A Wealthy Teen's Defense For a Deadly Drunken-Driving Crash: "Affluenza"

[Falvlun]

Falvun agreeing with esmith???

I find this interesting, perhaps every defendant should have access to the dream team headed by Johnny Cockran or perhaps rich people should get Prison Delivery boys.....er I mean public defenders?

*checks to see if the sky has fallen, just in case*

Hey, I think I missed the nuances of your argument here, Rev. Are you arguing that it is an acceptable system that people with means have access to better lawyers? Or are you just stating that that's the way it is, and there's not much we can do about it?

 

[Poisonshady313]

*checks to see if the sky has fallen, just in case*

Hey, I think I missed the nuances of your argument here, Rev. Are you arguing that it is an acceptable system that people with means have access to better lawyers? Or are you just stating that that's the way it is, and there's not much we can do about it?

Just the opposite. I think he's arguing that either everyone, regardless of how much money they have, should have amazing lawyers.

Or... everyone, regardless of how much money they have, should have crappy lawyers.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

OK, amend this to "like" Johnny is that better? It still does not change the point. :sorry1:

I'm not advocating everyone have a dream team or that the rich should be given a public defender instead of hiring his or her own defence team...My issue isn't so much with the lawyers looking to exploit current loopholes in the law. My issue is with precedent and fairness set by the courts themselves. Let's not lose focus on this particular kid and his history with the law...

Teen driver involved in deadly crash had prior alcohol citations | wfaa.com Dallas - Fort Worth

16-year-old boy involved in a crash that killed four people June 15 had two prior alcohol violations.

Police in the Town of Lakeside, northwest of Fort Worth, found Ethan Couch with a 12-ounce can of beer and a 1.75-liter bottle of vodka. Just before 1 a.m. February 19, a Lakeside officer gave Couch two citations -- one for being a minor in possession of alcohol, the other for consuming alcohol as a minor.

News 8 obtained court documents related to both citations.

In March, Couch plead no contest in both cases. His mother paid $423 in court costs. As terms of his probation, her son agreed to take an alcohol awareness class and participate in 12 hours of community service, to be completed by June 19.

The current situation...showed that not only was he guilty of the same charge as before but in this situation they found Valium in his system.

Trial Begins For Drunk Driving Teen That Killed Four « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

Evidence showed Couch had valium in his system and a blood alcohol level three times the legal limits.

Keller Teen Gets Probation for Drunken Wreck that Killed 4, ******* Off Just About Everyone

When he was 15, he was found in a parked pickup with a passed-out, undressed 14-year-old girl. Aside from the ticket he received from police, he was not punished.

I wonder if this was the same pickup involved in this most recent incident where he was allowed to use the truck from his father's sheet metal business....

Affluence as a defense? Texas teen Ethan Couch gets probation for killing four in drunk-driving crash | syracuse.com

The teenager and his parents also are the targets of at least five lawsuits from victims' families seeking millions of dollars in damages. The elder Couch's company also is named in the suits because it owned the truck that Ethan Couch was driving.

And let's not forget that the night in question he and his friends stole the beer which lead to 4 people being killed.

Texas teen kills four in drunken crash but gets probation after parents’ wealth blamed | The Raw Story

Couch and his friends had stolen beer from a nearby Wal-Mart store before the crash, prosecutors said.

 

[Reverend Rick]

*checks to see if the sky has fallen, just in case*

Hey, I think I missed the nuances of your argument here, Rev. Are you arguing that it is an acceptable system that people with means have access to better lawyers? Or are you just stating that that's the way it is, and there's not much we can do about it?

Not much we can do about it, but the basic level of legal representation should be improved. For instance, the public defender should have an acceptable ratio of win lose cases.

In other words, if your public defender has never won a case, this should be unacceptable representation.

 

[Apex]

Not much we can do about it, but the basic level of legal representation should be improved. For instance, the public defender should have an acceptable ratio of win lose cases.

In other words, if your public defender has never won a case, this should be unacceptable representation.

I like this idea.

 

[Falvlun]

Not much we can do about it, but the basic level of legal representation should be improved. For instance, the public defender should have an acceptable ratio of win lose cases.

In other words, if your public defender has never won a case, this should be unacceptable representation.

Thanks, that makes sense.

 

[dust1n]

Not much we can do about it, but the basic level of legal representation should be improved. For instance, the public defender should have an acceptable ratio of win lose cases.

In other words, if your public defender has never won a case, this should be unacceptable representation.

...Wait why? Public Defenders are usually defending people charged with crimes, who have usually done the crime. It wouldn't make any sense if a public defender didn't have losses. How does a public defender win, exactly? It's really hard to win a court case when a client has so obviously committed a crime. Wouldn't a win be along the lines of getting the minimum sentencing?

 

[Reverend Rick]

...Wait why? Public Defenders are usually defending people charged with crimes, who have usually done the crime. It wouldn't make any sense if a public defender didn't have losses. How does a public defender win, exactly? It's really hard to win a court case when a client has so obviously committed a crime. Wouldn't a win be along the lines of getting the minimum sentencing?

Come on dust1n, not every poor person is guilty of a crime they are charged with.

PD should stand for Public Defender not Prison Deliverer.

How does a public defender win? Well they could make sure the person is not charged with a higher crime which prosecuting attorneys do all the time, not charged with multiple crimes on trumped up charges, that their rights were not abused, that the evidence is incorrect, that they have access to professional witnesses to challenge evidence.

 

[dust1n]

Come on dust1n, not every poor person is guilty of a crime they are charged with.

Thanks for preemptively face palming yourself for me. When did I even suggest such a thing? What are the rates at which people are brought to court from a crime, but did not actually commit said crime? 5%, 10%, 20%.

So, if I am defending guilty people far more than innocent people, then why would the "win rate" particularly high?

How does a public defender win? Well they could make sure the person is not charged with a higher crime which prosecuting attorneys do all the time, not charged with multiple crimes on trumped up charges, that their rights were not abused, that the evidence is incorrect, that they have access to professional witnesses to challenge evidence.

So, how does one quantify all of these things to determine who has a high enough win rate to be a public defender.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I guess this boils down to determining if - or how much - of justice is an inalienable right, or if - or how much - it is a commodity that can be bought for the right price.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Thanks for preemptively face palming yourself for me. When did I even suggest such a thing? What are the rates at which people are brought to court from a crime, but did not actually commit said crime? 5%, 10%, 20%.

So, if I am defending guilty people far more than innocent people, then why would the "win rate" particularly high?



So, how does one quantify all of these things to determine who has a high enough win rate to be a public defender.

By winning 5%, 10%, 20% of their cases.

How about at least winning one case? How many public defenders have never won a single case? Would you want a lawyer like that?

 

[Reverend Rick]

I guess this boils down to determining if - or how much - of justice is an inalienable right, or if - or how much - it is a commodity that can be bought for the right price.

No doubt, are rich folks more innocent than poor folks? Why do high priced lawyers do so well with their win percentages?

If people like just1n cannot see that poor folks get railroaded into prision, I'm not sure I can get my point across. He is correct about the 5-20% thing however, so why do the public defenders not have a win rate even close to that?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No doubt, are rich folks more innocent than poor folks? Why do high priced lawyers do so well with their win percentages?

If people like just1n cannot see that poor folks get railroaded into prision, I'm not sure I can get my point across. He is correct about the 5-20% thing however, so why do the public defenders not have a win rate even close to that?

Oy, we could go into a long debate about how government-provided services match up to the private sector in quality. Can't we?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Oy, we could go into a long debate about how government-provided services match up to the private sector in quality. Can't we?

You know me too well Heather.

Thing is, are not prosecuting attorneys government employees as well? Perhaps we need to have the two sides switched?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You know me too well Heather.

Hahaa! We know each other too well. I'll be working in both the private and the public sector at the same time starting next month as a business owner and as faculty at the local state university. I'm interested in comparing and contrasting side by side benefits and liabilities in quality, in revenue, and in the manner of spending. I may start a thread sharing my experiences in 2014.

Thing is, are not prosecuting attorneys government employees as well? Perhaps we need to have the two sides switched?

That's an interesting position, and potentially extremely insightful as to the nature of prosecuting state attorneys, the quality of their case history, and public defenders, and the quality of their case histories. Both are government employees, but what is the win-loss ratio of both sides when in situations where they face each other?

Numbers don't lie.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Numbers don't lie.

Well said, I'm thinking Procecuters get paid more than public defenders do and are a higher caliber lawyer over all. If they are equal, we should be able to let them trade places now and then just to see what happens.

Another thing I have always suspected, high priced lawyers might be giving the judges some of the fees.

You see many of them saying they can fix something but it will cost you this amount.

I had a legal problem once and my lawyers postponed my case till the judge went on vacation. His buddy was the replacement and we settled things in his chambers. I did not even have to stand up in court, I sat in a comfortable chair and said nothing.

This was small stuff, not a felony or anything like that.

 

[Curious George]

Well said, I'm thinking Procecuters get paid more than public defenders do and are a higher caliber lawyer over all. If they are equal, we should be able to let them trade places now and then just to see what happens.

Another thing I have always suspected, high priced lawyers might be giving the judges some of the fees.

You see many of them saying they can fix something but it will cost you this amount.

I had a legal problem once and my lawyers postponed my case till the judge went on vacation. His buddy was the replacement and we settled things in his chambers. I did not even have to stand up in court, I sat in a comfortable chair and said nothing.

This was small stuff, not a felony or anything like that.

What you are insinuating is not how the majority of courts work. I am not saying that there are not corrupt judges, but that is far from the reality. The maneuvers to get a more favorable judge or forum, obviously happens, but not those maneuvers are constricted by other factors.

There are plenty of good public defenders out there, but often the cream rises to the top and after establishing a good reputation good public defenders move to an area where they can make more money, have more control over their cases they select, and have a lighter case load. A lot of public defenders defend a wide variety of crimes compared with private practice lawyers. Further, if one has the money to pay for a private lawyer, one also has the money for better discovery and experts. This creates quite a difference.

Ultimately, I am not going to argue that there is no difference in caliber between public defenders and private practice or prosecution, but the difference is not as guaranteed as has been suggested. Moreover there are other factors at play, such as discovery and experts.