• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Abiogenesis

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The burden is on him (Descartes) to show that thought implies existence, rather than to presume that it does. In his defense I will admit this is not the point of his argument. If he wanted to argue that we exist he might come up with something better.

But yes thought might be nothing but illusion. Suppose that there are mathematical hyper-graphs which can represent time and space. Then all of our thoughts and actions can simply be part of those along with the universe and many other possible universes. In which case existence is not, and in which case thought is no evidence for existence.
I don't think that's quite what Descartes was really getting at. It is my view that what he was trying to say is that "if there is a thought, there must be a thinker." That is, a thought is the product of some sort of process, and processes require a basis in reality.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Well hopefully, the atheists might eventually settle on a single story. Genesis never did.
Genesis works under the assumption of a thinking and planning God; brooding over the deep, thinking. Evolution is also part thinking and planning. The theory of Natural Selection implies a level of objectivity that enhances life. Modern evolution is also part casino math; genes randomly change and periodically lotteries are won. While the logic of natural selection knows enough to make the right choice.

Darwin; via natural selection, was not too far from the Genesis approach, in assuming a deliberate approach. Natural selection is an abstraction that gives me the feeling of nature making sound choices, and not depending on the throwing of dice. Does any Atheist see natural selection and Mother Nature connected to the whims of the gods? I always assumed Mother Nature was based on anticipated rational platform, with choices optimized to the natural potentials in each ecosystem. The approach of Mother Nature and that of Darwin, were woven from the same foundation as Genesis; deliberate choices for the Earth.

When humans raise food; plants and animals, we make breeding selections based on best performance criteria; human selection. We do not walk around the field, blind folded, grabbing a random samples, unless all are perfect. Both God and Mother Nature worked this way; paradise. Since these are higher, and humans are considered lower, human advanced by coping the gods; logically plan and execute breeding choice. They are using applied science which beats the odds of random.

The Life science, more recently added the whims of the gods to Life, because life was very complex, and the early logic could not simplify all the complexity. We knew about the role of DNA, but that was not enough to explain all things. The black box of casino math was originally seen as a powerful and useful tool, where you did not need complete theory, since all theory would be placed in the black box, anyway. You instead depended on inputs and outputs and marigins of error. However, this approach is not fully rational, like Mother Nature or God, who both show constant results with vigor and health, in nature. The natural garbage cans are not as full as a bioscience lab. Mother Nature would need to know nature well enough to make it beautiful; applied science needs solid theory and not lottery and dice.

Making Life simpler:

There is a way to make life simpler, so we can explain more of life in a purely rational way. It involves water, becoming the steering force for evolution and life, starting at abiogenesis. Water has not changed since the beginning of the first molecules of water in the universe. Water is very stable and the second more common molecule in the entire universe behind only H2. Carbon monoxide is close to water. Being the majority component of all life, and by far the most common molecule in life; by numbers, water supplied/supplies the same chemical potentials, for all forms of life, all through history. It is an eternal bookend. We cannot substitute for water, but we can substitute for genes and proteins in evolution. Water controls natural selection of chemicals at the chemical nanoscale.

Water is a bookend, that is the same for all life, at all points in time, The organics are endless in variety, which makes it harder to approach life from that side. I can see how statistical analysis helped with this more complex and variable bookend. But water is one molecule, that was always in contact with all the organic variety, through the liquid continuum/matrix of water.

This one Swiss army knife variable makes it easier to integrate, all the variety of organics, since each organic can finger print the water matrix; hydration shell within the water matrix. This simplicity is the future, allowing rational things, you cannot now do, using the more difficult random approach of many organic needles in a changing haystack.

This water path was known, from at least the 1950's, but it would need to wait, since experiments with water, in situ, were and are still much harder to do than organic experiments. But enough bio-water data has been generated by 2023, to piece a water model of life together.

Let me show you a simple analysis that gives the water of life an edge. There are three states of matter, gas, liquid and solid. Gases by definition can show pressure; push, but not tension; pull. Once a gas forms, it is free and exerts pressure bouncing off other gas molecules, but the binding forces are so small, tension is minimal.

Solids can show both pressure and tension. We can push or pull a solid, but not both at the same time and reach a steady state. If we push and pull a car it will move or rotate.

The liquid state in unique in that liquids can show both pressure and tension at the same time and still reach steady state. We can have a glass of water, ope to the atmospheric that sees pressure and surface tension with the air. This is quite bizarre. Liquid water can confer this to life, due the binary nature of hydrogen binding switches, showing difference in volume; both pressure and tension, even on the same water molecule. This ability of liquid water, and the ability to pass this information; tension and pressure at reach a steady state, allows the water matrix to change settings and see steady state; global affect.

Another liquid state special affect, connected to water and life, needed for life, is osmosis. If we have two chambers of water connected by a semi-permeable membrane, with one side having more dissolved solutes; salt, sugar, etc., an osmotic pressure will form, where water will migrate toward the side with the solutes. This is driven by entropy. The semipermeable membrane, allows water to freely flow, but not the solute. The solute would like to mix, to form a uniform solution on both sides, but since it cannot, the water ends up with the entire entropic burden. This can cause water to push upward against gravity. Water can use the potential of the ions, to help it do work, by setting up the organics to help; selective natural membranes.

The hydrogen proton is the fastest thing in water. It can freely move, jumping from water to water; pH affect. All other things in water, have to carry around hydration spheres, which slows them down compared to the hydrogen proton. If we look at the brain, which used ionic currents, this is the slow poke step we see that is easy to measure. The hydrogen protons of water are already way forward at the goals, first. The brain's water is really the future of the brain research and consciousness, offering such things a proton tunneling pairs.
 
Top