Abortion

[Cephus]

And ISIS has their opinions, and the KKK has theirs, yada yada...
It's perfectly fine, according to you people.
Tom

And they do. But a lot more people have opinions that disagree, that's why they get opposed. That's why social norms are determined by society collectively. The majority rules.

 

[columbus]

And they do. But a lot more people have opinions that disagree, that's why they get opposed. That's why social norms are determined by society collectively. The majority rules.

The KKK and Nazis were very popular, in the day.
That's why society, collectively, ruled.
Tom

 

[Cephus]

The KKK and Nazis were very popular, in the day.
That's why society, collectively, ruled.
Tom

Yes they were. They are no longer. Social morals changed. Today they are socially unacceptable. Who knows what the future will bring.

 

[columbus]

Yes they were. They are no longer. Social morals changed. Today they are socially unacceptable. Who knows what the future will bring.

Social pressure brought to bear on the sexually irresponsible like it is on racial bigots.
Tom

 

[Cephus]

Social pressure brought to bear on the sexually irresponsible like it is on racial bigots.
Tom

You'd like to think so but history shows it doesn't always work that way. Every generation is sure they have it all figured out, but the next generation proves otherwise. We're not moving toward a perfect world, we're just moving. Tomorrow, we'll move somewhere else.

 

[columbus]

You'd like to think so but history shows it doesn't always work that way. Every generation is sure they have it all figured out, but the next generation proves otherwise. We're not moving toward a perfect world, we're just moving. Tomorrow, we'll move somewhere else.

What makes you think that the current generation is any different?
Tom

 

[Smart_Guy]

Why?
Why four months?

Nothing personal, but I don't believe anything just because some religious people claim that it is true.

I understand that some people put great stock in their religious beliefs. I'm ok with that, until they try to impose them on those of us who do not find them particularly convincing. So you believe RvW is a moral law, because Islam teaches the same thing.
I don't.
Tom

Not sure, it is just one of the views, as I said, that I thought I'd share here. There is a hadeeth about it, but that's another subject.

I completely understand your feelings really. You know I'm completely fine with any views and opinions, so I welcome anything you say even getting personal with me . I don't see a problem in not believing what you don't and I completely respect that. I think I also said that I'm not imposing them on anyone?

I'm actually eager for any scientific discovery of knowing when the soul gets in. Please note that I'm only talking about the soul here. I consider the baby always a living human being once pregnancy happens.

That is a human being, according to science, that you are referring to.
Tom

I'm perfectly aware of that. I should have said "growing human being" instead. Sorry about that.

Say, I'm not following this thread well, so I'd like to know of what you think of abortion, if you don't mind. I just want to know it, no debate, I promise.

 

[JoStories]

Wow, you and your daughter both have had more than your share of tragedy! I hope neither of you will ever have to suffer any such offense again.

And since you have already taken the first step by acknowledging that your grandfather's crime against you was due to a sick mind, maybe some day you really will forgive him. I hope so, not for his sake, but for yours. No one has ever done anything to me as intensely disgusting as what he did to you, so I could only guess how difficult it would be. I do know that forgiveness is beneficial to the person who forgives, both in the spiritual sense and in the practical effect of eliminating a burden.

I disagree Forever. Forgiveness is not required to move beyond something like this. I have found peace in what was done to me. I find it difficult to acknowledge that with my daughter as due to the ridiculous criminal law system we have, the SOB who raped my daughter only got 2 years in prison. And he raped another child as soon as he was released. Now, he lives in my own town. I find that difficult. IMO, forgiveness is not something that is necessary for someone who commits this kind of an act on children. 99% of the time, I am against the death penalty but in the case of repeat sexual offenders involving children as young as I was or my daughter, I am all for it.

 

[JoStories]

You're pretty good at the BS yourself. Commentary, but no argument. Put some substance in it and disprove what you don't believe.

Cephus has a good point forever. There is no empirical evidence of a Divine being. I believe in God but will always freely admit that that is my belief and that I cannot prove it. It is only fair to acknowledge the truth of that. I understand that you find what you consider empirical evidence but if it truly were proven empirical evidence, the entire world would be deists. And they are not.

 

[Smart_Guy]

... the SOB who ************ only got 2 years in prison. And he ****** another child as soon as he was released.

That's a message to the "no death penalty" advocates. He must be executed before doing it a third time, or even because of the two previous grave crimes. Sorry for editing some words out.

 

[Cephus]

What makes you think that the current generation is any different?
Tom

I don't. We assume today that we have it all figured out and in a generation, they'll look back and consider us a bunch of unmitigated savages. That's what I keep saying and you keep disagreeing.

 

[columbus]

I don't. We assume today that we have it all figured out and in a generation, they'll look back and consider us a bunch of unmitigated savages. That's what I keep saying and you keep disagreeing.

Apparently we are misunderstanding each other.
I see the slow and halting progress toward a more moral world. Science and rationality has helped some.
The current generation generally doesn't think that unborn babies have rights. Previous generations didn't think women did. Or black people. Or gay people. Or indigenous people....
The list of human beings who were not considered "persons", here in the USA, is quite long. If you are not a person, of course you don't have any rights at all. You can even be killed and it is not murder, because it is not illegal.

The world grinds slowly towards a more rational morality. Future generations will see current mothers offing their progeny the way modern people see slavers. Inexplicably immoral.
Tom

 

[Cephus]

Apparently we are misunderstanding each other.
I see the slow and halting progress toward a more moral world. Science and rationality has helped some.
The current generation generally doesn't think that unborn babies have rights. Previous generations didn't think women did. Or black people. Or gay people. Or indigenous people....
The list of human beings who were not considered "persons", here in the USA, is quite long. If you are not a person, of course you don't have any rights at all. You can even be killed and it is not murder, because it is not illegal.

The world grinds slowly towards a more rational morality. Future generations will see current mothers offing their progeny the way modern people see slavers. Inexplicably immoral.
Tom

I don't think that morality has the slightest thing to do with it. What we view as moral today will be viewed as immoral tomorrow. Things don't move toward perfection, things just move. There is no perfection. There is only change.

 

[columbus]

I don't think that morality has the slightest thing to do with it.

What does morality have to do with?
To which "it" are you referring?
Tom

 

[Cephus]

What does morality have to do with?
To which "it" are you referring?
Tom

We already agree that morality and the law have nothing to do with each other. The recent Supreme Court decision on gay marriage has nothing to do with morality, but with equality under the law. Morality is entirely irrelevant.

 

[columbus]

I'm actually eager for any scientific discovery of knowing when the soul gets in. Please note that I'm only talking about the soul here. I consider the baby always a living

Souls got in whenever stuff became alive, if they exist. Living things have them. They don't "get" them.

Science, at this stage, is not going to help. Because nobody knows what a soul is, despite people often talking like they do.
Tom

 

[Sees]

@Cephus Law has everything to do with morality and ethics.

 

[columbus]

We already agree that morality and the law have nothing to do with each other.

We do not agree on this.

Law is a subset of morality. It is the part of morality that we write down, argue about, and enforce(sometimes. Sort of). Law is the part of morality that gets written down.

Law is quite subjective. It changes based on the opinions of the humans who have power. Morality is objective, it is a code of behavior based on the premise that what is good for us is good for all of us. We can disagree about what is the best for everyone, but if you want or do things that aren't good for everyone you are behaving in an immoral fashion. Your ideological beliefs don't change your immorality.
Tom

 

[Cephus]

We do not agree on this.

Law is a subset of morality. It is the part of morality that we write down, argue about, and enforce(sometimes. Sort of). Law is the part of morality that gets written down.

Law is quite subjective. It changes based on the opinions of the humans who have power. Morality is objective, it is a code of behavior based on the premise that what is good for us is good for all of us. We can disagree about what is the best for everyone, but if you want or do things that aren't good for everyone you are behaving in an immoral fashion. Your ideological beliefs don't change your immorality.
Tom

So that wasn't you back in post #1838 that said:

I agree that the law has little to with morality.

 

[columbus]

So that wasn't you back in post #1838 that said:

Oh yes, that was me. Thank you for pointing out, so clearly, how poor the language and logic skills of abortionists are.
I said ,"has little to do" and "is a subset". You can not distinguish them from "have nothing to do with".
Rather like the abortionists who insist that the baby is not alive until s/he takes a breath. Or that some ancient text will tell you when a human being gets a soul. Or whatever.

Do you understand that you are wrong? That I didn't say what you attributed to me?
Tom