About herd immunity

[Twilight Hue]

How are public health measures an abuse of power? They're trying to keep the public safe.

Not when they intentionally destroy people's livelihood and ruining entire businesses.

 

[SomeRandom]

Not when they intentionally destroy people's livelihood and ruining entire businesses.

Pretty sure killing off your potential customer base does that just as efficiently. Just an observation

 

[Valjean]

Not when they intentionally destroy people's livelihood and ruining entire businesses.

Not intentional, just an unfortunate side effect.

Everything's a balance between risks and benefits. Sometimes a long term benefit entails negative, short-term consequences. Almost all technological advances negatively impact those involved in previous technologies, for example.

Persistent covid will have greater negative consequences, in the long run, than carrying on business as usual. Lives, safety and security usually trump economic concerns.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Pretty sure killing off your potential customer base does that just as efficiently. Just an observation

That's less likely than a person being homeless cause her job and peers blame her for not getting vaxed. Even more so homeless because of businesses going out of business and leaving people homeless (least they got vaxxed, I guess it's okay?)

 

[Twilight Hue]

Not intentional, just an unfortunate side effect.

Everything's a balance between risks and benefits. Sometimes a long term benefit entails negative, short-term consequences. Almost all technological advances negatively impact those involved in previous technologies, for example.

Persistent covid will have greater negative consequences, in the long run, than carrying on business as usual. Lives, safety and security usually trump economic concerns.

No. It's intentional, precise, and direct.

They, meaning the people responsible, knew full well they were proactively destroying people's lives , homes, and careers all in the name of security and safety.

 

[rational experiences]

Herd immunity in human psyche.

A large herd on the crop. Crop circles stopped ground opening end attacks.

A member of the herd dies attacked.

One. One by one time removal inherited because of science.

One mind. One human. One theist the reasoned answer.

Surely God will save us says science.

Well you weren't the one taken were you?

 

[Valjean]

No. It's intentional, precise, and direct.

They, meaning the people responsible, knew full well they were proactively destroying people's lives , homes, and careers all in the name of security and safety.

Do you seriously think there's a massive conspiracy to ruin peoples lives and destroy the economy?To what end? Whom would it benefit -- unless it's a right-wing plot to sow anger and chaos, driving people further to the radical right, and the Republicans.
Yeah, that must be it....

 

[Twilight Hue]

Do you seriously think there's a massive conspiracy to ruin peoples lives and destroy the economy?To what end? Whom would it benefit -- unless it's a right-wing plot to sow anger and chaos, driving people further to the radical right, and the Republicans.
Yeah, that must be it....

Your obviously blind or playing dumb like so many enjoy to do.

Just like you conveniently decided to put Republican into the mix when I never mentioned Republican. I just said they, the people responsible.

Look out there in the real world around you and tell me how many businesses were shuttered and were forced out of business with people losing their, homes, livelihoods, and careers. Many left with crushing debt in the aftermath.

What do think the 'bailout' was for?

Yea it was a 'conspiracy'. A real one come true.

Instead , I'd prefer to call it a direct all out attack. One that actually happened already with the shuttered and closed buildings left to rot.

It's called reality btw. It happened.

 

[SomeRandom]

That's less likely than a person being homeless cause her job and peers blame her for not getting vaxed. Even more so homeless because of businesses going out of business and leaving people homeless (least they got vaxxed, I guess it's okay?)

That’s a problem that your welfare system needs to address, I guess?
Same as ours.
And sure people will blame the unvaccinated. I mean what can I tell you? Actions have societal repercussions. That’s just how life is.

This is one of those scenarios where if health advice was followed in the beginning and swift decisive action was taken early on, everything would likely be back to normal. Maybe with more online shopping, I dunno.
So which would you rather? Immediate short term loss in favour of long term survival or short term “normalcy” but suffering in the long term?

Now me, I’m for supporting small businesses during these trying times. Stimulus packages. Added welfare if need be even. We need to remain open as much as possible. But I’m also realistic. It can’t just be an anarchist free for all either.
Though there will be “casualties” either way. Unfortunately that’s nothing new


For the record my employer now has a “no jab no job” policy. Deadline is next March. There is no government mandate for such a thing in my country. Last I checked anyway.
So I already have the choice of trying to find another job (though I’d wager such a policy will be rather prominent for the time being.) Or getting the jab and showing my proof of vax. If that makes you feel any better

 

[Valjean]

Look out there in the real world around you and tell me how many businesses were shuttered and were forced out of business with people losing their, homes, livelihoods, and careers. Many left with crushing debt in the aftermath.

The small businesses were driven out of business or swallowed up by monopolistic corporations, after a protracted campaign to undo all the anti-trust legislation that had held them in check since the Great Depression.

What do think the 'bailout' was for?

You mean the socialist bailout of the banks, after they helped crash the economy back in '08? Too bad the people affected, the victims, didn't have the political clout to get any assistance, themselves.

Yea it was a 'conspiracy'. A real one come true.

Quite right -- but on the Right, initiated, perhaps, by the Powell Memo. The Scheme 1: The Powell Memo | U.S. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island
The Neoliberal Right has been running roughshod and unrestrained over the economy since 1980. The middle class has stagnated or declined, and all the wealth has 'trickled up' to the top. The "economic royalists" have successfully managed to blame all this on the liberals and Democrats.

Instead, I'd prefer to call it a direct all out attack. One that actually happened already with the shuttered and closed buildings left to rot.

Not following; an attack by whom, on what?
Shuttered and closed buildings? Are you talking about the rust belt or third-world outsourcing? If so, these are a product of unrestrained free trade (Neoliberalism), and low corporate taxes. I can explain, if you want.

Twilight, I think you've drunk the corporate Cool Aid and been seduced into supporting your own oppressors.
If I suggested some reading, would you be interested?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That’s a problem that your welfare system needs to address, I guess?
Same as ours.
And sure people will blame the unvaccinated. I mean what can I tell you? Actions have societal repercussions. That’s just how life is.

This is one of those scenarios where if health advice was followed in the beginning and swift decisive action was taken early on, everything would likely be back to normal. Maybe with more online shopping, I dunno.
So which would you rather? Immediate short term loss in favour of long term survival or short term “normalcy” but suffering in the long term?

Now me, I’m for supporting small businesses during these trying times. Stimulus packages. Added welfare if need be even. We need to remain open as much as possible. But I’m also realistic. It can’t just be an anarchist free for all either.
Though there will be “casualties” either way. Unfortunately that’s nothing new


For the record my employer now has a “no jab no job” policy. Deadline is next March. There is no government mandate for such a thing in my country. Last I checked anyway.
So I already have the choice of trying to find another job (though I’d wager such a policy will be rather prominent for the time being.) Or getting the jab and showing my proof of vax. If that makes you feel any better

The problem with jobs existed before the mandates just it was handled more about politics than about health. People's individual morals may be about health, they say, but as a government and media doesn't take that approach. Trusting what the government wants to do in a health crises means trusting the government in general.

For example, many children may not trust their parents if their parents were verbally abusive. Then if the mother actually wants to protect that child that won't supersede the relationship the child already has to warrant that trust.

My job says get the jab or lose my job. I'm resigning. They can't enforce it till Jan 4th and that's still up for grabs. The alternative is take weekly testing which I'll do with my other job I have now. No one said anything, cross my fingers.

But I honestly wouldn't blame people who lost their job over this. Keeping a job is a poor incentive to get vaccinated. I'm sure no provaxxer wants to do anything against will and get blamed for their choices. Religiously, that sounds like a free will argument. Free to choice but choose the right one or be dammed.

Another problem I see here is assuming all countries have the same resources, population, government, and everyone should have the same morals because it's a "global health crisis." Saving the world is a good ideal, but not realistic to a global population.

 

[SomeRandom]

The problem with jobs existed before the mandates just it was handled more about politics than about health. People's individual morals may be about health, they say, but as a government and media doesn't take that approach. Trusting what the government wants to do in a health crises means trusting the government in general.

Hmm if you don’t mind me saying so, this seems like a purely US cultural thing. At least from what I’ve encountered
Sure no one really “trusts the Government” but you guys seem to go out of your way to distrust the government. Not that I blame you, mind.
But for me I live in a country that has its healthcare system literally run by the government. Health mandates are a matter of course. Before the pandemic no less.
So whilst I don’t trust a politician as far as I can throw em, I also don’t think they’d be dumb enough to purposefully ignore health advice from experts. It would not be beneficial to them or their pockets in the long run
So I shrug my shoulders and adhere to whatever restrictions are set out. Which thankfully for my state was nothing too serious.
And nothing nefarious has happened.

For example, many children may not trust their parents if their parents were verbally abusive. Then if the mother actually wants to protect that child that won't supersede the relationship the child already has to warrant that trust.

Whilst understandable, what has your government done specifically that is abusive to its people?
Do you live in a war torn country where your politicians are warlords or something else horrid? Because then I could understand rebelling against them

My job says get the jab or lose my job. I'm resigning. They can't enforce it till Jan 4th and that's still up for grabs. The alternative is take weekly testing which I'll do with my other job I have now. No one has me said anything, cross my fingers.

You choice is your choice. Sounds a lot of hoops to jump through though. And you have the freedom to do so, it sounds like.

But I honestly wouldn't blame people who lost their job over this. Keeping a job is a poor incentive to get vaccinated. I'm sure no provaxxer wants to do anything against will and get blamed for their choices. Religiously, that sounds like a free will argument. Free to choice but choose the right one or be dammed.

I don’t want anyone to lose their job over this. If a person has a medical condition that prevents vaccination, fair enough. They’re already exempt though.
But I prioritise public safety when push comes to shove.
If say a nurse doesn’t get the vaxx out of sheer choice. Well obviously I don’t want them to lose their job, that person probably has a family to feed. But I’d rather they find an alternative than put the public at risk. Because let’s be real here. It’s either that or the potential that others lose much more than a job.
My mother works in the disabled sector as a support worker. Her mandate for the jab was like months ago due to her proximity to a very vulnerable community. Sometimes your responsibility demands that you protect those around you. Your clients, your family, your community.
My mum often has very bad reactions to vaccines in general. Not that she’s allergic, just one of those things. But she still got the jab. Because as she puts it
“It would have been quite Adharmic (immoral/unethical) of me to put those poor people at risk.”
So sometimes it’s a religious choice to get vaxxed. And sometimes to get vaxxed is the ethical thing to do. Depending on one’s job/proximity to vulnerable communities.
Not just the other way around.

Another problem I see here is assuming all countries have the same resources, population, government, and everyone should have the same morals because it's a "global health crisis." Saving the world is a good ideal, but not realistic to a global population.

Fair point. I support measure to help struggling governments with resources, for what it’s worth.
I can only speak to the perspective of a Western country, though. That’s my limitation of experience

 

[Unveiled Artist]

don’t want anyone to lose their job over this. If a person has a medical condition that prevents vaccination, fair enough. They’re already exempt though.

I'll have to read the rest later. What makes this political is exempt people can spread the virus too. Why isn't there news on helping the exempt than there is news how those choose are to blame for potential "crimes"?

I mean you may not want people to lose their jobs but by default you're supporting this if you support mandates. I don't know if you blame people for loosing their jobs but saying you don't want people to and IF you're blaming them because they have the two doesn't add up....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmm if you don’t mind me saying so, this seems like a purely US cultural thing. At least from what I’ve encountered
Sure no one really “trusts the Government” but you guys seem to go out of your way to distrust the government. Not that I blame you, mind.
But for me I live in a country that has its healthcare system literally run by the government. Health mandates are a matter of course. Before the pandemic no less.
So whilst I don’t trust a politician as far as I can throw em, I also don’t think they’d be dumb enough to purposefully ignore health advice from experts. It would not be beneficial to them or their pockets in the long run
So I shrug my shoulders and adhere to whatever restrictions are set out. Which thankfully for my state was nothing too serious.
And nothing nefarious has happened.

The cultural part is we're more individualist than collectivist. Take someone's freedom of speech and decisions way (whether taking the vaccine or not, for example), they'd be a problem. As for the government, I'm kind of at a loss because provaxxers in the US say they are thinking of people's health not politics but quick to associate (and even use the term) antivaxers with Trump and so forth. So, there's a lot of contradiction in our political opinions and the government tends to muddle things up. It's weird people don't see it with the pandemic but they see it in the election and other things as if the US all of the sudden changed its morality overnight.

US is pretty huge so majority of us haven't "felt" the pandemic but react to it on a secondary level. I wouldn't guess otherwise that smaller countries felt the pandemic more. So their view would be more health oriented. The US there's individual morals.... but I guess, in my opinion, people assume that the pandemic brings us together but actually it's dividing people. Saying it's about health doesn't excuse the problem just diverts it.

Whilst understandable, what has your government done specifically that is abusive to its people?
Do you live in a war torn country where your politicians are warlords or something else horrid? Because then I could understand rebelling against them

It's a long history. I'm not a history major but if you look up US wars, politics, Depression, and things like that you can get a gist of what affects our economic perspective.

Ask someone about Trump versus Biden, you'd get the picture there. Then ask about conservatives and whether they have something good to say about them.

You choice is your choice. Sounds a lot of hoops to jump through though. And you have the freedom to do so, it sounds like.

Thanks. Individualism helped a lot with things like women's rights, lgbt rights, and other people's rights... so we tend to be a "rights" country... well, until the pandemic where people forgot about that in leu of people dying. If they didn't divide people that would be one thing, but since they do, well, "maybe" we'd see the aftermath once they say the pandemic is over. I don't know.

I don’t want anyone to lose their job over this. If a person has a medical condition that prevents vaccination, fair enough. They’re already exempt though.
But I prioritise public safety when push comes to shove.

If say a nurse doesn’t get the vaxx out of sheer choice. Well obviously I don’t want them to lose their job, that person probably has a family to feed. But I’d rather they find an alternative than put the public at risk. Because let’s be real here. It’s either that or the potential that others lose much more than a job.
My mother works in the disabled sector as a support worker. Her mandate for the jab was like months ago due to her proximity to a very vulnerable community. Sometimes your responsibility demands that you protect those around you. Your clients, your family, your community.

My mum often has very bad reactions to vaccines in general. Not that she’s allergic, just one of those things. But she still got the jab. Because as she puts it

“It would have been quite Adharmic (immoral/unethical) of me to put those poor people at risk.”
So sometimes it’s a religious choice to get vaxxed. And sometimes to get vaxxed is the ethical thing to do. Depending on one’s job/proximity to vulnerable communities.
Not just the other way around

Job requirement wise, I can see it. However, this wasn't in the contract before nurses got their position and based on the trust factor, discrimination, and saying it's a "health" thing but kicking unvaccinated covid patients out the hospital is very contradicting.

But to put it bluntly, I don't see nurses and other unvaccinated people putting others in danger. Unless they have COVID, they are not.

However, by blaming people for losing their job because they chose not to vaccinate alone shows you want people to lose their jobs because it's their fault in the first place. Someone who is exempt can still spread COVID, that's why I don't see it as a health issue only. That's just me, though.

Fair point. I support measure to help struggling governments with resources, for what it’s worth. I can only speak to the perspective of a Western country, though. That’s my limitation of experience

I wish everyone spoke acknowledging their limitation of other people's cultural values, history, and norms. The problem is the politics and fear because people are dying and the idea that we're saving the world kind of puts all the rest aside even if it means stepping on people on the way to a solution.

I can't put people's livelihoods down because of how many people die and what they tell me I should be/feel/act/believe. But I'm just little old me. I didn't wake up asymptomatic, so all this anxiousness is just what we are told.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmm if you don’t mind me saying so, this seems like a purely US cultural thing. At least from what I’ve encountered
Sure no one really “trusts the Government” but you guys seem to go out of your way to distrust the government. Not that I blame you, mind.
But for me I live in a country that has its healthcare system literally run by the government. Health mandates are a matter of course. Before the pandemic no less.
So whilst I don’t trust a politician as far as I can throw em, I also don’t think they’d be dumb enough to purposefully ignore health advice from experts. It would not be beneficial to them or their pockets in the long run
So I shrug my shoulders and adhere to whatever restrictions are set out. Which thankfully for my state was nothing too serious.
And nothing nefarious has happened.

Whilst understandable, what has your government done specifically that is abusive to its people?
Do you live in a war torn country where your politicians are warlords or something else horrid? Because then I could understand rebelling against them


You choice is your choice. Sounds a lot of hoops to jump through though. And you have the freedom to do so, it sounds like.


I don’t want anyone to lose their job over this. If a person has a medical condition that prevents vaccination, fair enough. They’re already exempt though.
But I prioritise public safety when push comes to shove.
If say a nurse doesn’t get the vaxx out of sheer choice. Well obviously I don’t want them to lose their job, that person probably has a family to feed. But I’d rather they find an alternative than put the public at risk. Because let’s be real here. It’s either that or the potential that others lose much more than a job.
My mother works in the disabled sector as a support worker. Her mandate for the jab was like months ago due to her proximity to a very vulnerable community. Sometimes your responsibility demands that you protect those around you. Your clients, your family, your community.
My mum often has very bad reactions to vaccines in general. Not that she’s allergic, just one of those things. But she still got the jab. Because as she puts it
“It would have been quite Adharmic (immoral/unethical) of me to put those poor people at risk.”
So sometimes it’s a religious choice to get vaxxed. And sometimes to get vaxxed is the ethical thing to do. Depending on one’s job/proximity to vulnerable communities.
Not just the other way around.


Fair point. I support measure to help struggling governments with resources, for what it’s worth.
I can only speak to the perspective of a Western country, though. That’s my limitation of experience

Here's a link on something's happening cause of mandates. I'm not in these states but it's good they are doing something to help people. Here are all the states providing unemployment benefits for people who quit or were fired because they refused to get vaccinated

How does these penalities for not vaccinating saving people from the pandemic and how is it a good incentive to get vaccinated?

 

[SomeRandom]

Here's a link on something's happening cause of mandates. I'm not in these states but it's good they are doing something to help people. Here are all the states providing unemployment benefits for people who quit or were fired because they refused to get vaccinated

Well that’s good to hear.

How does these penalities for not vaccinating saving people from the pandemic and how is it a good incentive to get vaccinated?

Well in all honesty, it’s the result of living in a capitalistic society. Monetary incentives are the go to in all matters. It’s why we fine businesses for failing health standards. Or why a copper fines you for speeding. It’s seen as an easy rather innocuous way to penalise folks. Not always ideal, but it’s just a tool, really.

Ideally stopping a literal pandemic would be enough incentive to vaccinate in the first place (at least from the perspective of immunologists/biologists and those who study infectious diseases.)
Apparently that is not the case as demonstrated by the percentages of people refusing, not due to medical grounds. Which are always exempted anyway. But by choice.

The way I see it there will be a market base of folks upset at being penalised by all this commotion. So where there is a demand, supply comes a knocking. So people wanting monetary compensation or a employer who won’t require proof of vaccination, I think they may find it. The amount of such employers may vary though lol
On the flip side I think many businesses have recognised that a pandemic and lockdown restrictions means a loss of paying customers in the long run, hurting their bottom line. It’s likely why many businesses here have already put forth a requirement of proof of the current vaccine as a policy, despite there not being any real government mandates or even calls for such policies to be implemented.
Businesses will get to claim the PR points, whilst also implicitly recognising that a healthy customer base is a continuing paying one. Sure it won’t be for altruistic reasons, but the goal is the same. Keep folks alive and/or out of hospital in the long run.

Because that’s the thing. Death isn’t the only concern during this pandemic. Even for the young. Beds were filling up to overflowing capacity for a reason. How severe and how long such side affects of the disease will last will need to be studied in real time, for obvious reasons.

In comparison to an admittedly legitimate concern raised from one version of the vaccine. (And don’t forget all this meant was you could just stomp your feet at your doctor to give you the other vaccine options anyway. That’s what a lot of boomers around me did so they could get Pfizer instead lol.)
Such a side affect I might add was immediately reported by the scientific community and dealt with rapidly.

So the choice is between maybe a couple days worth of mild flu side affects (vaccine.)
Or potentially expose yourself to being infected with a disease that can cause life long breathing issues, loss of smell/taste and other issues we’re still studying the affects of.
And so called “natural immunity” wanes a lot faster than a vaccine does. Also doesn’t protect you from other variants in the future. Vaccines often combine variants of a single disease by default.

 

[SomeRandom]

The cultural part is we're more individualist than collectivist. Take someone's freedom of speech and decisions way (whether taking the vaccine or not, for example), they'd be a problem. As for the government, I'm kind of at a loss because provaxxers in the US say they are thinking of people's health not politics but quick to associate (and even use the term) antivaxers with Trump and so forth. So, there's a lot of contradiction in our political opinions and the government tends to muddle things up. It's weird people don't see it with the pandemic but they see it in the election and other things as if the US all of the sudden changed its morality overnight.

Yeah, please don’t take this the wrong way, but you guys don’t always have the most “adult” of reputations as a country overseas. I really mean no offence. It’s just that that individualistic attitude is not always seen as a plus. If you get me?
But different cultures I suppose

US is pretty huge so majority of us haven't "felt" the pandemic but react to it on a secondary level. I wouldn't guess otherwise that smaller countries felt the pandemic more. So their view would be more health oriented. The US there's individual morals.... but I guess, in my opinion, people assume that the pandemic brings us together but actually it's dividing people. Saying it's about health doesn't excuse the problem just diverts it.

That’s a valid point. Even I likely haven’t felt the results as keenly as some of my countrymen. My state had restrictions for a while but they weren’t as severe as some of the other states.
Most I felt was an annoyance at masks and at the moment not being able to buy everything (grocery wise) due to ongoing supply issues caused by the pandemic.
But ehh, I’ll live.

It's a long history. I'm not a history major but if you look up US wars, politics, Depression, and things like that you can get a gist of what affects our economic perspective.

That’s likely what affects ours as well. You weren’t always a superpower, remember that.

Ask someone about Trump versus Biden, you'd get the picture there. Then ask about conservatives and whether they have something good to say about them.

I fear to these days. If I’m completely honest with you.

Thanks. Individualism helped a lot with things like women's rights, lgbt rights, and other people's rights... so we tend to be a "rights" country... well, until the pandemic where people forgot about that in leu of people dying. If they didn't divide people that would be one thing, but since they do, well, "maybe" we'd see the aftermath once they say the pandemic is over. I don't know.

Ehh. In my opinion individualism only really saw it’s goals reached through the implementation of a collective. I mean there was a lot of infighting in such movements (even today in fact) and to my view, it was only when folks banded together did anything meaningful get done. Which is interesting, right? Individualism needing the collective to realise their rights. Kind of funny in a way
Regardless, that’s another different discussion altogether. One that is likely very nuanced and requires more depth.

Job requirement wise, I can see it. However, this wasn't in the contract before nurses got their position and based on the trust factor, discrimination, and saying it's a "health" thing but kicking unvaccinated covid patients out the hospital is very contradicting.

I don’t think precedent can be used during a pandemic, since it’s normally considered an extreme or emergency situation regardless. But I don’t know how US labour union rules works, so I’m the wrong person to ask. I don’t think the health workers unions here have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to vaccine requirements right now. But I don’t know, really.

But to put it bluntly, I don't see nurses and other unvaccinated people putting others in danger. Unless they have COVID, they are not.

So you don’t think those in close constant proximity with vulnerable communities pose any threats? What about a ward containing those with auto immune disorders? I would think even the janitors would need to be vaccinated to work those areas. Even before the pandemic. Since a common cold could pose a severe risk.
Also ironically enough it’s actually the unvaccinated that technically relies on the vaccinated for protection against preventable diseases. That’s true of literally every preventable disease we currently vaccinate for. It’s why allowances for medical exemptions are a rule, not an exception.

However, by blaming people for losing their job because they chose not to vaccinate alone shows you want people to lose their jobs because it's their fault in the first place. Someone who is exempt can still spread COVID, that's why I don't see it as a health issue only. That's just me, though.

I find it’s helpful to think of Vaccination as sort of like a giant force field around the community. There will always be a few holes in it (medical exemptions.) And that’s fine. It will still work optimally. Because once the virus enters the body of a vaccinated person, the transmission of said virus effectively stops dead in its tracks. Thereby putting a barrier between the disease (stopped dead by a vaccinated person) and the community at large. But more importantly those who cannot vax for medical reasons. The level of herd immunity required for optimal effectiveness of vaccines has more to do with how infectious a disease is, rather than the disease itself. So the less infectious a disease is, the less amount of the vaccinated is required. The more infectious, the larger the amount required. That’s just how biology works, I’m afraid.

As this is considered a very highly infectious disease, the herd immunity rates required is actually pretty high by default.
So right now we need a strong forcefield with a few holes in it. You follow? But when you have large percentages of people opting out, instead we’re left with chunks of our forcefield missing. Does that make sense? This by default leaves us vulnerable. Think of this it this way. You go out of your way to take a pill with maybe some mild side affects. And my specific actions or rather my purposeful inaction makes that medication you took absolutely moot. So you now have to find another method to address your illness. Including suffering the side affects. Potentially
Would you not be upset at my inaction?

That’s probably why folks tend to be harsher on those opting out than on people with medical issues. It’s sort of like
“At least they have an excuse” kind of scenario. And the chance of the current vaccine being undone by people opting out is by default very high due to the required high level of herd immunity.

Now I agree that being divisive isn’t helpful. But reacting to it isn’t always helpful either, I’ve found. Even on here, I have found that I need to work on not simply reacting all the time. I’m trying to do better.

I wish everyone spoke acknowledging their limitation of other people's cultural values, history, and norms. The problem is the politics and fear because people are dying and the idea that we're saving the world kind of puts all the rest aside even if it means stepping on people on the way to a solution.

Hmm recognising one’s limitations is sometimes a hard pill to swallow. I think it’s beneficial though.

I can't put people's livelihoods down because of how many people die and what they tell me I should be/feel/act/believe. But I'm just little old me. I didn't wake up asymptomatic, so all this anxiousness is just what we are told.

I can only try to explain how the vaccination rates work and what pandemic measures entail. To the best of my very meagre abilities. This is all new territory for me as well. But try not to get worked up by it all, would be my advice. I try to avoid a lot of the news pertaining to the pandemic. Unless it’s pertinent to my living situation. I follow health guidelines, government requirements and consult with my GP if I am really concerned about something. I will admit to using more sanitiser than usual though lol

 

[Valjean]

No. It's intentional, precise, and direct.

They, meaning the people responsible, knew full well they were proactively destroying people's lives , homes, and careers all in the name of security and safety.

Like Henry Ford knew he was putting carters, stable workers, street cleaners, farriers, &c out of homes and employment. How the development of heavy equipment put an army of laborers out of work.
Every change, and most acts, entail both harm and benefit.
Status quo and short-term considerations are rarely the optimal moves, in the long run.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You know it makes me wonder what people's deal breakers are with their morals when it comes to independence which is what got us where we are today. My coworker would even give up her child for God. Now that says something there.

Yeah, please don’t take this the wrong way, but you guys don’t always have the most “adult” of reputations as a country overseas. I really mean no offence. It’s just that that individualistic attitude is not always seen as a plus. If you get me?
But different cultures I suppose

I read about our culture and people perceive us as having big egos. The problem is we're not all one ethnicity and culture here. So, culture wise you see it in our politics but it varies in intensity when you visit people's homes. Stereotyping.

That’s a valid point. Even I likely haven’t felt the results as keenly as some of my countrymen. My state had restrictions for a while but they weren’t as severe as some of the other states.
Most I felt was an annoyance at masks and at the moment not being able to buy everything (grocery wise) due to ongoing supply issues caused by the pandemic.
But ehh, I’ll live.

Yeah. Austria and Greece have string segregation between vax and unvax. The US it's so far medical government workers. We just switched governors so not sure what will happen. He's republican if that matters are highly prochoice (pun intended).

That’s likely what affects ours as well. You weren’t always a superpower, remember that.

Shrugs.

fear to these days. If I’m completely honest with you.

Ehh. In my opinion individualism only really saw it’s goals reached through the implementation of a collective. I mean there was a lot of infighting in such movements (even today in fact) and to my view, it was only when folks banded together did anything meaningful get done. Which is interesting, right? Individualism needing the collective to realise their rights. Kind of funny in a way
Regardless, that’s another different discussion altogether. One that is likely very nuanced and requires more depth.

It's a group of individuals in collaboration is how I see it. That's different when people see themselves as not different than

....tbc

don’t think precedent can be used during a pandemic, since it’s normally considered an extreme or emergency situation regardless. But I don’t know how US labour union rules works, so I’m the wrong person to ask. I don’t think the health workers unions here have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to vaccine requirements right now. But I don’t know, really.

you don’t think those in close constant proximity with vulnerable communities pose any threats? What about a ward containing those with auto immune disorders? I would think even the janitors would need to be vaccinated to work those areas. Even before the pandemic. Since a common cold could pose a severe risk.
Also ironically enough it’s actually the unvaccinated that technically relies on the vaccinated for protection against preventable diseases. That’s true of literally every preventable disease we currently vaccinate for. It’s why allowances for medical exemptions are a rule,

find it’s helpful to think of Vaccination as sort of like a giant force field around the community. There will always be a few holes in it (medical exemptions.) And that’s fine. It will still work optimally. Because once the virus enters the body of a vaccinated person, the transmission of said virus effectively stops dead in its tracks. Thereby putting a barrier between the disease (stopped dead by a vaccinated person) and the community at large. But more importantly those who cannot vax for medical reasons. The level of herd immunity required for optimal effectiveness of vaccines has more to do with how infectious a disease is, rather than the disease itself. So the less infectious a disease is, the less amount of the vaccinated is required. The more infectious, the larger the amount required. That’s just how biology works, I’m afraid.

As this is considered a very highly infectious disease, the herd immunity rates required is actually pretty high by default.
So right now we need a strong forcefield with a few holes in it. You follow? But when you have large percentages of people opting out, instead we’re left with chunks of our forcefield missing. Does that make sense? This by default leaves us vulnerable. Think of this it this way. You go out of your way to take a pill with maybe some mild side affects. And my specific actions or rather my purposeful inaction makes that medication you took absolutely moot. So you now have to find another method to address your illness. Including suffering the side affects. Potentially
Would you not be upset at my inaction?

Now I agree that being divisive isn’t helpful. But reacting to it isn’t always helpful either, I’ve found. Even on here, I have found that I need to work on not simply reacting all the time. I’m trying to do better.

Hmm recognising one’s limitations is sometimes a hard pill to swallow. I think it’s beneficial though.

I can only try to explain how the vaccination rates work and what pandemic measures entail. To the best of my very meagre abilities. This is all new territory for me as well. But try not to get worked up by it all, would be my advice. I try to avoid a lot of the news pertaining to the pandemic. Unless it’s pertinent to my living situation. I follow health guidelines, government requirements and consult with my GP if I am really concerned about something. I will admit to using more sanitiser than usual though lol

 

[Quagmire]

***Thread Moved to the Covid-19 Forum***​