Abortion=sin?

[michel]

You have no right to impose your beliefs to control someone elses freedoms choice ....

Oh yes I do. When my taxes pay for your abortion, that gives me a say.

 

[constantine]

Oh yes I do. When my taxes pay for your abortion, that gives me a say.

since when does an american get free medical...off your tax dollars..
to be supporting the general population with your tax dollar you must make at least 6 figures or else you barely support yourself...the average tax payer is subsidized from taxes from the top 5 %

if a law is passed, it should be respected in society like any other and be taken up with the politician not the doctors or women who are terrorized...
your taxes dont pay jackplop for me , what a joke...
it doesnt give you a say to me

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I was surprised to find that this has not always been the case but a few people leading the Church astray does not really matter in the long run so long as their teachings are corrected.

From that perspect, we're talking about a millenium long lapse, and to reduce it to "a few people leading the Church astray" seems unserious.

Furthermore, it completely sidesteps the more fundamental question: what was the lapse and what was the correction - and how do you know? Apparently Victor's predecessors, over a period of centuries, might well have spoken of St. Augustine's reversal as a correction. St, Jerome agreed. Almost a millennium later St. Thomas Aquinas seemed to concur and, after 11 centuries, Pope Gregory XIV stood with Ausustine, Jerome, and Aquinas in correcting Pope Sixtus V efforts to 'lead the Church astray' on this issue.

Quite frankly, I can see no reason to view Church policy on this issue as any more inspired than a flip of a coin.

 

[michel]

since when does an american get free medical...off your tax dollars..
to be supporting the general population with your tax dollar you must make at least 6 figures or else you barely support yourself...the average tax payer is subsidized from taxes from the top 5 %

if a law is passed, it should be respected in society like any other and be taken up with the politician not the doctors or women who are terrorized...
your taxes dont pay jackplop for me , what a joke...
it doesnt give you a say to me

I actually have a right to voice my opinion whether I pay taxes or not (let Jack Plop know that). And I don't need a 6-figure income for Uncle Sam to put his hands in my pockets and give the money to you.

Laws can be changed, and we have a moral obligation to voice our opinion one way or another.

Doctors and women are being 'terrorized'? Somehow I don't feel sorry for them.

 

[Darkdale]

Doctors and women are being 'terrorized'? Somehow I don't feel sorry for them.

Is that a part of showing Christs' love? I guess so. :sarcastic

 

[James the Persian]

From that perspect, we're talking about a millenium long lapse, and to reduce it to "a few people leading the Church astray" seems unserious.

Furthermore, it completely sidesteps the more fundamental question: what was the lapse and what was the correction - and how do you know? Apparently Victor's predecessors, over a period of centuries, might well have spoken of St. Augustine's reversal as a correction. St, Jerome agreed. Almost a millennium later St. Thomas Aquinas seemed to concur and, after 11 centuries, Pope Gregory XIV stood with Ausustine, Jerome, and Aquinas in correcting Pope Sixtus V efforts to 'lead the Church astray' on this issue.

Quite frankly, I can see no reason to view Church policy on this issue as any more inspired than a flip of a coin.

Sorry. I wasn't trying to be 'unserious', but as I knew nothing of this prior to your post it did seem to me that it was only a few people. I really can't say either way and am not particularly interested in making an issue over a belief once held but now abandoned by the RCC, no matter how long it lasted.

As I'm sure you know, we don't actually consider the RCC to be in the Church since the Schism of 1054. Of the figures you have mentioned, only Bl. Augustine and St. Jerome were pre-Schism and their beliefs on this matter were clearly not accepted by the whole Church. With respect to Augustine, this is not unusual - we accept very few of his teachings - but in any case, for an individual, even a Church Father, to have a belief not echoed by the concensus of the Church is not a big deal. All people, no matter how holy, are fallible.

As to the RCC considering Augustine's reversal a correction, you may well be right. This has often been the RC attitude to Augustine. When he argues differently to other Fathers, the others are considered to have erred - hence the fact that his opponent St. John Cassian is often viewed with suspicion and even called a heretic by RCs. However, from an Orthodox point of view, one Father contradicting the Patristic Consensus can never correct anything. If one disagrees with the concensus of the Church then one's belief is wrong and if the Church changes doctrine to suit this must necessarily be corruption rather than correction. Therefore I would consider the current RC position to be a correction of previous errors rather than the reverse.

James

 

[constantine]

The question on this thread was whether or not abortion was a sin, not whether or not abortion should be outlawed.

James

I'm sorry but that is obvious by now and I was moving on,
ofcourse abortion is a sin whether I believe it or not....
.If it isnt a sin to most people it easily becomes one when faced with the reality
of abortion ...because all life is precious..even a pregnant rape victim.
Everyone deserves the liberty to choose what they want to believe.....

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As to the RCC considering Augustine's reversal a correction, you may well be right. This has often been the RC attitude to Augustine. When he argues differently to other Fathers, the others are considered to have erred - hence the fact that his opponent St. John Cassian is often viewed with suspicion and even called a heretic by RCs. However, from an Orthodox point of view, one Father contradicting the Patristic Consensus can never correct anything. If one disagrees with the concensus of the Church then one's belief is wrong and if the Church changes doctrine to suit this must necessarily be corruption rather than correction. Therefore I would consider the current RC position to be a correction of previous errors rather than the reverse.

That was both interesting and helpful. Thanks.

 

[michel]

Is that a part of showing Christs' love? I guess so. :sarcastic

Yeah --- run to 'Christ's love' when babies are being aborted, right? Let Jesus tell us to back off, right? Well, my God is also a consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24; 9:3; Hebrews 12:29).

 

[James the Persian]

I'm sorry but that is obvious by now and I was moving on,
ofcourse abortion is a sin whether I believe it or not....
.If it isnt a sin to most people it easily becomes one when faced with the reality
of abortion ...because all life is precious..even a pregnant rape victim.
Everyone deserves the liberty to choose what they want to believe.....

I wouldn't disagree. I find abortion vile (and did before my conversion also) but I don't believe I have the right to force my morality on others. I do think that we are justified in expecting those who claim to adhere to the same morality (in my case Orthodox Christians) to actually do so, however. You'll certainly never find me cheering on the nutters who attack abortion clinics and the like, no matter how immoral I find the abortion practitioners to be.

James

 

[michel]

I wouldn't disagree. I find abortion vile (and did before my conversion also) but I don't believe I have the right to force my morality on others. I do think that we are justified in expecting those who claim to adhere to the same morality (in my case Orthodox Christians) to actually do so, however. You'll certainly never find me cheering on the nutters who attack abortion clinics and the like, no matter how immoral I find the abortion practitioners to be.

James

Then don't whine about the German Holocaust when an American Holocaust is going on right under your nose, and you're "not gonna force your [weak] morality on others".

 

[constantine]

Then don't whine about the German Holocaust when an American Holocaust is going on right under your nose, and you're "not gonna force your [weak] morality on others".

so your rights now includes force on others....
you know a creation is not a creation untill its created....

so what does one egg and a healthy sperm count have to do with it..or with you...
you see it all in black and white..

tax dollars spent on single teenage moms that will never provide a proper life for themselves and their children....
.the drug addict baby factories would be , in your opinion better than giving a young girl a second chance...

 

[michel]

That post (#53) was pretty sick, Constantine. I'll just bow out of conversing with you on this topic.

 

[James the Persian]

Then don't whine about the German Holocaust when an American Holocaust is going on right under your nose, and you're "not gonna force your [weak] morality on others".

Well, I believe that we should fight evils like abortion with love, not hatred. You clearly disagree, but I wonder which attitude is more Christian. Sometimes there is a need for righteous anger, undoubtedly, but most of the time love is the better weapon. Villifying the women who have abortions (who are in equal measures victim and perpetrator) will not help and violence merely begets more violence. And please don't lecture me on the Holocaust. My family suffered in it. Did yours?

James

 

[michel]

Well, I believe that we should fight evils like abortion with love, not hatred. You clearly disagree, but I wonder which attitude is more Christian. Sometimes there is a need for righteous anger, undoubtedly, but most of the time love is the better weapon. Villifying the women who have abortions (who are in equal measures victim and perpetrator) will not help and violence merely begets more violence. And please don't lecture me on the Holocaust. My family suffered in it. Did yours?

James

Which Holocaust don't you want a lecture on? The German one, or the American one that is currently 5 times worse? I wasn't around during the German one, but I did survive the American one.

Victims, huh? (My dander is starting to rise, so I shall bow out.)

In the meantime, YOU go ahead and claim "Christian love", I'll hold up a sign that says ABORTION IS MURDER.

 

[michel]

Well, I believe that we should fight evils like abortion with love, not hatred. You clearly disagree, but I wonder which attitude is more Christian. Sometimes there is a need for righteous anger, undoubtedly, but most of the time love is the better weapon. Villifying the women who have abortions (who are in equal measures victim and perpetrator) will not help and violence merely begets more violence. And please don't lecture me on the Holocaust. My family suffered in it. Did yours?

James

Thank you, James; I have just had to make the same comment on another thread. I am dreadfully sorry to hear your family suffered in the holocaust.

 

[constantine]

That post (#53) was pretty sick, Constantine. I'll just bow out of conversing with you on this topic.

sick? I dont think so , but true.......
there's no debate... you will believe

 

[michel]

Thank you, James; I have just had to make the same comment on another thread. I am dreadfully sorry to hear your family suffered in the holocaust.

Yes, and I too am sorry to hear that. My dad came home form Pearl Harbor in 1941 with shrapnel in his head that he suffered from until the day he died.

 

[James the Persian]

Which Holocaust don't you want a lecture on? The German one, or the American one that is currently 5 times worse? I wasn't around during the German one, but I did survive the American one.

As I'm not in the US and used a capital H, I would have thought it obvious I was referring WWII. As to whether the holocaust of abortion is worse than the Holocaust during WWII, I would have to disagree with you. Every life is precious and every death a unique tragedy. I find playing statistics with such things rather vile.

Victims, huh? (My dander is starting to rise, so I shall bow out.)

Do you actually know anyone who's had an abortion? Many of them are pretty scarred by the experience and when a society convinces them the procedure is morally fine and they go through with it only to find that it haunts them thereafter, I think it's safe to say those women are victims. It is society that needs to change, attacking individuals will solve nothing.

In the meantime, YOU go ahead and claim "Christian love", I'll hold up a sign that says ABORTION IS MURDER.

You stand around chanting and frightening poor women with your sign, then. I'd rather try and explain to them, with love, why abortion is murder and offer to help them avoid it than rub their noses in it as you seem to wish to do.

James

 

[michel]

As to whether the holocaust of abortion is worse than the Holocaust during WWII, I would have to disagree with you.

Yeah --- you gotta point there --- some survived the German Holocaust, so Hitler did a sloppy job, didn't he? At least the abortion doctors are getting it done right (and sooner). Well, D-Day for America is coming soon.

Every life is precious and every death a unique tragedy.

Wow ... I can't believe you can say that ... but you're entitled to.

I find playing statistics with such things rather vile.

Yup ... 6 million Jews vs 30 million Americans ... just playing numbers.

Do you actually know anyone who's had an abortion?

No.

Many of them are pretty scarred by the experience and when a society convinces them the procedure is morally fine and they go through with it only to find that it haunts them thereafter, I think it's safe to say those women are victims. It is society that needs to change, attacking individuals will solve nothing.

At least they're still alive to be haunted! God, in His grace and love will forgive them, and I should, too, if they really repent.

You stand around chanting and frightening poor women with your sign, then. I'd rather try and explain to them, with love, why abortion is murder and offer to help them avoid it than rub their noses in it as you seem to wish to do.

Well it looks like neither is working doesn't it? So we'll just have to leave it up to Someone with more authority and firepower to settle it once and for all, won't we?

I'll leave you with this question, James, that I challenge you to answer:

Where is the most dangerous place in America to be right now?