Abortion

[an anarchist]

Touchy topic, I know.

I am making this thread because I would like pro-choicers to help me better understand the pro-choice position.

Progressive society says abortion is ok. I am against abortion. What I mean is I don't think it is a good thing. But I am open to understand why progressive society as well as many people in my life are okay with it. I struggle to fathom it.

@Quintessence said in another thread "forced birth is disgusting no matter how you slice it" and I guess that makes sense. The one thing I am SO GLAD I will never under any circumstances experience is birth. If I was female, I STILL wouldn't give birth. Screw that, I'm not getting torn apart. Birth is absolutely terrifying and the only reason it isn't relatively fatal is because modern technology.

Anyways, can you guys offer me your perspectives on what makes abortion acceptable?

My perspective is that I wouldn't strangle a baby, nor advocate for it. So why would I advocate for abortion?

But I realize now that there is much more nuance to it.

Yet I defy the assertion that it is not human life. If you are going to participate in a conversation on this thread here with me, justify the murder of the unborn human, but do not deny that it is an unborn human. I won't have it in this thread. Help me understand what makes it right to kill those yet born without dehumanizing the victims.

Spoiler: My abortion

I was married to a girl once. Pregnant we got. Schizophrenic I am. Unstable and unmedicated at the time I was. Wife didn't want "her kid coming out like me" (a valid fear of genetically passing on schizo) as well as she didn't want to be stuck with me in her life because of a kid. So she got rid of it despite all of my crying and pleading. Took me years to be even cordial with her again. But I support her decision now. She did what was best for her.

Most distraught I ever was. Years later I still mourn the death of my child. Yet people in my life don't understand. Coworkers congratulated me on the abortion. Therapist was baffled I was sad about it, as it was a "fetus". Friends told me I shouldn't feel bad for I never had a child.

How dare this society take away my right to mourn.

I have accepted that abortion is ok. Not because I think it is ok, but society has told me it is ok. And I am tired of hating society.

I just don't understand why. Why shouldn't I mourn the death of my child? And why is abortion ok?/SPOILER]

 

[GoodAttention]

Touchy topic, I know.

I am making this thread because I would like pro-choicers to help me better understand the pro-choice position.

Progressive society says abortion is ok. I am against abortion. What I mean is I don't think it is a good thing. But I am open to understand why progressive society as well as many people in my life are okay with it. I struggle to fathom it.

@Quintessence said in another thread "forced birth is disgusting no matter how you slice it" and I guess that makes sense. The one thing I am SO GLAD I will never under any circumstances experience is birth. If I was female, I STILL wouldn't give birth. Screw that, I'm not getting torn apart. Birth is absolutely terrifying and the only reason it isn't relatively fatal is because modern technology.

Anyways, can you guys offer me your perspectives on what makes abortion acceptable?

My perspective is that I wouldn't strangle a baby, nor advocate for it. So why would I advocate for abortion?

But I realize now that there is much more nuance to it.

Yet I defy the assertion that it is not human life. If you are going to participate in a conversation on this thread here with me, justify the murder of the unborn human, but do not deny that it is an unborn human. I won't have it in this thread. Help me understand what makes it right to kill those yet born without dehumanizing the victims.

Spoiler: My abortion

I was married to a girl once. Pregnant we got. Schizophrenic I am. Unstable and unmedicated at the time I was. Wife didn't want "her kid coming out like me" (a valid fear of genetically passing on schizo) as well as she didn't want to be stuck with me in her life because of a kid. So she got rid of it despite all of my crying and pleading. Took me years to be even cordial with her again. But I support her decision now. She did what was best for her.

Most distraught I ever was. Years later I still mourn the death of my child. Yet people in my life don't understand. Coworkers congratulated me on the abortion. Therapist was baffled I was sad about it, as it was a "fetus". Friends told me I shouldn't feel bad for I never had a child.

How dare this society take away my right to mourn.

Spoiler: My abortion

I have accepted that abortion is ok. Not because I think it is ok, but society has told me it is ok. And I am tired of hating society.

I just don't understand why. Why shouldn't I mourn the death of my child? And why is abortion ok?/SPOILER]

You should mourn, as it is a deep loss to miss a child that you will never meet. It is more painful than meeting a person that you love deeply, but cannot be with, or loving a person deeply that passes away.

If society agrees that a woman has the right to consider her wants and needs regarding her own body, then abortion should be legal. Society should also takes medical opinon into consideration, including differentiating an embryo from a fetus, and fetal viability, to draw a line.

Ultimately abortion is only "ok" because modern medicine has given us the ability to have control over pregnancy itself. It is the same modern medicine that has reduced the risk of death for people worldwide, so fortunately or unfortunately, this is the world we live in. The thorn that is the rose.

I also agree that, in the US, the states should decide what is legal or not. If Texans want to make abortion illegal, then society there has spoken.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Argentbear]

Touchy topic, I know.

I am making this thread because I would like pro-choicers to help me better understand the pro-choice position.

Progressive society says abortion is ok.

NO progressives and liberals hold that medical decisions are private matters for the person and their care provider to make decisions about and not subject to public opinion or politics.

Anyways, can you guys offer me your perspectives on what makes abortion acceptable?

My perspective is that I wouldn't strangle a baby, nor advocate for it. So why would I advocate for abortion?

But I realize now that there is much more nuance to it.

Yet I defy the assertion that it is not human life. If you are going to participate in a conversation on this thread here with me, justify the murder of the unborn human, but do not deny that it is an unborn human. I won't have it in this thread. Help me understand what makes it right to kill those yet born without dehumanizing the victims.

is this a human being?

 

[GoodAttention]

NO progressives and liberals hold that medical decisions are private matters for the person and their care provider to make decisions about and not subject to public opinion or politics.

is this a human being?

That's not even a blastocyst.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Touchy topic, I know.

I am making this thread because I would like pro-choicers to help me better understand the pro-choice position.

Progressive society says abortion is ok. I am against abortion. What I mean is I don't think it is a good thing. But I am open to understand why progressive society as well as many people in my life are okay with it. I struggle to fathom it.

@Quintessence said in another thread "forced birth is disgusting no matter how you slice it" and I guess that makes sense. The one thing I am SO GLAD I will never under any circumstances experience is birth. If I was female, I STILL wouldn't give birth. Screw that, I'm not getting torn apart. Birth is absolutely terrifying and the only reason it isn't relatively fatal is because modern technology.

Anyways, can you guys offer me your perspectives on what makes abortion acceptable?

My perspective is that I wouldn't strangle a baby, nor advocate for it. So why would I advocate for abortion?

But I realize now that there is much more nuance to it.

Yet I defy the assertion that it is not human life. If you are going to participate in a conversation on this thread here with me, justify the murder of the unborn human, but do not deny that it is an unborn human. I won't have it in this thread. Help me understand what makes it right to kill those yet born without dehumanizing the victims.

Spoiler: My abortion

I was married to a girl once. Pregnant we got. Schizophrenic I am. Unstable and unmedicated at the time I was. Wife didn't want "her kid coming out like me" (a valid fear of genetically passing on schizo) as well as she didn't want to be stuck with me in her life because of a kid. So she got rid of it despite all of my crying and pleading. Took me years to be even cordial with her again. But I support her decision now. She did what was best for her.

Most distraught I ever was. Years later I still mourn the death of my child. Yet people in my life don't understand. Coworkers congratulated me on the abortion. Therapist was baffled I was sad about it, as it was a "fetus". Friends told me I shouldn't feel bad for I never had a child.

How dare this society take away my right to mourn.

I have accepted that abortion is ok. Not because I think it is ok, but society has told me it is ok. And I am tired of hating society.

I just don't understand why. Why shouldn't I mourn the death of my child? And why is abortion ok?/SPOILER]

What do you mean by "acceptable"?

The pro-choice/anti-choice debate isn't about what you or I find personally acceptable; it's about what we're willing or not to impose on others.

"I hate abortion but I'd never tell someone else what to do with their body" is a pro-choice position.

As for why be pro-choice, for me the bodily autonomy argument is the most compelling one.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Spoiler: My abortion

I was married to a girl once. Pregnant we got. Schizophrenic I am. Unstable and unmedicated at the time I was. Wife didn't want "her kid coming out like me" (a valid fear of genetically passing on schizo) as well as she didn't want to be stuck with me in her life because of a kid. So she got rid of it despite all of my crying and pleading. Took me years to be even cordial with her again. But I support her decision now. She did what was best for her.

Most distraught I ever was. Years later I still mourn the death of my child. Yet people in my life don't understand. Coworkers congratulated me on the abortion. Therapist was baffled I was sad about it, as it was a "fetus". Friends told me I shouldn't feel bad for I never had a child.

How dare this society take away my right to mourn.

I have accepted that abortion is ok. Not because I think it is ok, but society has told me it is ok. And I am tired of hating society.

I just don't understand why. Why shouldn't I mourn the death of my child? And why is abortion ok?

You put your story in spoiler tags, so I'll do that with my related story:

Spoiler

My ex is Catholic. Her whole family was also very Catholic and anti-choice.

When we were married, we tried for kids, but it wasn't successful. She had a series of miscarriages. None of the pregnancies got to 2 full months.

She shared the news of her miscarriages with a few family members and the priest at her church. Not one of them responded in a way that would be in keeping with a reaction to news of the death of a baby. Nothing about their reactions suggested that grief would be appropriate for her.

In the midst of this, we went to a fertility specialist. The clinic was affiliated with a Catholic hospital, so we had to acknowledge up front that any treatments that are incompatible with a "pro-life" position - e.g. IVF - were off the table.

... but the course of action that ended up getting recommended to us was completely compatible with the hospital's "pro-life" rules. Do you know what they had us do?

Try again. Try again with various monitoring approaches, but try again with the expectation that another miscarriage would happen, but this time the doctor would have useful data. And then after that, we were to tweak our approach - generally with different hormone treatments - and then try again, once more with the expectation of another miscarriage, but at least further along. The process would repeat until we got a pregnancy to get to full term.

If someone actually believed that an embryo or fetus was a real child, this approach would be psychopathic.

... so don't think that it's only pro-choicers who don't treat a fetus like a child.

[/spoilers]

 

[an anarchist]

As for why be pro-choice, for me the bodily autonomy argument is the most compelling one

Can you elaborate on this? Does this reasoning require the dehumanization of the unborn child?

Is it like the trolley problem?

I'd say the unborn person has bodily autonomy too. Snuffing out it's life is violating its autonomy.

I don't see how logic used in the bodily autonomy argument would not be able to be used for newborns.

Why does a mother have to breastfeed her newborn? Thanks to bodily autonomy, she can just leave her baby be and starve, right?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Touchy topic, I know.

I am making this thread because I would like pro-choicers to help me better understand the pro-choice position.

Progressive society says abortion is ok. I am against abortion. What I mean is I don't think it is a good thing. But I am open to understand why progressive society as well as many people in my life are okay with it. I struggle to fathom it.

@Quintessence said in another thread "forced birth is disgusting no matter how you slice it" and I guess that makes sense. The one thing I am SO GLAD I will never under any circumstances experience is birth. If I was female, I STILL wouldn't give birth. Screw that, I'm not getting torn apart. Birth is absolutely terrifying and the only reason it isn't relatively fatal is because modern technology.

Anyways, can you guys offer me your perspectives on what makes abortion acceptable?

My perspective is that I wouldn't strangle a baby, nor advocate for it. So why would I advocate for abortion?

But I realize now that there is much more nuance to it.

Yet I defy the assertion that it is not human life. If you are going to participate in a conversation on this thread here with me, justify the murder of the unborn human, but do not deny that it is an unborn human. I won't have it in this thread. Help me understand what makes it right to kill those yet born without dehumanizing the victims.

Spoiler: My abortion

I was married to a girl once. Pregnant we got. Schizophrenic I am. Unstable and unmedicated at the time I was. Wife didn't want "her kid coming out like me" (a valid fear of genetically passing on schizo) as well as she didn't want to be stuck with me in her life because of a kid. So she got rid of it despite all of my crying and pleading. Took me years to be even cordial with her again. But I support her decision now. She did what was best for her.

Most distraught I ever was. Years later I still mourn the death of my child. Yet people in my life don't understand. Coworkers congratulated me on the abortion. Therapist was baffled I was sad about it, as it was a "fetus". Friends told me I shouldn't feel bad for I never had a child.

How dare this society take away my right to mourn.

I have accepted that abortion is ok. Not because I think it is ok, but society has told me it is ok. And I am tired of hating society.

I just don't understand why. Why shouldn't I mourn the death of my child? And why is abortion ok?/SPOILER]

Here it is.
It is a potentially born baby and an unborn human with only the potential to become a born living human.
So I don't deny that it is an unborn human. It is the difference between potential and actual that is difference.
If you agree on that, there is even more to explore.

 

[an anarchist]

Here it is.
It is a potentially born baby and an unborn human with only the potential to become a born living human.
So I don't deny that it is an unborn human. It is the difference between potential and actual that is difference.
If you agree on that, there is even more to explore.

I agree that the child is unborn, yes.

How valuable is life itself? How far should we go to safeguard it? Everyone agrees we should protect born babies.

I guess we all celebrate the day we are born, not the day we are conceived. What I'm saying is I wonder why we do not value the unborn. When you say "difference between potential and actual" it sounds like you are contradicting yourself earlier when you say you don't deny it is human.

The significance seems to be the human having already been "born". What is significant about one going through the birth process that safeguards their life from being ended? And why is their life not safeguarded before they are born?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I agree that the child is unborn, yes.

How valuable is life itself? How far should we go to safeguard it? Everyone agrees we should protect born babies.
...

Well, life has no value itself. Rather we assign value.

Do you agree that the unborn child is only a potential born human.

 

[ChristineM]

Touchy topic, I know.

I am making this thread because I would like pro-choicers to help me better understand the pro-choice position.

Progressive society says abortion is ok. I am against abortion. What I mean is I don't think it is a good thing. But I am open to understand why progressive society as well as many people in my life are okay with it. I struggle to fathom it.

@Quintessence said in another thread "forced birth is disgusting no matter how you slice it" and I guess that makes sense. The one thing I am SO GLAD I will never under any circumstances experience is birth. If I was female, I STILL wouldn't give birth. Screw that, I'm not getting torn apart. Birth is absolutely terrifying and the only reason it isn't relatively fatal is because modern technology.

Anyways, can you guys offer me your perspectives on what makes abortion acceptable?

My perspective is that I wouldn't strangle a baby, nor advocate for it. So why would I advocate for abortion?

But I realize now that there is much more nuance to it.

Yet I defy the assertion that it is not human life. If you are going to participate in a conversation on this thread here with me, justify the murder of the unborn human, but do not deny that it is an unborn human. I won't have it in this thread. Help me understand what makes it right to kill those yet born without dehumanizing the victims.

Spoiler: My abortion

I was married to a girl once. Pregnant we got. Schizophrenic I am. Unstable and unmedicated at the time I was. Wife didn't want "her kid coming out like me" (a valid fear of genetically passing on schizo) as well as she didn't want to be stuck with me in her life because of a kid. So she got rid of it despite all of my crying and pleading. Took me years to be even cordial with her again. But I support her decision now. She did what was best for her.

Most distraught I ever was. Years later I still mourn the death of my child. Yet people in my life don't understand. Coworkers congratulated me on the abortion. Therapist was baffled I was sad about it, as it was a "fetus". Friends told me I shouldn't feel bad for I never had a child.

How dare this society take away my right to mourn.

I have accepted that abortion is ok. Not because I think it is ok, but society has told me it is ok. And I am tired of hating society.

I just don't understand why. Why shouldn't I mourn the death of my child? And why is abortion ok?/SPOILER]

Simply a matter of personal choice. Shure, in the case of abortion that choice is very difficult, do you allow the foetus to mature or do you abort.

In the case of health complications / danger to either the mother or feotus the choice is an easy one. In the case of rape the choice is an easy one*. Other causes may also tilt your choice one way or another.

My point is, it is the choice of the mother (with input from the father if possible) to decide what to do with her own body, it is not the decision of politics or religion.

* My youngest child came about by unconsential sex, rape. I personally would not have an abortion but i will defend any women who wishes to make her own choice.

 

[Aupmanyav]

We have a 'medical termination of pregnancy law' and accept the right of women to abort (conditionally). The court has to permit it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Can you elaborate on this? Does this reasoning require the dehumanization of the unborn child?

Is it like the trolley problem?

It's like organ donation. We don't force people to donate their organs, no matter how many lives it saves.

This doesn't have to involve dehumanizing the fetus. It only means that I as a second-trimester fetus would have been no more entitled to the use of my mother's body than I am now as a 47-year-old man.

If I need a kidney or bone marrow and my Mom says "no," that's it. I have no recourse, no matter how certain it is that I'll die without it an no matter what my mother's reason is. Same when she was pregnant with me.

The dehumanization that happens in the abortion issue is by the anti-choicers toward pregnant people. By denying them the rights we even grant to corpses, they signal that they aren't entitled to the rights that go along with being a person.

I'd say the unborn person has bodily autonomy too. Snuffing out it's life is violating its autonomy.

The right to bodily autonomy supersedes the right to life. We see this all across the board on other issues.

I don't see how logic used in the bodily autonomy argument would not be able to be used for newborns

A newborn also has the right to bodily autonomy. For instance, we don't do surgery on babies without consent (from the parents, acting in their role as stewards of the baby).

Why does a mother have to breastfeed her newborn? Thanks to bodily autonomy, she can just leave her baby be and starve, right?

The requirement to keep one's baby fed doesn't require bodily autonomy to be violated.

Certainly, breastfeeding is the option that many parents choose, but there's no legal repercussion for choosing formula instead.

And we wouldn't force the mother of a newborn to donate blood - for instance - to her baby against her will, even if the baby would surely die without it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Progressive society says abortion is ok. I am against abortion.

Nonsense. Progressive society says that it is the woman's decision while you hold any damn view you wish.

 

[Tamino]

Anyways, can you guys offer me your perspectives on what makes abortion acceptable?

My perspective is that I wouldn't strangle a baby, nor advocate for it. So why would I advocate for abortion?

First: bodily autonomy and individual freedom.
Would you force any random person to donate a kidney without their consent? No?
Then you should not force a woman to risk her life and health for the baby she might have.

Second: nature.

Yet I defy the assertion that it is not human life. If you are going to participate in a conversation on this thread here with me, justify the murder of the unborn human, but do not deny that it is an unborn human. I won't have it in this thread. Help me understand what makes it right to kill those yet born without dehumanizing the victims.

Have you taken a look around? Nature ist chock full of wasted potential. It's brutal and tragic and cruel and also a very basic fact of life.
A fertile female human is born with millions of eggs already formed in her womb. Each oft those carries the potential to be a new, unique human. They keep dying off all her life, though. she has only above 500 000 left a puberty and the numbers keep dropping.
Even if you ignore the potential human life housed in all these eggs... when an egg is fertilized, there's still a significant chance of an early miscarriage, before the pregnancy is even discovered. Boom. Baby dead. Potential wasted. ... But no one even noticed.

So, potential is one thing, the fact of being an unborn human and having the potential to be an independent human person... that is important, but it also impossible. Not every egg can be fertilized, not every embryo can survive, not even every offspring born or hatched can reach adulthood - there's no surer way to kill all life than to eradicate death.

There is no clear line and no easy answer. A fertilized egg has the full genetic makeup and potential to be a human... But it's not a baby yet, and the process of transforming it into a living, thinking, feeling human is very much gradual.
It's a miraculous process, and it's precious exactly because it can fail so easily. Experiencing miscarriage can be very traumatizing to someone who wanted to give birth.
And similarly, intentional abortion is never an easy decision , nor is it morally black-and-white.

Yes, it's an intentional killing of what might be a human individual. And that is exactly why I am very much pro-choice: the person whose body houses that unborn, potential child is the only one who has a right to decide. Because it's HER BODY that's doing all the work to grow it. And HER LIFE and future to be weighed against the potential life within her.
And remember that it's not only a right but also a terrible responsibility. The person having the abortion is the one most affected.

So we, as a society, should try to help and support as best we can: first of all, we can prevent it from coming up in the first place by providing sex education and free options of contraception and family planning. Then, as a society, we can offer alternatives - such as easy ways of fostering or adoption, and help with finances and care, in case that is the issue.
And lastly, by respecting the decision and supporting any choice that the pregnant person decides on.

 

[GoodAttention]

Can you elaborate on this? Does this reasoning require the dehumanization of the unborn child?

Is it like the trolley problem?

I'd say the unborn person has bodily autonomy too. Snuffing out it's life is violating its autonomy.

I don't see how logic used in the bodily autonomy argument would not be able to be used for newborns.

Why does a mother have to breastfeed her newborn? Thanks to bodily autonomy, she can just leave her baby be and starve, right?

A person only has rights once they have a birth certificate (or eligible to have one). All newborns would have rights against abuse and neglect.

An unborn person doesn't have rights, hence why any law against abortion holds the mother, and others including medical practitioners, liable.

 

[Koldo]

Nonsense. Progressive society says that it is the woman's decision while you hold any damn view you wish.

It is only treated as being strictly a matter of the woman's decision if and only if abortion is held as socially acceptable (which is what he mean by abortion being ok to a progressive society) by a significant part of the society.

 

[an anarchist]

Well, life has no value itself. Rather we assign value.

I can understand this.

Do you agree that the unborn child is only a potential born human.

Yee

 

[Koldo]

A person only has rights once they have a birth certificate (or eligible to have one). All newborns would have rights against abuse and neglect.

An unborn person doesn't have rights, hence why any law against abortion holds the mother, and others including medical practitioners, liable.

That's just out of social convention though. Nothing prevents granting legal rights to the unborn.

 

[GoodAttention]

That's just out of social convention though. Nothing prevents granting legal rights to the unborn.

What rights would you grant them?