About fossils -- would you say this is true?

[YoursTrue]

There may be some rare exceptions, but yes you have the gist of it.

And there are often a suite of fossils with a deposit and the species all tend to have different appearance and disappearance time. So using worldwide distributions of fossils anyone eruption can give quite a bit of evidence. Eventually the time of an object maybe be identified largely by an eruption around the world.

So would you say it is possible that the soil or sediment can shift, mix with other soil or layers, especially if it is coming from inside a volcano?

 

[YoursTrue]

An eruption on the other side of the world that lies within a sedimentary strata. If the fossil assemblage is the same one can be very sure that they are of roughly the same age.

ok...but again, can you please explain what type of dating process would be used to examine the age of the sediment. Also, might the sediment carry with it bones?

 

[YoursTrue]

The problem with dating fossils is that there is little original material in them. When, for example, an animal gets buried by volcanic ash, the ash is relatively stable in its location. The bones decay (biological decay not radioactive) and are replaced by minerals seeping in. During this process (permineralization) younger material from higher strata can replace bone material and thus lead to inaccurate dating. That's why palaeontologists prefer to date the surrounding sediment of a fossil.

How about older material that may have been displaced, or erupted that can leach into a bone? I'm assuming that ground shifting can move objects such as bones, thus placing them in areas much older, if that's possible, because I don't think ground came after animals, but that's a little joke, the point being that the possibility of erroneous dating of bones may enter the picture.

 

[YoursTrue]

An eruption on the other side of the world that lies within a sedimentary strata. If the fossil assemblage is the same one can be very sure that they are of roughly the same age.

OK, now let me see. In your estimation, has this happened yet? (an eruption that moves from one side of the world to another side of the world, if that's what you meant.)

 

[YoursTrue]

An eruption on the other side of the world that lies within a sedimentary strata. If the fossil assemblage is the same one can be very sure that they are of roughly the same age.

Certain rifts occur on the earth's surface, don't they? Like for instance the Grand Canyon, revealing a long time of stratification. OK I'll stop there.

 

[Subduction Zone]

OK, now let me see. In your estimation, has this happened yet? (an eruption that moves from one side of the world to another side of the world, if that's what you meant.)

No, that is not what I am saying. Say that there is a volcanic eruption off of Japan. There will be deposits of the ash in the surrounding seas. Some time in the future someone could look at the fossils in a layer from that time on the other side of the world and know that they were deposited at the same time as those near Japan if certain species matched up. There are fossils called index fossils and the microscopic ones can be very wide spread and have a very short time of existence. Meaning that just one species could date a layer of rock all around the world.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So would you say it is possible that the soil or sediment can shift, mix with other soil or layers, especially if it is coming from inside a volcano?

No.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Certain rifts occur on the earth's surface, don't they? Like for instance the Grand Canyon, revealing a long time of stratification. OK I'll stop there.

Once again, it is the fossils that tell us the date since we have a date for them nailed down near Japan.

 

[YoursTrue]

Opalized fossils are an example of this.
Fossils — Australian Opal Centre

Hi. That leads me to the question as to how these objects are dated. Quoting from the link, "Opal forms in cavities within rocks. If the cavity is there because part of a living thing -- for example a bone, shell or pinecone -- was buried in the sand or clay before it turned to stone, then the opal can form a fossil replica of the object that was buried."
If you think I understand that, let's see, I'll try to understand it: The article is speaking of opalized fossils. Opal forms, it says, in cavities within rocks. Then it says that in order for that to form, the bone, or something that was alive would have been buried in sand or clay. So I suppose they mean the sand or clay would eventually turn to stone with the item buried there? because it says "opal forms in cavities within ROCKS."

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hi. That leads me to the question as to how these objects are dated. Quoting from the link, "Opal forms in cavities within rocks. If the cavity is there because part of a living thing -- for example a bone, shell or pinecone -- was buried in the sand or clay before it turned to stone, then the opal can form a fossil replica of the object that was buried."
If you think I understand that, let's see, I'll try to understand it: The article is speaking of opalized fossils. Opal forms, it says, in cavities within rocks. Then it says that in order for that to form, the bone, or something that was alive would have been buried in sand or clay. So I suppose they mean the sand or clay would eventually turn to stone with the item buried there? because it says "opal forms in cavities within ROCKS."

When a fossil form the original material is sometimes completely, or almost completely replace. That is what appears to be the case with the fossils. The critter dies, gets buried and the material around it begins to lithify. If the original material is lost it will form a hollow mold that can later be filled with something else, like opal in this case.

 

[YoursTrue]

No.

No? I know you said no, but it seems to me (and of course I'm far, far from someone who knows...) that not only does ground shift upon occasion, such as flooding as we see in California, but can carry with it objects (especially lightweight ones) in that layer that is moving. Such as tsunami.

 

[YoursTrue]

When a fossil form the original material is sometimes completely, or almost completely replace. That is what appears to be the case with the fossils. The critter dies, gets buried and the material around it begins to lithify. If the original material is lost it will form a hollow mold that can later be filled with something else, like opal in this case.

The material around the bone. That could be much older than the bone, right?

 

[Heyo]

How about older material that may have been displaced, or erupted that can leach into a bone?

While that is principally possible, it's usually gravity that puts the mineral rich water towards the bones, i.e. rain water that percolates through the higher strata where it picks up the minerals. But it is possible that older water is forced upwards by pressure.

I'm assuming that ground shifting can move objects such as bones, thus placing them in areas much older, if that's possible, because I don't think ground came after animals, but that's a little joke, the point being that the possibility of erroneous dating of bones may enter the picture.

As @Subduction Zone already said, that's near impossible as fossils move together with the material they are embedded in.
Erroneous dating is always possible and the most important source is contamination - modern contamination.
Scientists therefore use multiple methods to be sure.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No? I know you said no, but it seems to me (and of course I'm far, far from someone who knows...) that not only does ground shift upon occasion, such as flooding as we see in California, but can carry with it objects (especially lightweight ones) in that layer that is moving. Such as tsunami.

Yes, but such actions are still local. You misunderstood how sometimes when a specific fossils, or a suite of fossils is dated that that same fossil or suite of fossils elsewhere will tell you that the two layers are of the same age.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The material around the bone. That could be much older than the bone, right?

Not in a stratigraphy sense. When one dates a layer one is dating when it was deposited. At least most of the time. Sometimes scientists are curious about how old the sediments were that formed it, but most of the time they want to know when the various sediments were laid down.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

There is one example that I know of where the rate of decay of an isotope was varied. But they had to go through extremes to accomplish this. A transition metal had all of its electrons stripped. And it had a massive decrease in half life. The problem is that even within the Sun there is not enough energy to strip such an element of all of its electrons. This particular case has been used by creationists to show that sometimes the rate of decay can be made to vary. They try to cover up the fact how difficult it was to accomplish this. In nature the needed conditions would also melt the crust and then some. In fact the one that I am thinking of would probably vaporize the crust.

For all practical purposes decay rates cannot be altered.

I am not so sure about your claim Subduction...read below

a study performed by B. Wang et al and published in the European Physical Journal A was able to measure that the electron capture half-life of beryllium-7 was made 0.9% longer by surrounding the beryllium atoms with palladium atoms. In addition to altering the chemical bonds, the half-life can be altered by simply removing electrons from the atom... the half-life of a radioactive material can [also] be changed by bombarding it with high-energy radiation.
Can the decay half-life of a radioactive material be changed?

Radioactive decay is a stochastic (i.e. random) process at the level of single atoms. According to quantum theory, it is impossible to predict when a particular atom will decay, regardless of how long the atom has existed. Radioactive decay - Wikipedia

study presents an overview of the methods of geological radiometric dating. Several of these dating methods, such as the U-235 chain, U-238 chain, Th-230, and Th-232 chain, which are used in geological dating, may be affected by its findings. Our results question the reliability and accuracy of these dating methods. Indeed, solar activity varies over time because the sun has undergone an evolutionary process, changing the half-life duration of radioactive isotopes that are used for dating and defining the age of layers Solar Flares Influence on Geological Radioactive Dating MethodsYael Peleg Goldberg Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, 2021

In order to track more radiation count-rate responses to solar flare events, we built an experimental detector system for gamma radiation count-rates measurements, facing an Am-241 radioactive source. The system was tracking gamma rays that follow an alpha particle emission. The system was placed at an underground laboratory, permanently locked to avoid any influence by unexpected radiation perturbations, and environmentally controlled in means of temperature and clean-air flow, in order to maintain detectors stabilization. The detector was consists of NaI(Tl) scintillator and total-counting reader devices for remote counting. The radiation counting system was shielded by a 5 cm lead. One month prior to flare events from the Sun, all three detectors showed reasonably stable count-rates, which were tallied every 15 minutes. Five solar-flares occurred and reported by the SpaceWeatherLive website on 12th to 13th of October 2018. The Am-241 system response to solar flares found to be with a delay of around 16 days, however its response shape is in high significance.
In previously published research, measurements of half-life radioactive sources presented an annual periodical change, despite the customary notion that radioactive decay should be considered a physical constant for each radionuclide (Lapp, 1954). https://arxiv.org/pdf/1902.10131
​

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am not so sure about this claim...

a study performed by B. Wang et al and published in the European Physical Journal A was able to measure that the electron capture half-life of beryllium-7 was made 0.9% longer by surrounding the beryllium atoms with palladium atoms. In addition to altering the chemical bonds, the half-life can be altered by simply removing electrons from the atom... the half-life of a radioactive material can [also] be changed by bombarding it with high-energy radiation.
Can the decay half-life of a radioactive material be changed?

Radioactive decay is a stochastic (i.e. random) process at the level of single atoms. According to quantum theory, it is impossible to predict when a particular atom will decay, regardless of how long the atom has existed. Radioactive decay - Wikipedia

study presents an overview of the methods of geological radiometric dating. Several of these dating methods, such as the U-235 chain, U-238 chain, Th-230, and Th-232 chain, which are used in geological dating, may be affected by its findings. Our results question the reliability and accuracy of these dating methods. Indeed, solar activity varies over time because the sun has undergone an evolutionary process, changing the half-life duration of radioactive isotopes that are used for dating and defining the age of layers Solar Flares Influence on Geological Radioactive Dating MethodsYael Peleg Goldberg Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, 2021
​

The solar activity claim was found to be experimental error in a later study. Since you did not use any valid links does that mean that I don't need any? If you need some I can provide them, but you must promise not to use bogus sources in the future.

Your other example can be traced to a peer reviewed paper, but an increase in half life, though such a small one that it hardly makes any difference does not help you, it hurts you.

The one example of a sped up decay of biblical proportions was that of Rhenium87. If you went beyond vaporizing the crust this might be possible. Lucky for us that never happened. Even the creationists should be thankful for that. A vaporized Noah and family probably could not have repopulated the Earth.

 

[Audie]

I am not so sure about your claim Subduction...read below

a study performed by B. Wang et al and published in the European Physical Journal A was able to measure that the electron capture half-life of beryllium-7 was made 0.9% longer by surrounding the beryllium atoms with palladium atoms. In addition to altering the chemical bonds, the half-life can be altered by simply removing electrons from the atom... the half-life of a radioactive material can [also] be changed by bombarding it with high-energy radiation.
Can the decay half-life of a radioactive material be changed?

Radioactive decay is a stochastic (i.e. random) process at the level of single atoms. According to quantum theory, it is impossible to predict when a particular atom will decay, regardless of how long the atom has existed. Radioactive decay - Wikipedia

study presents an overview of the methods of geological radiometric dating. Several of these dating methods, such as the U-235 chain, U-238 chain, Th-230, and Th-232 chain, which are used in geological dating, may be affected by its findings. Our results question the reliability and accuracy of these dating methods. Indeed, solar activity varies over time because the sun has undergone an evolutionary process, changing the half-life duration of radioactive isotopes that are used for dating and defining the age of layers Solar Flares Influence on Geological Radioactive Dating MethodsYael Peleg Goldberg Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, 2021

In order to track more radiation count-rate responses to solar flare events, we built an experimental detector system for gamma radiation count-rates measurements, facing an Am-241 radioactive source. The system was tracking gamma rays that follow an alpha particle emission. The system was placed at an underground laboratory, permanently locked to avoid any influence by unexpected radiation perturbations, and environmentally controlled in means of temperature and clean-air flow, in order to maintain detectors stabilization. The detector was consists of NaI(Tl) scintillator and total-counting reader devices for remote counting. The radiation counting system was shielded by a 5 cm lead. One month prior to flare events from the Sun, all three detectors showed reasonably stable count-rates, which were tallied every 15 minutes. Five solar-flares occurred and reported by the SpaceWeatherLive website on 12th to 13th of October 2018. The Am-241 system response to solar flares found to be with a delay of around 16 days, however its response shape is in high significance.
In previously published research, measurements of half-life radioactive sources presented an annual periodical change, despite the customary notion that radioactive decay should be considered a physical constant for each radionuclide (Lapp, 1954). https://arxiv.org/pdf/1902.10131
​

Are you just now learning about the things you quoted?

In the event, C14, like cars and dentistry, its nor perfect. Like cars etc., it works quite well.

What's the ussue?

 

[YoursTrue]

When a fossil form the original material is sometimes completely, or almost completely replace. That is what appears to be the case with the fossils. The critter dies, gets buried and the material around it begins to lithify. If the original material is lost it will form a hollow mold that can later be filled with something else, like opal in this case.

So--after looking up the word 'lithify' I see that the object turns to stone. More precisely, according to a dictionary definition, it means to transform (a sediment or other material) into stone: And these sediments are LITHIFIED to form shales, limestones, and sandstones. So stone (now I'm beginning to wonder what STONE is..) comes from something (whatever...) into stone, I GUESS it means a very hard substance. But technically I have no idea. Now the point is though about dating. So now let me ask about bones that may be found unaffected by lithification if that is possible, such as those found in the floor of a cave without having been absorbed, if that's possible. I mean I've read that bones have been found lying in a cave. I don't know how these bones are tested, if they are tested, because if I remember correctly, bones themselves without being absorbed by something else around them cannot be tested for dates. Am I correct about this? Just wondering -- but I don't want to put you or others to the test particularly because I see (1) it is very complicated (for me) and (2) some people, like Gould spend LIFETIMES examining these particulars which can change anyway as new findings and realizations are discovered.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So--after looking up the word 'lithify' I see that the object turns to stone. More precisely, according to a dictionary definition, it means to transform (a sediment or other material) into stone: And these sediments are LITHIFIED to form shales, limestones, and sandstones. So stone (now I'm beginning to wonder what STONE is..) comes from something (whatever...) into stone, I GUESS it means a very hard substance. But technically I have no idea. Now the point is though about dating. So now let me ask about bones that may be found unaffected by lithification if that is possible, such as those found in the floor of a cave without having been absorbed, if that's possible. I mean I've read that bones have been found lying in a cave. I don't know how these bones are tested, if they are tested, because if I remember correctly, bones themselves without being absorbed by something else around them cannot be tested for dates. Am I correct about this? Just wondering -- but I don't want to put you or others to the test particularly because I see (1) it is very complicated (for me) and (2) some people, like Gould spend LIFETIMES examining these particulars which can change anyway as new findings and realizations are discovered.

Lithify just means that the sediments became cemented to each other and they set.

Why focus on the obvious? At some point in time the sediments of almost any strata cemented and set.