tiw/Tyr, Roman Jupiter (from Archaic Latin Diovis [pater]), Celtic Dagda etc. so we can infer that they came from a common source.

Similarities and patterns in Proto-Indo-European based religions also lead us to believe that the deities and pantheons are (for lack of a better term) spin offs from an original pantheon. I'll give a few examples.

There is a pattern of a sky father with the lingual root De[w] (as seen in Greek Zeus, Roman Jupiter and Germanic Tiu), a pattern of divine twins (Greek Artemis and Apollo, Germanic Freya and Freyer and Roman Diana and Pheobus), other divine twins or smply siblings with solar/lunar qualities (Greek Helios and Selene, Roman Sol and Luna and Nordic Sol and Mani). There also is a pattern of a divine queen (Greek Hera, Roman Juno and Germanic Frigga) an Earth Mother, usually simply referred to as "earth" in whatever language the deity is revered in (Jord/Eorth to the Germanic peoples, Terra Mater, literally "Earth Mother" in Rome and Gaia in Greece). A different goddess of the earth and Fertility (Germanic Nerthus, Celtic Danu, Greek Demeter and Roman Ceres). Another pattern is a masculine deity of fertility which usually, but not always has an association with Thunder or lightning (Celtic Taranis, Germanic Thor/Thunar, Vedic Indra and [possibly, but uncertainly] Greek Dionysos and Roman Bacchus).

I could literally go on forever. We see however that by breaking the theology, mythology and linguistics of deities, we see more and more that it is at the very least highly likely that these gods have a common origin. So just because a hymn to Thor wasn't written down before say the Viking age, we know that the praises to The Thunder God was being practice long before Imperial Rome had any conflicts with Germans or the Gaulish.

Another note: We actually DO have written and archaeological evidence of polytheism before Rome's conquest throughout Europe, just not within Europe itself. We have ruins and actual translated texts of Egyptian holy books (such as the Egyptian book of the dead) which are dated to be written at least 3550 years ago, much longer before imperial Rome. Granted it wasn't IN Northern Europe, but the polytheism that existed a long long time ago in places like Egypt, Japan, India, The Americas etc. leads us to believe that we as humans remained consistently polytheistic for thousands of years since we were in Africa. This is a root belief in humanity, it's practically in our DNA.

I'm not trying to proselytize, just pointing out the cultural and linguistic theories and facts.

Since you didn't post any sources, I'm going to have to doubt your information.

Writing first appeared in Denmark in the first century AD (the so-called "runic script") and was merely an adaptation of the Roman Alphabet.

Your reference to Egyptian sources doesn't pan out. No such influence of Germanic tribes ever existed (obvious geographic and linguistic problems).

If you could provide a link that would help.

 

[EyeofOdin]

Since you didn't post any sources, I'm going to have to doubt your information.

Writing first appeared in Denmark in the first century AD (the so-called "runic script") and was merely an adaptation of the Roman Alphabet.

Your reference to Egyptian sources doesn't pan out. No such influence of Germanic tribes ever existed (obvious geographic and linguistic problems).

If you could provide a link that would help.

You misunderstand, there is not a strong connection (although some would argue that there is one) between Egyptian polytheism and Celtic/Germanic.

I haven't the sources as I saw them in websites, classes and books a long time ago, but I'll find some if you think that I am so ignorantly throwing around false information...

Proto-Indo-European religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you have a vendetta against Wikipedia, here's something else
Proto-Indo-European Religion
[youtube]TPh03KsGrAA[/youtube]
Latin and Its Indo-European Language Family - YouTube
the last link isn't just some youtube video from some guy in the middle of god knows where. He's a Latin Teacher and studies Indo-European lingual roots as well.

If those are insufficient, then you yourself can google "Indo European Religion" or "Indo European Language". I'm not going to sit here and try to prove this to you just like how I'm not going to argue air's existence.

I would like to point out that among Archaeologists, Anthropologists, Historians and Linguists, it isn't even debated whether or not a Proto Indo European Pantheon, Culture or Language existed. If anything, it's debated which roots go where. I mean what were they doing all that time? Communicating through grunts and blindly not even noticing death, natural disasters or nature? And then all of a sudden in the classical age invented overnight a complex inflection system and rich and complex pantheon of gods and goddess? No, they took thousands of years to develop. There is no possible refuting this.

 

[Clarity]

I would like to point out that among Archaeologists, Anthropologists, Historians and Linguists, it isn't even debated whether or not a Proto Indo European Pantheon, Culture or Language existed. If anything, it's debated which roots go where. I mean what were they doing all that time? Communicating through grunts and blindly not even noticing death, natural disasters or nature? And then all of a sudden in the classical age invented overnight a complex inflection system and rich and complex pantheon of gods and goddess? No, they took thousands of years to develop. There is no possible refuting this.

My source for the history of Germanic writing is a collection of essays by the world's leading scholars on the development of writing:

"the World's Writing Systems" (edited by Peter Daniels)

This is where the world of archaeologists, historians and linguists stands. If you can't provide a written source for your claim of pantheism in Germany before the Roman Period, everything you claim will be based on nothing more than our interpretation of rocks and theories that will always be debatable.

I find that when people find something they like, they usually attach to it more longevity than is due. That's what this sounds like to me.

At the end of the day, you don't have direct evidence. That doesn't mean you're wrong, I just have a much more cautious approach.

 

[EyeofOdin]

My source for the history of Germanic writing is a collection of essays by the world's leading scholars on the development of writing:

"the World's Writing Systems" (edited by Peter Daniels)

This is where the world of archaeologists, historians and linguists stands. If you can't provide a written source for your claim of pantheism in Germany before the Roman Period, everything you claim will be based on nothing more than our interpretation of rocks and theories that will always be debatable.

I find that when people find something they like, they usually attach to it more longevity than is due. That's what this sounds like to me.

At the end of the day, you don't have direct evidence. That doesn't mean you're wrong, I just have a much more cautious approach.

Who's saying this guy's wrong? Nobody's saying that Proto-Germanic, Indo-European, Proto-Italic or Proto-Celtic as languages are correct. It's all reconstructed. We can only make theories.

Btw, when I say theory, I mean an explanation with some real evidence, but hasn't been reconstructed or proven.

 

[EyeofOdin]

I think you mean millions. There is an edit feature

No, 1.5 billion years of people are doomed, according to the bible, because they haven't accepted Christ.

It's theorized that Homo Erectus, an ancestor species to Homo Sapiens, started to develop animistic myths and possibly even religion.