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Abiogenesis

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
What argument? You've made no supporting argument. All you have done is make a claim which I address. Over and over and over again. That's not ignoring it. You on the other hand...again have ignored ever request I've made.

:facepalm:Okay that's what you claim. Now what's your supporting evidence?:shrug:

Okay, more claims. So what is your argument that shows I am not being rational here? What rational "rules" am I breaking?

Okay, you've made the claim...again...that I have no scientific evidence. I've make a counterpoint by showing you exactly what the scientific evidence I am using is. You keep repeating the same thing. You need to show me why the evidence I proposed is not scientific.

I did and told you exactly what that evidence is. Do you have any counterpoints to what I've shown you?

I'm wondering if you've lost the gist of this discussion and what its about? Credence or not is determined in the debate, which usually requires replies to points and counterpoints until an agreement can be made. If you refuse to make counterpoints which support your claims, as I've requested on numerous occasions then I think were at an impasse here and should move on to other things. I gave it a good try.

Have you consider that both sides can't establish any of the positions as a fact.
You: I have the facts.
SZ: No, I have the facts.
Me: I have no facts and apparently all 3 of us are here. Now what?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What argument? You've made no supporting argument. All you have done is make a claim which I address. Over and over and over again. That's not ignoring it. You on the other hand...again have ignored ever request I've made.

:facepalm:Okay that's what you claim. Now what's your supporting evidence?:shrug:

Okay, more claims. So what is your argument that shows I am not being rational here? What rational "rules" am I breaking?

Okay, you've made the claim...again...that I have no scientific evidence. I've make a counterpoint by showing you exactly what the scientific evidence I am using is. You keep repeating the same thing. You need to show me why the evidence I proposed is not scientific.

I did and told you exactly what that evidence is. Do you have any counterpoints to what I've shown you?

I'm wondering if you've lost the gist of this discussion and what its about? Credence or not is determined in the debate, which usually requires replies to points and counterpoints until an agreement can be made. If you refuse to make counterpoints which support your claims, as I've requested on numerous occasions then I think were at an impasse here and should move on to other things. I gave it a good try.

Try not to be excessively rude and we might be able to have a conversation. One of the first things you need to lean in a conversation is not to interrupt. Second your use of a facepalm was inappropriate because the explanation immediately followed your demand. If you did not understand the explanation you should ask questions. If you disagree with the explanation then you would need to refute it.

What you called "evidence" does not qualify as evidence in this sort of discussion. I already told you why. I supported that claim. You could only deny it. You did not even try to refute it. Denial is not a refutation.

Try again.
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
Try not to be excessively rude and we might be able to have a conversation. One of the first things you need to lean in a conversation is not to interrupt. Second your use of a facepalm was inappropriate because the explanation immediately followed your demand. If you did not understand the explanation you should ask questions. If you disagree with the explanation then you would need to refute it.

What you called "evidence" does not qualify as evidence in this sort of discussion. I already told you why. I supported that claim. You could only deny it. You did not even try to refute it. Denial is not a refutation.

Try again.
Okay...as you say. Moving on now. You take care.
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
Have you consider that both sides can't establish any of the positions as a fact.
You: I have the facts.
SZ: No, I have the facts.
Me: I have no facts and apparently all 3 of us are here. Now what?
I have considered that. That was not the goal of my proposition. As a matter of "fact" I can't think of one theory that has reached that goal. I've presented certain relevant facts involving the proposition but as you say cannot prove the proposition a fact. I can only defend it in so much as I can refute counterarguments. That is the only possible achievable goal here. For anyone.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I have considered that. That was not the goal of my proposition. As a matter of "fact" I can't think of one theory that has reached that goal. I've presented certain relevant facts involving the proposition but as you say cannot prove the proposition a fact. I can only defend it in so much as I can refute counterarguments. That is the only possible achievable goal here. For anyone.

We are in effect playing limited cognitive relativism. Not that a part of the everyday world is objective, but in effect not of all of the world is objective.
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
I see, You cannot form a rational response. Then why do you complain so vigorously when I point out that your ideas are mere pseudoscience?
I'm pretty sure, at this point, that you do not know what a rational response looks like. My "complaints" aren't about you pointing something out. Its that you don't justify your claims with the evidence that you so vehemently say I haven't presented. Isn't that somewhat hypocritical?
All of your statements cannot stand alone.
"You have no evidence.", "You don't understand.", "Its nonsense.", "your ideas are pseudoscience." are all statements which have no merit unless presented with evidence of their truth. You present no arguments for their truth except the statements themselves. You've said I don't listen and yet I've asked you repeatedly to present your argument for why my evidence does not meet your standards and why my argument cannot be logically derived from the theories I've presented for consideration and still you simply offer claims without justification.
As frustrated as you've made me, apart from the affront you probably feel from my first sentence here, from here on out I'm going to try to respond only to positive and uplifting statements from you in like manner. This has gotten out of hand and I fear we've lost the positive purpose these forums should be about.
So think about what you really want from me here before replying again. What is it you think I should do concerning this discussion? Agree with you? Tell you your correct and give you accolades for your success in defeating an opponent in defense of truth, justice, and righteousness? Here's hoping you have a wonderful day...cheers.
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
We are in effect playing limited cognitive relativism. Not that a part of the everyday world is objective, but in effect not of all of the world is objective.
Okay and where does that leave us logically? Do you think that given initial premises we might logically come to a conclusion by playing "if this is true then" games? For the most part, and this is a mystery if you ask me...reality seems to be a consensus of individual experience. That is, even though we are individuals and experience individually, reality seems to be coherent enough to allow us to profitably exist together.
Do you think, to some extent we can augment our "limited cognitive relativism" by exploiting the objective world for mutual benefit and thus collectively decrease those limitations?
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
The question of when DNA began evolving, for me, can be connected to the initial symmetry breaking that generated the fundamental particles and forces, but we can start with later dates if one likes. Once the charges, flavors, and masses of the fundamental particles was established, the eventual appearance of life and mind may have been determined but I don't know how we decide that. The moment of inevitability seems undecidable at this time, and unimportant as well. I don't understand why it has gotten so much attention in this thread.
Reading this I'm wondering how we apply evolution as a model (change over time) correctly. What I mean is if we can agree that the Big Bang event was the initial change in reality, the cause of which has not been definitively determined as of this writing, in which time began, space expanded, matter and forces coalesced out of this expansive energy all in accordance to quantum field theories, breaking symmetries etc. then does this change in the state of reality equate to changes in the states of what this reality contains? Must the one model be applied to the other in synchrony?
To explain further...a simplified and imperfect analogy: If reality is a set containing 10 rows of red balls and 15 columns of green balls (in relation to each other) in a grid and then 5 balls of each color exchange their orientations, column for row, vice versa, we can say reality has altered, it has changed, but the balls themselves remain unchanged. So reality depends on the orientation of the balls in relation to each other but the balls themselves remain unchanged independent of that orientation. Can we say reality has evolved but the balls haven't?
This thought experiment is rudimentary of course and meant to be expanded upon.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm pretty sure, at this point, that you do not know what a rational response looks like. My "complaints" aren't about you pointing something out. Its that you don't justify your claims with the evidence that you so vehemently say I haven't presented. Isn't that somewhat hypocritical?
All of your statements cannot stand alone.
"You have no evidence.", "You don't understand.", "Its nonsense.", "your ideas are pseudoscience." are all statements which have no merit unless presented with evidence of their truth. You present no arguments for their truth except the statements themselves. You've said I don't listen and yet I've asked you repeatedly to present your argument for why my evidence does not meet your standards and why my argument cannot be logically derived from the theories I've presented for consideration and still you simply offer claims without justification.
As frustrated as you've made me, apart from the affront you probably feel from my first sentence here, from here on out I'm going to try to respond only to positive and uplifting statements from you in like manner. This has gotten out of hand and I fear we've lost the positive purpose these forums should be about.
So think about what you really want from me here before replying again. What is it you think I should do concerning this discussion? Agree with you? Tell you your correct and give you accolades for your success in defeating an opponent in defense of truth, justice, and righteousness? Here's hoping you have a wonderful day...cheers.
I explained to you why your ideas were pseudoscience. You ignored the explanations. Or have you forgotten how I showed that your definition of scientific evidence was faulty. Of course you can pretend that the person that you are debating with is not the rational one if you ignore all of their arguments.

And look at you, you screwed up again and had to write another book.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
if we can agree that the Big Bang event was the initial change in reality, the cause of which has not been definitively determined as of this writing, in which time began, space expanded, matter and forces coalesced out of this expansive energy all in accordance to quantum field theories, breaking symmetries etc. then does this change in the state of reality equate to changes in the states of what this reality contains? Must the one model be applied to the other in synchrony?
I'm not sure what you're asking here. Maybe you asking if, once the assorted quarks, leptons, and bosons had crystallized out, was further change a result of this.
If reality is a set containing 10 rows of red balls and 15 columns of green balls (in relation to each other) in a grid and then 5 balls of each color exchange their orientations, column for row, vice versa, we can say reality has altered, it has changed, but the balls themselves remain unchanged. So reality depends on the orientation of the balls in relation to each other but the balls themselves remain unchanged independent of that orientation. Can we say reality has evolved but the balls haven't?
Now I wonder if you are asking whether further change was really change if the initial ingredients are rearranged but the elementary particles remained constant in mass, charge, parity, spin etc..

We're eight pages into this thread, and despite asking you and even suggesting a few ideas, I still don't know what your point is or why you're making it. Why do the answers to these questions occupy your thoughts? I'm just going to take my best guess and let you modify if you like. You think that life and mind were not inevitable following the start of universal expansion, and that this concerns you because you have a god belief and are searching for a role for this god not implied by the present science, which is that gods don't appear to be necessary for these things to have happened.

That may be way off the mark, but starting with a comment like that might be the only way to get the answer I'm looking for. The way you change that will help me understand what greater point you are trying to make and why.

I learned this trick practicing medicine. Some patients simply cannot answer a question meaningfully:

Me: Good morning, Mrs. Johnson. What brings you in today?
Patient: I'm feeling sick.
Me: Sick how?
Patient: Just sick. Not right.
Me: What are some of your symptoms?
Patient: I just don't feel right. I'm not myself. Something's wrong.

At this point, I needed to make a specific wrong guess to make progress:

Me: Are you vomiting?
Patient: No, nothing like that. I'm eating fine. I can't breathe right.
Me: Now we're making progress. Are you wheezing, too?
Patient: Yes

Another common and related occurrence, and how I dealt with it similarly:

Me: How long has that wheezing been happening
Patient: Quite spell, doc.
Me: Since when?
Patient: Right after Missy got her job at the pharmacy
Me: And that was when?
Patient: When she was discharged from the navy.
Me: Which was when?
Patient: The same week junior broke his nose.

You can see that it will be necessary to change course. Again, one approach to getting things moving is to simply guess:

Me: So since last Thursday?
Patient: No, doc. It's been longer than that - about three months.

And if the answer had been, since Aunt Sylvia passed away, they get this:

Me: The next two words out of your mouth need to be a number and a unit of time, like three hours, four months, or two years. How long ...
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Okay, I must have missed it. How did you show that my evidence didn't meet the standards of the definitions you gave?
Your concept must be testable by the predictions that it makes. Scientific evidence consists of observations that support or oppose a scientific theory or hypothesis. And you do not appear to have a testable hypothesis. What tests based upon the predictions of your hypothesis could possibly refute it?
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Me: Good morning, Mrs. Johnson. What brings you in today?
Patient: I'm feeling sick.
Me: Sick how?
Patient: Just sick. Not right.
Me: What are some of your symptoms?
Patient: I just don't feel right. I'm not myself. Something's wrong.
Totally unrelated. There was a TV show in England called The Pink Medicine Show. It was written and performed by a couple of Doctors. Here, from memory, is one sketch.

Doctor: What's the problem?
Patient: I have a pain in my grillocks.
D: OK, drop your trousers, lets have a look.
P: No, not b***ocks, grillocks!
(Doctor has no idea what that might be, but is unwilling to admit it).
D: Please wait a minute.
(He runs down to the medical library and pulls out a book. He scans the entries, "pain in the arm, pain in the ear ..." but finds no entry for grillocks. Note, the book is organized alphabetically by symptom, not organ. He's looking it up under "pain".
He returns to the patient and tries various things, like getting him to point to where the pain is ...).

It went on.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
A billion years - a million millennia - feels like a long time when you're watching the clock.

It did. The first step in the formation of all matter was symmetry breaking, which generated the fundamental particles and forces.

Which is about one billion years after the earth formed.
If you look at our modern universe, the preponderance of the observed natural physical data shows us that the vast majority of the negative charge in our universe, is connected to the electron and the vast majority of positive charge in the universe is connected to the proton. The positron; positive electron, and the negative proton are minor players in comparison.

The current idea of the early universe breaking symmetry, is connected to the base theory that matter and antimatter that formed from photons, are equal and opposite. However, what is theorized to be equal and opposite, somehow ended up like they were not equal and opposite. The universe shifted to more matter and less anti-matter.

The observe universe data tells me that the base theory of equal and opposite is false, or else we would not see this final data disproportion. It makes more sense that matter is the most stable combinations for charge; electron and proton, and that the idea of an original symmetry was bad theory that required we ignore the preponderances of natural data, in favor of synthetic matter formed in the lab.

Matter formed in the lab does not take into account the extreme gravity within the early post BB universe. These lab experiments are run at extreme energy, but very low earth surface gravity and not extreme post BB gravity. Therefore, lab data is not a good data source for simulating the early universe.

As an analogy, water at high temperature and low pressure is called steam or even plasma. If we use the same high temperature, but crank up the pressure; inner earth, we get a totally different phases such as solid metallic water. One will not see latter on the surface. My guess is the lab data at low gravitational pressures shows symmetry, but at extreme gravitational pressures expected of the post BB era, this symmetry does not exist; solidified the electron.

In chemistry matter forms a wide range of phases; phase diagram, depending on the conditions, such as temperature and pressure. Even the earth has distinct layers based on temperature and gravity induced pressures. Since pressure in the early universe would be extreme and would also be due to gravity; gravitons, the phases simulated in the lab, although based on similar extreme temperature; energy, use very low gravity based pressures. The lab data is good but it is in a different zone on the full universe particle phase diagram; low gravitational pressure versus high gravitational pressure zone on the diagram.

Life does something very similar to matter and anti-matter, Z-DNA is one of the many possible double helical structures of DNA. It is a left-handed double helical structure in which the helix winds to the left in a zigzag pattern, instead of to the right, like the more common B-DNA form.

Theory also likes to assume DNA has natural symmetry; left and right handed DNA are equal and opposite like left and right handed proteins. However, the preponderance of natural data show that the right handed helixes of DNA, such as B-DNA, is far more common to life. It has something extra about it that the bias of poor science theory has overlooked. Natural data shows us that DNA, is not under the casino science theory blanket, but have a natural free energy determinism.

The electron is considered an elementary particle, meaning it cannot be broken down any further in particle accelerators. The electron is one thing with two attributes; negative charge and mass. Common sense tells me that the elementary particle nature of the electron, implies it is a state of matter, where mass and negative charge become one thing; mass and negative charge become interchangeable like a single substance.

The proton is not an elementary particle. It can be broken down into smaller parts. The interaction of protons and electrons would therefore not be 100% symmetrical, since the electron uses a unified force; charge/mass, while the proton uses two distinct forces; charge and mass. The electron is not easily pulled into the nucleus, unless the unified force of the electron cooperates; simulates a divided force for charge and mass.

Casino science is a problem, since puts your science brain in the wrong place. There is odds for anything, meaning even bad theory has some chance to win in the casino of science. All things; theories, have positive odds, even if very low, like breaking symmetry. Anyone; theory, can win the science lottery, like anyone can win the TV lottery, since it is not about you or your theory, but something outside; lady luck and odds decide in the end. This has created a dumb down of science. It will ignore the obvious; determined outcomes based on natural data, since lady luck has spoken to them. I like science but casino science is as much a religion as science; faith in Leafy Luck to decide for you and everyone.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
So DNA first came on the scene 1 billion years after the earth formed. To me that seems like to short of a time frame. So the only thing that would make sense is that the evolution of DNA started at the time of the Big Bang theory. That would make DNA's evolutionary time frame 10 billion years which seems more plausible.
If I understand you, your intuition is that the prevailing theory on the time line of DNA's evolution is off by an order of magnitude, correct? 1 billion years vs. 10 billion years?

There are other aspects of evolution science that acknowledge uncertainties that could be several orders of magnitude in error.

So your single magnitude of error claim is just statistical noise, right?
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
If I understand you, your intuition is that the prevailing theory on the time line of DNA's evolution is off by an order of magnitude, correct? 1 billion years vs. 10 billion years?

There are other aspects of evolution science that acknowledge uncertainties that could be several orders of magnitude in error.

So your single magnitude of error claim is just statistical noise, right?
I like noise
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
That doesn’t keep you from claiming / believing that the Earth formed through natural means of accretion. Lol.

Give us a break.
My theory for the formation of the earth is that the earth came from our sun, as our sun reformed from a first generation star into a second generation star, from the materials of own first generation beginning.

Relatively new data now shows that galaxies and stars formed in the early universe, much earlier than the standard model predicted. What you learn in school is foundational thinking, not the state of the art. The state of the art is still a work in progress.

The 1st galaxies may have formed much earlier than we thought, James Webb Space Telescope reveals

This much earlier time frame of galaxy formation, is when the universe was much smaller, denser and had far more gravitational density. Rapid formation of galaxies was much easier with this higher gravity density. Since the modern universe expands relatively to the galaxies, it is reasonable to assume there was sort of an much earlier than expected condensation into galaxy droplets and then even star droplets; phase separation, that subsequently expanded and still perpetuates even until today. Extreme pressure physics has more phase tricks up its sleeve than the expanding gas and slow random formation models used for foundational thinking.

My belief is our galaxy and sun were part of the first condensation, with the sun a first generation star. The first sun, reached its peak and expanded, and then reformed, along with the planets and moons of our solar system. Our localized solar rebirth, explains the large empty gap between our sun and solar system and the next star; cleared out some room to grow.

To make this possible, requires Solar 1 not go full supernova. This also requires an improved stellar synthesis model, that will allow the first sun or Solar 1, to able to form much higher atoms, even before it expanded and reformed, allowing rocky planets, like the earth. The goal is less bang, but better starting material ability, with more weight, to keep things closer.

The basic theory, to make this all possible, is connected to density differences. If we place a piece of iron in a glass of water, the iron will sink, since iron is much denser and heavier than water. On the other hand, if I hammer the iron into the shape of the hull of a little boat, I can now make the denser iron float on water; battle ship. In terms of atomic synthesis, the electron clouds add volume to the atoms, thereby lowering its atomic density relative to its nuclear density. The more electrons we add, the larger the hull of the ship, the more cargo; nuclear mass, we can haul, and still float on water.

In this stellar model, material density is not based on atomic density, like we have on earth, but ionized atomic density, with loss of electrons to form highly ionized atoms, creating an effect like the hull of the iron ship. What this means is smaller atoms like hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen, etc, will be fully ionized, which is like the block of iron that will sink. While higher ionized atoms like iron, that still retain some inner elections, will have a hull; plasma density hull, and they will float on the nuclear density hydrogen, oxygen, etc.

This model of stellar interior, has a core of fully ionized smaller atoms, surrounded by all the larger, partially ionized; some inner electrons, heavier atoms that will float above the core; are less dense. This heavy atom flotilla, "armada of ships, will act like a containment shell for the fusion reactor core and its smaller and denser atom fuel. This design can passively regulate the reaction rates of the fusion core, so there is never any runaway fusion. This allows stars to last for billions of years.

If the fusion core was to get too hot, this would ionize the shell of the heavy atoms making the shell denser and heavier, thereby restricting diffusion of the denser fuel atoms to the core. This cools the core; sun spots. As the core cools, electrons will add back to the shell and make the shell expand and become less dense, allowing fuel to migrate to the core. This can cause a surge of local fusion; solar flair.

The fuel surge and then the local fusion surge, will explode with fully ionized core atoms hitting the shell, like a hammer hitting a gong; fusion hammer. This is the mother of all particle accelerators and colliders, with the shell the target. The entrained smaller fully ionized atoms helps to build higher atoms and will further thicken the shell; the shell is an atomic synthesis factory. It will segregate by plasma density which ends up as the smaller atoms closer to core for more efficient atom building.

Periodically, the shell will get very thick with higher atoms, and the hydrogen fuel diffusion, from the surface to the core, will becomes more and more rated limited. This can lead to extended cooling of the fusion core, and an exaggerated expansion of the shell. This can lead to a major fuel surge and then a blow out, that cleans out the pipes; blow out parts of the shell. When extreme it can create the material for planets and even a binary star sister. The sun then stabilizes as density differences rebuild the remaining shell.
 
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