Abortion

[mikkel_the_dane]

This paragraph doesn't clarify it for me. What "2" worlds?

The world where all humans have all the relevant sex to have as many children as potential versus a world, where it doesn't happen.

 

[bobhikes]

Touchy topic, I know.

I am making this thread because I would like pro-choicers to help me better understand the pro-choice position.

For me it's all about the quality of life of the Children. People that want abortions are not going to give the child the best or even good life. Yes, I know there are exceptions but for 1%, I will side with the 99%. Now if society decided to make kids a priority and guaranty a high quality of life for all children through the age of 16 then I would be all about banning abortions. Children did not have a decision in being made they should not be penalized by parents that don't want them or can't take care of them.

 

[Argentbear]

NO progressives and liberals hold that medical decisions are private matters for the person and their care provider to make decisions about and not subject to public opinion or politics.

is this a human being?

it is actually it's is just dyed.

 

[Argentbear]

I disagree

Why? If you position is that a fetus is valued because it has the potential to be born and be a human being and a fertilized egg is valued as a potential fetus then why not an individual sperm?

 

[GoodAttention]

The only time I have ever heard the claim that a zygote or a blastocyst or a fetus is not human is from pro-lifers creating a strawman.

If it was a human it would have rights.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Touchy topic, I know.

I am making this thread because I would like pro-choicers to help me better understand the pro-choice position.

Progressive society says abortion is ok. I am against abortion. What I mean is I don't think it is a good thing. But I am open to understand why progressive society as well as many people in my life are okay with it. I struggle to fathom it.

@Quintessence said in another thread "forced birth is disgusting no matter how you slice it" and I guess that makes sense. The one thing I am SO GLAD I will never under any circumstances experience is birth. If I was female, I STILL wouldn't give birth. Screw that, I'm not getting torn apart. Birth is absolutely terrifying and the only reason it isn't relatively fatal is because modern technology.

Anyways, can you guys offer me your perspectives on what makes abortion acceptable?

My perspective is that I wouldn't strangle a baby, nor advocate for it. So why would I advocate for abortion?

But I realize now that there is much more nuance to it.

Yet I defy the assertion that it is not human life. If you are going to participate in a conversation on this thread here with me, justify the murder of the unborn human, but do not deny that it is an unborn human. I won't have it in this thread. Help me understand what makes it right to kill those yet born without dehumanizing the victims.

Spoiler: My abortion

I was married to a girl once. Pregnant we got. Schizophrenic I am. Unstable and unmedicated at the time I was. Wife didn't want "her kid coming out like me" (a valid fear of genetically passing on schizo) as well as she didn't want to be stuck with me in her life because of a kid. So she got rid of it despite all of my crying and pleading. Took me years to be even cordial with her again. But I support her decision now. She did what was best for her.

Most distraught I ever was. Years later I still mourn the death of my child. Yet people in my life don't understand. Coworkers congratulated me on the abortion. Therapist was baffled I was sad about it, as it was a "fetus". Friends told me I shouldn't feel bad for I never had a child.

How dare this society take away my right to mourn.

I have accepted that abortion is ok. Not because I think it is ok, but society has told me it is ok. And I am tired of hating society.

I just don't understand why. Why shouldn't I mourn the death of my child? And why is abortion ok?/SPOILER]

I'm so sorry that happened to you. You have every right to mourn your child. I view aborting a baby over fears of mental illness or things like Down's Syndrome (which doesn't cause suffering and many of them grow up to be happy and healthy, and can even be independent to a large extent) as nothing more than eugenics and declaring that certain human beings don't have a right to exist, which is morally depraved. After all, we're both those kinds of people. I believe we have a right to be here. I have my own mental health issues and my oldest sister has schizophrenia. One of my best friends in life has schizophrenia. I couldn't imagine her not being here.

 

[Altfish]

Touchy topic, I know.

I am making this thread because I would like pro-choicers to help me better understand the pro-choice position.

Progressive society says abortion is ok. I am against abortion. What I mean is I don't think it is a good thing. But I am open to understand why progressive society as well as many people in my life are okay with it. I struggle to fathom it.

@Quintessence said in another thread "forced birth is disgusting no matter how you slice it" and I guess that makes sense. The one thing I am SO GLAD I will never under any circumstances experience is birth. If I was female, I STILL wouldn't give birth. Screw that, I'm not getting torn apart. Birth is absolutely terrifying and the only reason it isn't relatively fatal is because modern technology.

Anyways, can you guys offer me your perspectives on what makes abortion acceptable?

My perspective is that I wouldn't strangle a baby, nor advocate for it. So why would I advocate for abortion?

But I realize now that there is much more nuance to it.

Yet I defy the assertion that it is not human life. If you are going to participate in a conversation on this thread here with me, justify the murder of the unborn human, but do not deny that it is an unborn human. I won't have it in this thread. Help me understand what makes it right to kill those yet born without dehumanizing the victims.

Spoiler: My abortion

I was married to a girl once. Pregnant we got. Schizophrenic I am. Unstable and unmedicated at the time I was. Wife didn't want "her kid coming out like me" (a valid fear of genetically passing on schizo) as well as she didn't want to be stuck with me in her life because of a kid. So she got rid of it despite all of my crying and pleading. Took me years to be even cordial with her again. But I support her decision now. She did what was best for her.

Most distraught I ever was. Years later I still mourn the death of my child. Yet people in my life don't understand. Coworkers congratulated me on the abortion. Therapist was baffled I was sad about it, as it was a "fetus". Friends told me I shouldn't feel bad for I never had a child.

How dare this society take away my right to mourn.

I have accepted that abortion is ok. Not because I think it is ok, but society has told me it is ok. And I am tired of hating society.

I just don't understand why. Why shouldn't I mourn the death of my child? And why is abortion ok?/SPOILER]

I said it many times before, but it looks like I'll have to repeat myself again.

I am pro-choice BUT I am not pro-abortion.
I am for choice, and the option for an abortion must remain if all other options have been explored.
Abortion should only happen after full consultation with medical experts (and others), it should not be an easy option.

It should be banned after 9-months (as described by Trump) and renamed, Murder.

 

[Pawpatrol]

Why does a mother have to breastfeed her newborn? Thanks to bodily autonomy, she can just leave her baby be and starve, right?

There's a new trend on social media. "I don't breastfeed because I don't want to."

Some women are so selfish they refrain from giving their children what's best for them because it's a bit beyond their comfort zone.

 

[Pawpatrol]

Nonsense. Progressive society says that it is the woman's decision while you hold any damn view you wish.

Which is just a way of saying that it's ok.

 

[Pawpatrol]

The only time they're interested in treating a fetus as a person is when they can use it as a weapon to harm pregnant people.

...people who got themselves pregnant.

 

[PureX]

...people who got themselves pregnant.

No one has ever "got themselves pregnant".

 

[PureX]

I am pro-choice BUT I am not pro-abortion.

Almost no one is. Which is why the "pro-abortion" label is both offensive and misleading. Only people that hate their own species think abortion is "a good thing" ... something that should be encouraged.

Most people understand, however, that it is sometimes a necessary thing. Like warfare, criminal execution, and euthanasia.

 

[McBell]

None of us knows when a fetus becomes a human being.

What is it before it is human?

I mean, with a HUMAN sperm fertilizing a HUMAN egg and all...

 

[McBell]

If it was a human it would have rights.

What is it until it becomes human?

I mean, with a HUMAN sperm fertilizing a HUMAN egg and all...

 

[PureX]

What is it before it is human?

It's living matter with a potential to become a human being.

I mean with a HUMAN sperm fertilizing a HUMAN egg and all...

Still, not an actual human being, though.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Anyways, can you guys offer me your perspectives on what makes abortion acceptable?

Necessary, not acceptable. Not good. Bad, but necessary. You want me to write a treatise and you really intend to suffer through it?

My perspective is that I wouldn't strangle a baby, nor advocate for it. So why would I advocate for abortion?

But I realize now that there is much more nuance to it.

You cannot give birth, so it is irrelevant what you would do in a given difficult situation.

Yet I defy the assertion that it is not human life. If you are going to participate in a conversation on this thread here with me, justify the murder of the unborn human, but do not deny that it is an unborn human. I won't have it in this thread. Help me understand what makes it right to kill those yet born without dehumanizing the victims.

Christians sometimes mistakenly believe that because something is bad that it can be fixed with a law. As if we were Jewish. As if: outlaw it or Satan will take over and run amok! God will rain down fury! I have heard this preached many times, but they are liars or ignorant of the very scripture.

"[Rom 16:19-20 NIV] 19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. 20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you."​

It says nothing about making every sin illegal. Remember Prohibition? This is the same. You can't outlaw everything, and you don't need to. What you have to do is do what is right in your house.

Abortion cannot be fixed with laws but only discouraged -- by ensuring domestic tranquility. This is what the government is supposed to do and isn't doing as well as it should. It can be improved, and so abortions can be decreased greatly in that way. Abortion is a necessity sometimes, even though it is not good. Make it less needful. Make it so that fewer people are in the position of needing an abortion. This is the right way to fight abortion -- not shaming women.

You could also think of it as an American from a constitutional standpoint: From where does the Constitution derive its powers? From The People of the United States, but we don't infringe certain natural rights given by God. Nor do we seize powers not granted by God. How can the Constitution get the legitimate power to control pregnancy? It cannot. It can promote domestic tranquility though, so that there are fewer abortions. That is a power granted to it.

The unborn have no rights by-the-way. They don't need rights. They need the mother's love to live, yet you cannot make it a law that a mother must love the baby. Such a law is perverse making itself greater than God. Nor can you legislate love into existence. Your law is useless. If the mother loves them they live, and if the mother does not then they die as true outside of the womb as in, because an untouched uncomforted baby dies on its own. Food is not enough. Putting the law in between is nonsense.

 

[Pawpatrol]

No one has ever "got themselves pregnant".

Yes they have.

 

[McBell]

It's living matter with a potential to become a human being.

Still, not an actual human being, though.

You must have a vastly different definition than do I:

​

And to follow up with person:

​

 

[Altfish]

What is it before it is human?

I mean, with a HUMAN sperm fertilizing a HUMAN egg and all...

Is a woman a human?

 

[Pawpatrol]

The unborn have no rights by-the-way. They don't need rights. They need the mother's love to live, yet you cannot make it a law that a mother must love the baby. It is perverse. Nor can you legislate love into existence. Your law is useless. If the mother loves them they live, and if the mother does not then they die as true outside of the womb as in, because an untouched uncomforted baby dies on its own. Food is not enough. Putting the law in between is nonsense.

What you mean is, you wouldn't like to give them rights. By the way, how would you feel about a pregnant woman using heroin while pregnant?

A baby does not need the mother's love to live, actually. (Mothers have many responsibilities and as important as love is, I think it is over emphasized while other responsibilities are neglected) a baby needs to be taken care of. One can take care of a baby even if he/she doesn't love the baby.

As for the obligation of fulfilling the basic needs of the baby, they are on the mother, and if she fails, the baby is rightly taken away from her. She can give her baby away also if she knows she won't be fulfilling those rights. But a child is not taken away from the carer just because he/she doesn't love the baby.