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A short rant about fascism

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
Many people throw around the world "fascism". Fascism is not Nazism. It is a specific political ideology involving concentrating governmental power into one leader. It began in Italy as a flawed attempt to revive the in itself flawed Roman Empire. The philosophical logic (or lack of thereof) behind fascism was that the centralization of political power into one person would eliminate argument between various parties, allowing the government to be more decisive. Whether or not it applies to Nazism, Communism, etc. is up for debate. The reason it is associated with Nazism us because Adolf Hitler and the actual fascist leader Mussolini were collaborators during WWII.

I used to be a fascist. I was sort of counting on a good leader, I suppose. That is not going to happen, however, let's face it.
 
Bah. All Nazism is Fascism, but not all Fascism is Nazism.

Falangism = Fascism
Franco's weird reactionary thing = Fascism
Italian Fascism = Fascism
Nazism = Fascism
Integralism = Fascism
Peronism = Possibly Fascism
Pinochet's thing = Possibly Fascism
 

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
Or neo nazis hide behind fascism

I've never seen any Neo-Nazi aligning themselves with fascism. Most denounce "leftist fascism", generally a term applied to the ideology behind things like banning the European salute. This is not fascist in itself, but it is a suppressive and insulting law and still a problem.

The "Nazi" salute is an ancient European greeting sign, the Swastika a meaningful symbol that has been used in Europe for thousands of years. Don't let an 8 year stretch of arguably questionable use tarnish the symbols and their meaning. The Swastika, by the way means "eternity".
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Power concentrated in a single individual is autocracy or dictatorship.

Fascism has been defined differently in different times and places. Mussolini sometimes thought of it as simple corporatism, like we currently have in the US:
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”
-- Benito Mussolini
Me, I'd call it totalitarianism, since power was concentrated in a single party or political entity.

Then there is the well known "14 points" view of Fascism:
Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
Oddly, this is not unlike the current US political situation, either.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Power concentrated in a single individual is autocracy or dictatorship.

Fascism has been defined differently in different times and places. Mussolini sometimes thought of it as simple corporatism, like we currently have in the US:

Me, I'd call it totalitarianism, since power was concentrated in a single party or political entity.

Then there is the well known "14 points" view of Fascism:
Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
Oddly, this is not unlike the current US political situation, either.
That's not what Fascist corporatism is. Corporatism is where the branches of industry are merged into single "corporations" representing and leading them all. So there would be a corporation for steel workers, the auto industry, grain farming, etc. The corporations would answer to the government. It's a type of Third Positionism but has things in common with socialism.
Corporatism - Wikipedia

The US government has nothing to do with Fascism. Fascism is actually a definite ideology and not some vague catch-all.
 

SabahTheLoner

Master of the Art of Couch Potato Cuddles
The Swastika, by the way means "eternity".

The Swastika is actually a Hindu-Buddhist symbol connected to peace, wealth and good fortune, and the Sanskrit name Swastika means "object of luck". It wasn't even called a Swastika by the Europeans until the 19th century. And even then it was mostly Germanic in use and called a Fylfot (four-feet). Nazism adopted a tilted variation of the Tibetan Swastika to symbolize hard work (and incorrectly stated that those of Jewish descent lacked qualities related to that).
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
If you don't mind me giving my own answer, public order. That's pretty much the core of it, getting the different social classes to work together to preserve economic/social/political stability and security for the public.

It seems that it would promote a national identity which rallies behind a strong leader.

It'd be like if the Democrats took over, with a strong political identity and took control of everything really, media, education, security, military. Whoever was head of the Democratic party would be a dictator. Government would be very efficient since there would be no opposition party.

We won't have fascism with a two party system, but we probably won't accomplish much as well.
 

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
What are the benefits of fascism?

It's fairly self explanatory if one uses flawed fascist logic. When a government is overseen by one powerful leader, that government will be able to make more concrete, drastic decisions without the input and moderation of the people. The problem is that most decisive people are corrupt individuals who aren't fit to be leaders in the first place.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
The Swastika is actually a Hindu-Buddhist symbol connected to peace, wealth and good fortune, and the Sanskrit name Swastika means "object of luck". It wasn't even called a Swastika by the Europeans until the 19th century. And even then it was mostly Germanic in use and called a Fylfot (four-feet). Nazism adopted a tilted variation of the Tibetan Swastika to symbolize hard work (and incorrectly stated that those of Jewish descent lacked qualities related to that).
It was in use in Europe going back to prehistoric times. The oldest one has been found in Ukraine. It has deep meaning in Germanic and Slavic religion. The Greeks made use of it, too. It doesn't belong to any one group in particular.
 

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
That's not what Fascist corporatism is. Corporatism is where the branches of industry are merged into single "corporations" representing and leading them all. So there would be a corporation for steel workers, the auto industry, grain farming, etc. The corporations would answer to the government. It's a type of Third Positionism but has things in common with socialism.
Corporatism - Wikipedia

The US government has nothing to do with Fascism. Fascism is actually a definite ideology and not some vague catch-all.

It's sort of like Neo-Monarchy. The US is however, more like an aristocratic oligarchy running under the guise of democracy. Nazi Germany was also more of an oligarchy, though not an aristocratic one. Again, it became associated with fascism due to Hitler's collaboration with Mussolini. I'm not sure about Stalinist Russia, though. I think it was borderline fascist.
 

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
The Swastika is actually a Hindu-Buddhist symbol connected to peace, wealth and good fortune, and the Sanskrit name Swastika means "object of luck". It wasn't even called a Swastika by the Europeans until the 19th century. And even then it was mostly Germanic in use and called a Fylfot (four-feet). Nazism adopted a tilted variation of the Tibetan Swastika to symbolize hard work (and incorrectly stated that those of Jewish descent lacked qualities related to that).

It was assimilated into the Far East due to the migration of Indo-European speaking tribes, probably Indo-Iranian ones. The Nazi Party adopted the Swastika as it was a Pagan symbol, associated with European heritage. Heinrich Himmeler also had a strong interest in the Indo-Europeans, albeit one based off of the myth that they were an actual people. He did lead expeditions into the Far East to learn more about Eastern Occultism. The Swastika's origins are however in Europe. It is meant to resemble a rotating wheel, and it symbolizes time, eternity, and balance.
 
Having a strong centralized government with a strong executive is not "fascist." It's just "authoritarian." As far as I'm aware, all Fascist ideologies are authoritarian, but you can be authoritarian and be something else, like, say, Communist, conservative, or even possibly liberal (like the French revolutionaries).
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's not what Fascist corporatism is. Corporatism is where the branches of industry are merged into single "corporations" representing and leading them all. So there would be a corporation for steel workers, the auto industry, grain farming, etc. The corporations would answer to the government. It's a type of Third Positionism but has things in common with socialism.
Corporatism - Wikipedia

The US government has nothing to do with Fascism. Fascism is actually a definite ideology and not some vague catch-all.
But Fascism is anything but cut and dry -- as this thread illustrates. The US does resemble Mussolini's corporatist definition, in that over the last ~30 years corporate mergers have resulted in only a handful of corporations controlling media, agriculture, healthcare, energy, and, unfortunately, Congress, completing the corporate-government merger.
The Princeton study makes this clear. Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy - BBC News
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
It's fairly self explanatory if one uses flawed fascist logic. When a government is overseen by one powerful leader, that government will be able to make more concrete, drastic decisions without the input and moderation of the people. The problem is that most decisive people are corrupt individuals who aren't fit to be leaders in the first place.

Given that much authority, I suspect it would corrupt most folks.
 
The "US is becoming fascist" stuff is pure hysteria. The kind of whinging people have been doing since the beginning of the nation's existence. Every political system has dynasties, factions, and the like. America still has a pretty good turnover rate in its politicians, especially at local levels, and still has lots of public control.

The election of Trump is a prime example of that, I'd argue. The Democrats went completely nuts when he started seriously campaigning, the Republicans tried to get in his way, but he blew through both and still managed to become President. The "oligarchy" couldn't stop him.

Fascism also requires the fascist spirit and ideology, not just fascist policies. Kind of like how if a cult goes and lives on a farm together, they might be sharing everything, but they're not Marxist Communists. But the Fourteen Defining Characteristics don't apply that well now anyways.

#1. Powerful and Rampant Nationalism
Right off the bat, that ****ty article makes a mistake by equating patriotism with nationalism. It mostly focuses on expressions of patriotic sentiment as opposed to the substance of it. I find this questionable, since the symbolism used to be common in general, and since it ignores what the sentiment represents.

American nationalism in this day and age is mostly civic, as even the Right-wing swears that anybody who can file some paperwork and learn to answer a few questions on civics is a full-blooded American. Abdul from Azerbaijan is as much an "American" as somebody who's ancestors have been here for hundreds of years (even though that's patently ridiculous).

Then, you can see where there's been declining respect for America itself and for American heritage among the media especially and the public.

#2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
America sort of lags behind since it's one of the few countries that has a legal death penalty, as well as some other things. To me, though, that just goes to show what pussies the rest of the world has become. It's common sense that if somebody, say, goes on a shooting spree that kills a bunch of kids (<cough> Breivik <cough>), you take their head off, as opposed to buying them a new video game console.

But as far as the trends go, America is/has been moving towards Europe's understanding of "human rights," stupid as it may be, and slow as the process may be.

#3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
This one applies to some degree. "Terrorists" being the main enemy identified. The government has traditionally been reluctant to really point out specific groups, though, hiding behind words like, well, terrorist. What kind of terrorist?

#4. Supremacy of the Military
This one is correct, the US does waste tons of money on its military, and the military is put on way too high of a pedestal. I feel like whatever jerkoff professor made the article, though, failed to include that fascist regimes don't just glorify the military, but also give the military considerable influence over the civilian administration. We haven't really seen that in the US.

#5. Rampant Sexism
No, the laws have for some time been more biased against men.

#6. Controlled Mass Media
The media isn't really regulated in this country, but the mainstream sources tend to have a pro-establishment consensus (FOX for the Republican Party, all the others for the Democrats). This is kind of half-fascist, but the sad irony is that this "fascist" trait is mostly being used to support progressivism, so even then it barely counts.

#7. Obsession with National Security
"Obsession." I wouldn't say the US is obsessed with national security, but it's definitely obsessed with security as a concept in general.

#8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
LOL

#9. Corporate Power is Protected
Agreed.

#10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Disagree. The government both supports the unions and some of the big business interests. There's not a direct conflict between the two.

#11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Public spending on the arts is low, but I think the government is supportive in general of intellectualism.

#12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Depends on the group, but the government is generally rather hung up on this. Excessive punishments, way too many things criminalized. But when it comes to stuff like quelling riots, the government's ****ing useless.

#13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
This one is quite bad in the US. Way less than in Second/Third World countries, but bad compared to where it should be.

#14. Fraudulent Elections
Maybe, I dunno. Tons of fraud in elections, but there is no way of telling if it's to the degree of determining election outcomes.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
But Fascism is anything but cut and dry -- as this thread illustrates. The US does resemble Mussolini's corporatist definition, in that over the last ~30 years corporate mergers have resulted in only a handful of corporations controlling media, agriculture, healthcare, energy, and, unfortunately, Congress, completing the corporate-government merger.
The Princeton study makes this clear. Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy - BBC News
That's still not Fascist corporatism.
 
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