A split thread: Joseph Smith

[rrosskopf]

The era the Israelites in question are from are the Iron Age. The Israelites had iron-working & iron-weapons. Again, for them not to have taken that knowledge with then, it's amazing they made it as long as they did without God continuously reminding them to breathe.

Are we talking about Lehi (circa 600 BC)? We are not talking about a migration of thousands, but only about 30 people.

 

[Nietzsche]

Are we talking about Lehi (circa 600 BC)? We are not talking about a migration of thousands, but only about 30 people.

I swore it was more than that. Was it really only 30? That makes it worse, to be honest. Because then you have to prioritize what you'll need in a brave new world. Metal-workers are really high on that list.

 

[rrosskopf]

Then are you willing to attribute the same to Mohammed?

He had his moments, but he never claimed to have priesthood authority. It is interesting to compare the Quran with the Book of Mormon. The book of Mormon reads like a family history or royal history, while the Quran reads like a long revelation/sermon. There is certainly truth in the Quran, as far as I am concerned, and this is also the position of the LDS church.

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, they have their reward with their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." - Quran 2:62

The Quran even predicts the wickedness of the terrorists, and condemns them.

"And when it is said to them, Make not mischief in the land, they say: We are but peacemakers.
Now surely they are the mischief-makers, but they perceive not. And when it is said to them, Believe as the people believe, they say: Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they are the fools, but they know not. And when they meet those who believe, they say, We believe; and when they are alone with their devils, they say: Surely we are with you, we were only mocking. Allah will pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on." - Quran 2:11-15

 

[Nietzsche]

He had his moments, but he never claimed to have priesthood authority. It is interesting to compare the Quran with the Book of Mormon. The book of Mormon reads like a family history or royal history, while the Quran reads like a long revelation/sermon. There is certainly truth in the Quran, as far as I am concerned, and this is also the position of the LDS church.

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, they have their reward with their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." - Quran 2:62

The Quran even predicts the wickedness of the terrorists, and condemns them.

"And when it is said to them, Make not mischief in the land, they say: We are but peacemakers.
Now surely they are the mischief-makers, but they perceive not. And when it is said to them, Believe as the people believe, they say: Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they are the fools, but they know not. And when they meet those who believe, they say, We believe; and when they are alone with their devils, they say: Surely we are with you, we were only mocking. Allah will pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on." - Quran 2:11-15

Well I can't fault you on consistency, which is genuinely refreshing(not you personally, just most people in your position).

 

[rrosskopf]

I swore it was more than that. Was it really only 30? That makes it worse, to be honest. Because then you have to prioritize what you'll need in a brave new world. Metal-workers are really high on that list.

We are talking about two families, whose sons and daughters intermarried, and their children, and possibly some servants. Nephi certainly knew how to create a bellows and melt ore; he fashioned iron tools when building the ship. What happened to this knowledge, or what happened to the tools, I cannot say. There is evidence that a group of people, who came from the ocean, conquered city after city in Mexico. The evidence that ties them to the Book of Mormon is the Hiron Gagal, a round device which led these people into battle, and into victory; there is a very strong association with the Liahona of the Book of Mormon. I do tend to believe that they used the knowledge of metallurgy, and the knowledge of writing, to conquer and govern indigenous people in the New World, as it isn't long before both the Nephites and Lamanites are numerous enough to have wars. I do not believe any of these wars occurred north of Mexico. In fact, I believe most occurred in a very small area, geographically, in and around the Yucatan and Guatemala, with only the later wars occurring in what is now Mexico.

But when Smith was alive, steel was an extremely specific term, namely because this was still an era of hand-crafting. No one from that era, especially no one from the area that he was brought up in, would use "steel" in such a manner.

There is a caveat that complicates the issue; as others have noted, there is a strong correspondence to the language of the Book of Mormon, and the language of the Bible. Every reference to steel in the KJV Bible of Joseph Smith's day referred to copper alloys. I don't know how to resolve the issue.

But you cannot tell me that ships even a tenth as capable as what they used to get there would've of been useful.

Spanish ships, once they entered into Carribean waters, were literally eaten alive by parasites. Ships would rarely last two years in those seas. Never-the-less the Book of Mormon does mention that the Nephites did build ships, and even used them to transport lumber. Here is an article about the Mayan ships:
Researchers Explore the Seafaring Culture of the Maya — History in the Headlines

 

[Nietzsche]

We are talking about two families, whose sons and daughters intermarried, and their children, and possibly some servants. Nephi certainly knew how to create a bellows and melt ore; he fashioned iron tools when building the ship. What happened to this knowledge, or what happened to the tools, I cannot say. There is evidence that a group of people, who came from the ocean, conquered city after city in Mexico. The evidence that ties them to the Book of Mormon is the Hiron Gagal, a round device which led these people into battle, and into victory; there is a very strong association with the Liahona of the Book of Mormon. I do tend to believe that they used the knowledge of metallurgy, and the knowledge of writing, to conquer and govern indigenous people in the New World, as it isn't long before both the Nephites and Lamanites are numerous enough to have wars. I do not believe any of these wars occurred north of Mexico. In fact, I believe most occurred in a very small area, geographically, in and around the Yucatan and Guatemala, with only the later wars occurring in what is now Mexico.

And you do not see the problems there? You just got done saying how nothing, nothing in history occurs in a vacuum(or atleast, until you reach the point wherein information of something simply cannot make its rounds, which would be the case regarding the Old World & the New). This wealth of knowledge, ages ahead of anything found in C&S America of the time(and arguably ahead of what the Spanish came upon)...just disappears? So completely & entirely that no one would've known it happened at all if not for the BofM?

I want you to understand something; I don't have a problem with Mormons, or Mormonism as a religious idea. I don't have a problem with Joseph Smith either, as at the absolute worst he was no worse a man of anyone else of his time, and I know better than to judge his marriages to girls we'd consider underage now. It wouldn't fly today, but anyone who calls Smith a pedophile or what have you better be willing to apply that term to the over-whelming majority of men from his time period.

My problem is purely as a historian and the serious issues that Mormon chronology presents to both Middle Eastern & New-World societies.

There is a caveat that complicates the issue; as others have noted, there is a strong correspondence to the language of the Book of Mormon, and the language of the Bible. Every reference to steel in the KJV Bible of Joseph Smith's day referred to copper alloys. I don't know how to resolve the issue.

Does that not strike you as somewhat odd, though? We know how poorly translated the KJV is. Why would this text(Smith's) be so similar to it if his source is about as close to a direct line as you can get?

Spanish ships, once they entered into Carribean waters, were literally eaten alive by parasites. Ships would rarely last two years in those seas. Never-the-less the Book of Mormon does mention that the Nephites did build ships, and even used them to transport lumber. Here is an article about the Mayan ships:
Researchers Explore the Seafaring Culture of the Maya — History in the Headlines

I may've worded what I said poorly. I am not talking about the original ships, I fully expect those to be taken apart and reused somewhere else. I am talking about where did all that skill go? Why did they not make more? Again, even assuming they were like the Teleri in the Silmarilion where once they crafted their White Swanships they lost some innate power that would never return to them(having been expended in the crafting of those ships), they could still build extremely seaworthy vessels.

Upon further reflection, that may be a worse oversight than the iron. You have some legit problems with maintaining iron weapons, and with the innate issues of mining iron-ore and smelting it. But shipbuilding? You need wood and things more durable than wood to shape it. That's it insofar as materials. They obviously had the skill, and again, even if they could not craft another transpacific God-Boat, they could've still have made something that would allow them to utterly dominate the Natives of the area, because large-scale ship building simply never caught on in the Americas.

The list of things you can do with a good ship is almost inexhaustible. Look at the Vikings. Despite their small numbers, because of their Longships they were able to exert a wholly disproportionate amount of power & influence, because no one could build anything near as good. This would be even more pronounced in the Americas, where they(the Israelites) would've been the only ones on the block doing it.

 

[Sapiens]

Perhaps this author is also lying, and all these horses don't really exist, and weren't carbon dated to well beyond the Pleistocene extinction. It seems pretty compelling to me. But then, if I am a liar, then you can't trust anything I say.

The Survival of Horses in Pre-Columbian America

If you want the sobriquet of "liar" so that you can feel closer to your prophet, feel free to adopt it. You seem to me a rather nice, though misguided and ill-educated chap so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I read your cited paper. I read the papers that it cited, specifically the paper by Martin (http://users.clas.ufl.edu/mbinford/.../Martin_1973_Discovery_of_America_Science.pdf), and the one by Jones (http://thewildhorseconspiracy.org/2...cent-surviving-native-horse-in-north-america/). I also looked at the reports of finds by MacPhee, by Lundelius and of Anderson's Wolf Spider Cave find.

Let's look at what the literature actually said:

1. Martin said, "... there is no reason why horses could not have survived in isolated areas of North America as late as 2000 B.C." That is rather a far cry from a claim that the did so survive and only goes to small, wild, remnant groups, not the massive horse-using cultures that Smith describes in 14 different places in the BofM.

2. Jones wrote: "There were no Equus samples found in this study in Mesoamerica for the time interval 14,700 BC to 1650 AD." Now that is a bit of a quote mine, so to be completely clear: "By contrast, in North America, there are found Equus samples which do indeed appear in the time frame between the last ice age and the arrival of Columbus. The first of these was found in Pratt Cave near El Paso, Texas, by Prof. Ernest Lundelius of Texas A&M University. Prof. Lundelius responded to my inquiries and provided a horse bone from Pratt Cave which dated to BC 6020 – 5890."

2a. Lundelius reported, "... bone dated to BC 6020 - 5890 (two-sigma calibrated age). The date is corroborated by that of another Equus bone which was found deeper in the strata in the same cave, which dated to 10,230 - 10,030 BC." Sorry, that does not pull Smith's nuts out of the fire, that's at least 8,000 years ago.

2b. Anderson's find was not radio-metrically dated, the sample was not good enough, it was thermoluminescent dated, a technique that is useless for these sorts of remains. It can only determine age, by means of measuring the accumulated radiation dose, of the time elapsed since material containing crystalline minerals was either heated (lava, ceramics) or exposed to sunlight (sediments). Bottom line, dates are not dependable.

Bottom line, no finds of horses in the New World that support Smith's claims, there is no evidence that clears Smith of the charge of being a liar.

 

[rrosskopf]

And you do not see the problems there?

Of course I see the problems here. The problem is that there is little left to show for a society that lasted for a thousand years, and that skeptics think there should be more. The problem is also that skeptics don't want answers that include God in any way. The problem is also one of priority; unless one already knows the truth of what happened, they won't even look for the evidence. It is easy, when focusing on the lack of archaeological data, to imagine that the problems are devastating to the claims of the Book of Mormon. This isn't logical thinking. Lack of knowledge or facts is substantially weaker evidence than actual facts. The problem doesn't just occur with archaeology. Rumors about the Mormons have swarmed the world ever since Joseph claimed to have seen God. Some were complete fabrications, invented by newspapers eager for a story, but low on actual facts. Many rumors came from arrogant men, who saw an opportunity; not believing, even for a second, that there is a God, they took it upon themselves to reveal the "con" to the world. Some of the rumors were started by ministers who needed some way to stem the flow of converts out of their churches. Mormonism literally tore the country apart, and tens of thousands of Mormons had to flee the United States to find safety from the rumor-fueled mobs. It is easy to say where there is smoke, there must be fire, but sometimes smoke is just hot air.

You see, I am sitting on an ice berg and I know it. Everyone else just sees this tiny patch of ice, with no understanding of the depth and breadth that lies beneath the water. The actual facts more than make up for the lack of facts. I have spent half a life studying the dimensions of the iceburg, and they are not insubstantial.

Have you ever heard of Izapa? It is a city sandwiched between two empires, the Maya and the Olmec. They are neither Mayan, nor Olmec, but have some of the characteristics of both, and other characteristics that are all their own. They didn't carve long histories into stone, like the Maya and the Olmec. One might conclude that they didn't have a written language, from the lack of direct evidence, but as you pointed out - some technologies are crucial to civilization, and written language is one of them. Izapa had its heyday from about 300 BC to 300 AD. Stella #5, from Izapa is the largest of the stella discovered there, standing taller than the height of a man. I can use Stella #5 to recount Lehi's dream from the Book of Mormon. Central to the stone is a Tree of Life, very similar to those of Middle Eastern desert lore. Under the tree is an aged, bearded figure, wearing a pointed hat. His name is Lehi, as symbolized by the Jawbone over his head, and he wears the hat of a High Priest in the Jewish religion. He is burning incense, one of the rites of his office. Lehi was led to the tree by an angel, along a path by a river. The river is clearly seen all along the bottom edge of the stella, along with the path that leads to the tree. There are actually six figures beneath the tree, and they represent the six figures in Lehi's dream. The largest figure sits to the right of Lehi and holds a stylus in his hand. This is Nephi, one of the sons of Lehi. According to the Book of Mormon, he was large in stature. Another figure, sitting behind him, holds an umbrella over Nephi's head, to protect him from the sun. This is the privilege of a governor or king, as Nephi was selected by God to be a ruler over his brethren. The gold plates upon which Nephi recorded their history lay at his feet. Two figures have their back to the tree; these are Laman and Lemuel who refused to eat of the fruit. The fruit represents the love of God. Lehi was very worried for his sons Laman and Lemuel after having this dream. They later rebelled against their family, and their religion, after the death of their father. Another figure stands away from the tree while eating of the fruit; many, after eating of the fruit are ashamed and wander down unknown paths and are lost.

 

[rrosskopf]

not the massive horse-using cultures that Smith describes in 14 different places in the BofM

The opposite is true. Horses are rarely mentioned and never in the context of riding or pulling wagons.

"And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land." (Alma 18:9)

The horses were owned by the king, and used as pack animals. His father, Lamoni, also owned horses and used them as pack animals, as part of the royal entourage.

"Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots." (Alma 20:6)

These chariots were not the horse-drawn conveyances of Ben-hur fame, but regal litters, well appointed, and carried by men. Kings in Mesoamerica were not expected to walk, and roads were not well suited for the wheel.

"And they also had horses, ... which were useful unto man..." (Ether 9:19)

This verse refers to the Jaredites, (2000 bc?) and doesn't tell us how common horses were, or what they were used for.

"Whose arrows shall be sharp, and all their bows bent, and their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind, their roaring like a lion." (2 Nephi 15:28)

This is just a quote from Isaiah.

"Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots." (2 Nephi 12:7)

This was another quote from Isaiah.

"Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;" (3 Nephi 21:14)

This is a prophecy which refers to our day.

"And now it came to pass that the people of the Nephites did all return to their own lands in the twenty and sixth year, every man, with his family, his flocks and his herds, his horses and his cattle, and all things whatsoever did belong unto them." (3 Nephi 6:1)

This was about 26 AD, and all it tells us is that some men owned horses.

"And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses." (Enos 1:21)

The after thought of "also many horses" seems to indicate the opposite; that horses were rare in comparison to the other animals. (Circa 400 BC)

There is nothing here that indicates that horses were anything but rare, luxuries of kings, and never used in war. Fully a third of the Book of Mormon is devoted to the subject of war, yet there is not one verse that mentions horses having any significant role in warfare.

Prof. Lundelius responded to my inquiries and provided a horse bone from Pratt Cave which dated to BC 6020 – 5890.

This bone wasn't found in Mesoamerica, but it wasn't far north of Mexico, either. Need I point out that it was found in an area far more conducive to the preservation of bones? It also cuts the previously supposed date of horse extinction in North America almost in half. One bone is all it takes to rewrite scientific theory. We are dealing with a lack of knowledge; there are too few samples to draw meaningful conclusions.

You haven't proven Joseph Smith to be a liar; you merely prefer to think of him that way. Guilty until proven innocent.

 

[Nietzsche]

Of course I see the problems here. The problem is that there is little left to show for a society that lasted for a thousand years, and that skeptics think there should be more. The problem is also that skeptics don't want answers that include God in any way. The problem is also one of priority; unless one already knows the truth of what happened, they won't even look for the evidence. It is easy, when focusing on the lack of archaeological data, to imagine that the problems are devastating to the claims of the Book of Mormon. This isn't logical thinking. Lack of knowledge or facts is substantially weaker evidence than actual facts. The problem doesn't just occur with archaeology. Rumors about the Mormons have swarmed the world ever since Joseph claimed to have seen God. Some were complete fabrications, invented by newspapers eager for a story, but low on actual facts. Many rumors came from arrogant men, who saw an opportunity; not believing, even for a second, that there is a God, they took it upon themselves to reveal the "con" to the world. Some of the rumors were started by ministers who needed some way to stem the flow of converts out of their churches. Mormonism literally tore the country apart, and tens of thousands of Mormons had to flee the United States to find safety from the rumor-fueled mobs. It is easy to say where there is smoke, there must be fire, but sometimes smoke is just hot air.

You see, I am sitting on an ice berg and I know it. Everyone else just sees this tiny patch of ice, with no understanding of the depth and breadth that lies beneath the water. The actual facts more than make up for the lack of facts. I have spent half a life studying the dimensions of the iceburg, and they are not insubstantial.

Do you have the slightest idea how utterly pompous that sounds? It's like reading through the various Reformation letters about how they're going to destroy the Catholic Church totes forever.

Your religion is one of many. It is no greater or lesser than any other. Like all other faiths it is made up of mostly-decent people.

By the by, your conversion rates are some what disingenuous and you know it. It doesn't factor in the people who leave after conversion.

Have you ever heard of Izapa? It is a city sandwiched between two empires, the Maya and the Olmec. They are neither Mayan, nor Olmec, but have some of the characteristics of both, and other characteristics that are all their own. They didn't carve long histories into stone, like the Maya and the Olmec. One might conclude that they didn't have a written language, from the lack of direct evidence, but as you pointed out - some technologies are crucial to civilization, and written language is one of them. Izapa had its heyday from about 300 BC to 300 AD. Stella #5, from Izapa is the largest of the stella discovered there, standing taller than the height of a man. I can use Stella #5 to recount Lehi's dream from the Book of Mormon. Central to the stone is a Tree of Life, very similar to those of Middle Eastern desert lore. Under the tree is an aged, bearded figure, wearing a pointed hat. His name is Lehi, as symbolized by the Jawbone over his head, and he wears the hat of a High Priest in the Jewish religion. He is burning incense, one of the rites of his office. Lehi was led to the tree by an angel, along a path by a river. The river is clearly seen all along the bottom edge of the stella, along with the path that leads to the tree. There are actually six figures beneath the tree, and they represent the six figures in Lehi's dream. The largest figure sits to the right of Lehi and holds a stylus in his hand. This is Nephi, one of the sons of Lehi. According to the Book of Mormon, he was large in stature. Another figure, sitting behind him, holds an umbrella over Nephi's head, to protect him from the sun. This is the privilege of a governor or king, as Nephi was selected by God to be a ruler over his brethren. The gold plates upon which Nephi recorded their history lay at his feet. Two figures have their back to the tree; these are Laman and Lemuel who refused to eat of the fruit. The fruit represents the love of God. Lehi was very worried for his sons Laman and Lemuel after having this dream. They later rebelled against their family, and their religion, after the death of their father. Another figure stands away from the tree while eating of the fruit; many, after eating of the fruit are ashamed and wander down unknown paths and are lost.

That is a LOT of conjecture involving a stone tablet.

 

[Sapiens]

The opposite is true. Horses are rarely mentioned and never in the context of riding or pulling wagons.

"And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land." (Alma 18:9)

The horses were owned by the king, and used as pack animals. His father, Lamoni, also owned horses and used them as pack animals, as part of the royal entourage.

"Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots." (Alma 20:6)

These chariots were not the horse-drawn conveyances of Ben-hur fame, but regal litters, well appointed, and carried by men. Kings in Mesoamerica were not expected to walk, and roads were not well suited for the wheel.

"And they also had horses, ... which were useful unto man..." (Ether 9:19)

This verse refers to the Jaredites, (2000 bc?) and doesn't tell us how common horses were, or what they were used for.

"Whose arrows shall be sharp, and all their bows bent, and their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind, their roaring like a lion." (2 Nephi 15:28)

This is just a quote from Isaiah.

"Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots." (2 Nephi 12:7)

This was another quote from Isaiah.

"Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;" (3 Nephi 21:14)

This is a prophecy which refers to our day.

"And now it came to pass that the people of the Nephites did all return to their own lands in the twenty and sixth year, every man, with his family, his flocks and his herds, his horses and his cattle, and all things whatsoever did belong unto them." (3 Nephi 6:1)

This was about 26 AD, and all it tells us is that some men owned horses.

"And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses." (Enos 1:21)

The after thought of "also many horses" seems to indicate the opposite; that horses were rare in comparison to the other animals. (Circa 400 BC)

There is nothing here that indicates that horses were anything but rare, luxuries of kings, and never used in war. Fully a third of the Book of Mormon is devoted to the subject of war, yet there is not one verse that mentions horses having any significant role in warfare.


This bone wasn't found in Mesoamerica, but it wasn't far north of Mexico, either. Need I point out that it was found in an area far more conducive to the preservation of bones? It also cuts the previously supposed date of horse extinction in North America almost in half. One bone is all it takes to rewrite scientific theory. We are dealing with a lack of knowledge; there are too few samples to draw meaningful conclusions.

You haven't proven Joseph Smith to be a liar; you merely prefer to think of him that way. Guilty until proven innocent.

Even if we grant you an extinction cut in half that does not get into Smith's required time frame.

But lets look at the illogic of your argument. Horses were native to the New World, they were widespread until hunted into either extinction or tiny remnant populations in the far north. When reintroduced as a domestic animal in the late 1400s, horses rapidly established large feral populations. Yet ...you'd have us believe that over the course of thousands of years horses neither escaped and established significant feral populations, nor was such a useful animal placed into widespread service. Sorry, but that strains credibility way past the breaking point. Your reaching way out over the edge. As I observed earlier, you carry apologetics to new heights of codependency.

I can as easily use Stella 5 to illustrate an afternoon scene at Starbucks, that does not make that probable, or even possible.

 

[outhouse]

I can use Stella #5 to recount Lehi's dream from the Book of Mormon. Central to the stone is a Tree of Life, very similar to those of Middle Eastern desert lore.

You can use unicorns and bigfoots too, maybe even a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow??????

 

[rrosskopf]

That is a LOT of conjecture involving a stone tablet.

There are 104 correlations between the stella, and the tree of life dream in the Book of Mormon. That is one hellava coincidence. One may be able to make up a story to fit the representations on the stella, but what are the odds that it already matches a story so completely? Including a reasonable depiction of the names of two of the major characters? If you can't see why Mormons would find this piece of art history compelling, then you aren't really trying.

Stella 3, from La Venta appears to show the meeting of two racially distinct peoples, one of which is represented by the very Semitic looking bearded man. The stone dates to about 600 BC. La Venta isn't far from Izapa.

 

[Nietzsche]

There are 104 correlations between the stella, and the tree of life dream in the Book of Mormon. That is one hellava coincidence. One may be able to make up a story to fit the representations on the stella, but what are the odds that it already matches a story so completely? Including a reasonable depiction of the names of two of the major characters? If you can't see why Mormons would find this piece of art history compelling, then you aren't really trying.

Do you have any idea how many cultures have a World-Tree? All of them. Each and every one. There are several competing interpretations of these Stellas, and it is only Mormons who try to and twist it to support their faith rather than just seeing it as an example of Mesoamerican culture.

Stella 3, from La Venta appears to show the meeting of two racially distinct peoples, one of which is represented by the very Semitic looking bearded man. The stone dates to about 600 BC. La Venta isn't far from Izapa.

It shows the meeting between a Mayan God of some manner and humans. Not really all that different when viewed from the greater Mesoamerican cultural lens.

 

[outhouse]

There are 104 correlations between the stella, and the tree of life dream in the Book of Mormon. That is one hellava coincidence

Wrong.

Those are perceived correlations, and not genuine.

 

[rrosskopf]

According to Title of the Lords of Totonicapán, the Quiche Maya came across the ocean from Pa Tulán, Pa Civán [meaning Bountiful] and were descended from Israel. This book was translated into Spanish in 1834 (four years after the Book of Mormon was published) and translated into English in 1954. The Quiche Maya also lived in the vicinity of the state of Chiapas, Mexico, not far from Izapa.

 

[Katzpur]

Wrong.

Those are perceived correlations, and not genuine.

Would you be so kind as to be more specific. Give us a handful of examples from the 104 correlations and tell us what both the perception and the reality is.

 

[Katzpur]

Do you have any idea how many cultures have a World-Tree? All of them. Each and every one.

I'd say that's more than likely an exaggeration, Nietzsche. Have you honestly studied this aspect of every culture in the world? Do you even know how many cultures there are in the world today? I can understand your skepticism, but exaggerations and outrageous claims tend not to be very effective over the long haul.

 

[rrosskopf]

It shows the meeting between a Mayan God of some manner and humans. Not really all that different when viewed from the greater Mesoamerican cultural lens.

Not according to non-Mormon art historian Tatiana Proskouriakoff of the Carnegie Institution of Washington. She believes the bearded man represents strangers or foreigners. I had some difficulty hunting down the reference, but I believe this is the correct one: Olmec and Maya Art: Problems of Their Stylistic Relation Dumbarton Oaks Conference on the Olmec, 1968

Why would a Mayan God have a Jewish nose and beard?

 

[Nietzsche]

I'd say that's more than likely an exaggeration, Nietzsche. Have you honestly studied this aspect of every culture in the world? Do you even know how many cultures there are in the world today? I can understand your skepticism, but exaggerations and outrageous claims tend not to be very effective over the long haul.

World-Trees are found on every continent, in every corner of every continent. If you find one, I will be simply gob-smacked, because they are found everywhere from Africa to Australia.

Not according to non-Mormon art historian Tatiana Proskouriakoff of the Carnegie Institution of Washington. She believes the bearded man represents strangers or foreigners. I had some difficulty hunting down the reference, but I believe this is the correct one: Olmec and Maya Art: Problems of Their Stylistic Relation Dumbarton Oaks Conference on the Olmec, 1968

Why would a Mayan God have a Jewish nose and beard?

Why do you assume those are inherently Jewish traits?