A western Islam?

[sandandfoam]

Hi all

I continue to stumble towards submission.
I understand that Islam is a universal religion. However, there does seem to be a share of culture embedded in it. I suppose that's only natural? As more Europeans and Americans revert to Islam I imagine something distinctive might emerge.
Do you agree?
If not, why?
If so, what shape do you think Islam will take in west? What will a western Islam look like?

 

[elmarna]

With the diversity in america & a thinking where more than 1 culture is considered.
I can say that as Buddist have a distinct "american flavor" in the USA & the world of subject matter is no different than the world it came from so can it be for Islam. It is a reasonable assumption,but, not a truth!

 

[beenie]

Of course it's natural. Islam came from a very unique culture in a very different time.

I believe you can have the same moral beliefs and practices progress with time, and that it's mainly culture that is preventing Islam from progressing in the first place.

 

[sandandfoam]

Salaam Alaikum Stephan,

I am wondering, what do you mean when you say .....
If you could maybe discuss some particular examples I think we could take this conversation farther.

Hi Bismillah,

It seems to me for example, that Islam can appear very strict. I think that is a function of how the message is presented rather than the message itself.

 

[Bismillah]

Salaam Alaikum Stephan, strictness in anything in particular

 

[sandandfoam]

Salaam Alaikum Stephan, strictness in anything in particular

It is just a general perception of mine. I called to a mosque and the people there were very polite, welcoming and nice. However I perceived them as strict. They were not of the same culture as I. I attribute my perception of them as strict to a cultural difference between us.
I have been trying to think of an example that might illustrate this:-
Say for example in this attitude to alcohol

Mustapha, a Muslim checkout worker at the company’s store in Swiss Cottage, northwest London, interrupts his work to ensure that he does not have to sell or handle alcohol.
Each time a bottle or can of alcohol comes along the conveyor belt in front of him, Mustapha either swaps places discreetly with a neighbouring attendant or raises his hand so that another member of staff can come over and pass the offending items in front of the scanner before he resumes work.

from Muslim checkout staff get an alcohol opt-out clause - Times Online
Mustapha's attitude would seem strict to me, and I could not operate to this standard. It would be too strict and alien to me.

on the other hand, this attitude (of Tariq Ramadan)

He stresses that a Muslim's freedom of religion is very extensive in the West, and that permission for "un-Islamic" activities, such as drinking, or pre-marital sex, does not compel Muslims to do anything. Only a few situations warrant the invocation of the "clause of conscience" which allows a Muslim to make it clear that certain actions or behaviours are in contradiction of their faith. These are, participating in a war whose sole desire is for power or control; fighting or killing a fellow Muslim, unless their attitude is unjust or wrong; participating in an unlawful transaction (such as purchasing insurance, burial, incorrect slaughter). He stresses that in such cases the situation should be carefully analysed, and the degree of compulsion considered. Only non-violence and negotiation are acceptable in these cases

seems less strict to me and I would have no problem operating to this standard.

 

[beenie]

Tariq Ramadan is a man with a great deal of knowledge and common sense. I would go with his analysis.

As for Mustapha, get a job somewhere else. It irritates me to no end when people place themselves in situations they don't agree with, only to raise a ruckus making everyone else aware of their stance. Get over yourselves, people. Your poopoo smells too.

 

[Bismillah]

Salaam Alaikum Stephan,

As per your example the reason why the man does this is because if he is involved in the sale of impermissible items he shares a burden of the guilt, irregardless of whether he consumes the alcohol or not.

And cooperate in righteousness and piety, but do not cooperate in sin and aggression.
[Qur'an 5:2]

I think however that the man is at fault, not religion. It is his place as a member of society to work, that is his obligation. He would do better to leave that job and find another where he does not encumber his coworkers.

As for the quoted article I am a bit confused by it.

permission for "un-Islamic" activities, such as drinking, or pre-marital sex, does not compel Muslims to do anything.

Does this mean a Muslim is asked whether he can do any of these things or whether another person under his care can? For example a Muslim father is asked by his daughter if she can drink?

 

[beenie]

Salaam Alaikum Stephan,

As for the quoted article I am a bit confused by it.

Does this mean a Muslim is asked whether he can do any of these things or whether another person under his care can? For example a Muslim father is asked by his daughter if she can drink?

Bismillah, I had to read that a few times, but I *think* I understand it. I think he's saying that Muslims are not compelled to participate in those activities, so selling liquor, in this instance, isn't in the same category as consuming it himself. That's my take on it, perhaps I'm wrong...

Again, if someone is opposed to a large part of their job, then s/he should seek employment elsewhere. Certainly there are places Mustapha could work that he doesn't have to sell liquor.

 

[sandandfoam]

Does this mean a Muslim is asked whether he can do any of these things or whether another person under his care can?

Thanks Bismillah,
I take it to mean that these things are part of the wider society in which we live and that tolerance dictates we allow others behave as they see fit

That's a great example. Thanks again.
I imagine my daughters will drink. I'll advise them not to over do it and I do not drink myself so would hope they will come around to my way of thinking. But I will not force my views on them.
Culturally I think it would be unacceptable in my country for a man to instruct his adult daughters what to do or what not to do.
I feel that what Dr. Ramadan is getting at in talking about an emerging 'Western Islam' is one which would facilitate views like mine (Perhaps I am wrong?). I think that Islam as practiced in other cultures would frown on a view such as I have just expressed. I think that is culture rather than religion?
Perhaps I am mistaken?

 

[Bismillah]

I take it to mean that these things are part of the wider society in which we live and that tolerance dictates we allow others behave as they see fit

That much we can easily agree on. However, one's own affiliation should not be with those things that are haraam. By affiliation it does not mean cutting off ties with the non-Muslim world but eliminating the environments and social circumstances which would have us compromise our faith or aide in the facilitation of those materials which are considered impermissible.

I imagine my daughters will drink. I'll advise them not to over do it and I do not drink myself so would hope they will come around to my way of thinking. But I will not force my views on them.

Of course, you would be obligated to share your world view and instruct them to your reasoning why. Ultimately however the choice is up to them.

[SIZE=-1]But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you). [Qur'an 16:82]

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you (of your own choice) a guardian over them. [Qur'an 16:107][/SIZE]

Culturally I think it would be unacceptable in my country for a man to instruct his adult daughters what to do or what not to do.

I agree as well, not only culturally but also religiously. Prayers done in fear of the stick will cease once the stick vanishes. Decisions can only be accepted internally not through external force.

I feel that what Dr. Ramadan is getting at in talking about an emerging 'Western Islam' is one which would facilitate views like mine (Perhaps I am wrong?). I think that Islam as practiced in other cultures would frown on a view such as I have just expressed. I think that is culture rather than religion?
Perhaps I am mistaken?

To be honest I am still trying to differentiate between the two. While I would certainly agree with all you have said so far there would be an inherent difference between my first example for example and another one in which as a Muslim father my daughter decides to drink alcohol and I purchase alcohol for her. That is facilitation of alcohol and even though I am not drinking it I am tacitly encouraging her to.

As far as cultural versus religious I think I can see where you are coming from. Extending my example I can certainly see where in Pakistan were a women to drink alcohol (if it were not illegal) her parents would force her to stop. From one point of view I can see the origins of this coming from the high place of respect that is commanded to parents in Islam. From this position of authority some people may assume to totally command the lives of their children (something against Islam).

But I can also see that in comparison to traditional Eastern societies as opposed to Western ones there is a very large emphasis on the collective group whereas the West emphasizes the individual. The idea of personal and family honor is also very prominent in Eastern societies.

Simply put I think that parts may be traced back to religious ideal and then pushed past their boundaries combined with social and cultural norms could lead to this particular example.

 

[Peace]

Thanks Bismillah,
I imagine my daughters will drink. I'll advise them not to over do it and I do not drink myself so would hope they will come around to my way of thinking. But I will not force my views on them.
Culturally I think it would be unacceptable in my country for a man to instruct his adult daughters what to do or what not to do.

And here where the importance of education in Islam comes to the surface. The role of parents in Islam is to educate their children, the show them the right from wrong,... etc. Who would educate them if not one's parents? When these children grow to become adults they grow with that baggage as a backgroud and then when they act they are aware of what they are doing.

 

[Peace]

Concerning the example of Mustapha, he should have looked for another job instead of that one. Beside not consuming alcohol, a Muslim should also not hold it or sell it or even buy it for someone else.

 

[sandandfoam]

Beside not consuming alcohol, a Muslim should also not hold it or sell it or even buy it for someone else.

Thank you Peace.

I'm not especially hung up on alcohol - but it is proving very useful to illustrate what I perceive as cultural differences.
In practical terms, alcohol is such a huge part of our culture that it would be impossible for me to not hold or buy alcohol. I can't think of anyone we know apart from myself who doesn't drink.
Because of the culture we live in, I imagine if a western Islam emerged it might have a different attitude to, for example, alcohol consumption by non-muslims.
Maybe I'm mistaken

 

[Landerage]

Hi all

I continue to stumble towards submission.
I understand that Islam is a universal religion. However, there does seem to be a share of culture embedded in it. I suppose that's only natural? As more Europeans and Americans revert to Islam I imagine something distinctive might emerge.
Do you agree?
If not, why?
If so, what shape do you think Islam will take in west? What will a western Islam look like?

It's hard for a muslim to practice Islam without a supporting community. I saw the other day on TV a european woman who converted to Islam and her family were against it, it was very hard for her to practice what she beleived in her social environement and had to immigrate to Dubai and leave her family and friends to where the community is more Islam-supporting. She traveled not because her parents aren't supportive or doing something wrong towards her beleif, but because it's hard to have so much patience to hold her faith without seeing others that she can learn from.
I think the base that Islam can settle on in western and european countries, is to have more communities where muslims can learn from each other, go to the same mosque, take lessons and lectures. That doesn't mean an closed community but a supporting community.

 

[sandandfoam]

I think the base that Islam can settle on in western and european countries, is to have more communities where muslims can learn from each other, go to the same mosque, take lessons and lectures. That doesn't mean an closed community but a supporting community.

Thanks Landerage,
I would see what you propose as islands of islam in Europe rather than a European Islam - if you know what I mean?

 

[Landerage]

Thanks Landerage,
I would see what you propose as islands of islam in Europe rather than a European Islam - if you know what I mean?

Yes but not in a closed way, but it's just like going to a shop and finding what you need. If a person is a muslim he would go there and find what he need, support, and increase in knowledge, but if a person is not a muslim he still have the chance to learn about a new religion and culture form.

 

[ScottySatan]

As more Europeans and Americans revert to Islam I imagine something distinctive might emerge.
Do you agree?
If not, why?
If so, what shape do you think Islam will take in west? What will a western Islam look like?

Revert to islam? Did you mean that intentionally?

I see one difference that cultural differences mean. A lot of American muslim women don't cover their hair. I wonder if it's because hair is seen as something sexy in the middle east but, but less so in the US? Some people feel alienated to see others make a big deal out of covering their hair our of modesty when they couldn't care less what your hair looks like.

 

[sandandfoam]

Revert to islam? Did you mean that intentionally?

Hi ScottySatan,

Yes, I did. From a muslim pov people revert.

 

[Starsoul]

I imagine my daughters will drink. I'll advise them not to over do it and I do not drink myself so would hope they will come around to my way of thinking. But I will not force my views on them.

Ofcorse you cant. But informing them of the consequences of their choices is a parent's job. If your family follows the christian faith, it is also not allowed to drink and eat pork according to the old testament, I guess many christians wont agree with this but thats another issue.

Culturally I think it would be unacceptable in my country for a man to instruct his adult daughters what to do or what not to do.
I feel that what Dr. Ramadan is getting at in talking about an emerging 'Western Islam' is one which would facilitate views like mine (Perhaps I am wrong?). I think that Islam as practiced in other cultures would frown on a view such as I have just expressed. I think that is culture rather than religion?
Perhaps I am mistaken?

Perhaps you mean to subject/intend to submit Islam to your views and opinions rather than accept the stance of Islam and submit to its views? Think over it. Besides, Islam only stresses on informing those around you, if you're giving your children a well informed advice, it by no means, means that you're trying to subjugate them. They will still do what they feel like, if they have been brought up by the western values, they wont find it necessary to follow you.

In Islam, parents hold a very important place in a person's life, and it is true that there have been many number of times that children tend to revolt against the parents, but it is also my observation that we always act saner, sensible when we listen to what our parents say. One's children can learn the lesson on their own, but its always good to talk about it with them, less they seek far more insincere advisers out there, who do not even mean well for them, they way our own parents do.