using your logic that abraham was a jew would make ishmael and all of hagar's and keturah's children jew too.
they aren't considered jewish.
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Abraham Father of Many Nations
- Thread starter Fool
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using your logic that abraham was a jew would make ishmael and all of hagar's and keturah's children jew too.
they aren't considered jewish.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
Show me the genetic material from a paternal ancestor from 5,000 years ago. It doesn't exist.
Do you know how young genetic dna profiling is?
The same website also says the book also states the following:
techniques and theories of genetics and evolutionary biology
It is believed, on the basis of genetic evidence, that all human beings in existence now descend
from one single man who lived in Africa about 60,000 years ago.
Makes everyone living now a descendant of Noah. So genetically it means absolutely nothing.
Because Abraham, and all his descendants descended from Noah. But the covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was not matter of dna but a matter of Gods Choice.
Ishmael had a blessing NOT a covenant. He was never chosen for any purpose to do with the people or salvation of God and his Messiah, He too had to be circumcised under the promise made to Abraham, his whole household including servants had to be circumcised. But with God it was always about the chosen ones.
Ishmael never chosen.
To be an Israelite you had to be born of Israel the name given to Jacob.
Ishmael like his descendants were not born of Israel and cannot be an Israelite.
The Y DNA of all and every male human has polymorphisms that date back just a few generations to those from our earliest ancestors who lived between 70k to 350k ybp. Reading that article on wiki will not familiarize you with the science. This is why I suggested at least reading the book to begin understanding the genetic studies.
Just so you may understand, we don't compare our DNA to that retrieved from dead Israelites. we compare our DNA to those living today who claim to descend from those dead Israelites such as the Cohanim among the Jews (both Ashkanazi and Sephardim). Then we compare that to the DNA signatures of the Samaritans as well as those in the nation of Judah. This way we can eliminate signatures of non Israelite converts who usually also match the gentile population from which they converted. Thus allowing us to isolate the DNA signatures of ancient Israelites from these communities
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If you look at my name, it is an abbreviation for J2 Haplogroup Y DNA (J2 Hap Y DNA). That is my name because I was a participant in the National Geographic study conducted by Spencer Wells - author of the book and host of the PBS program Journey of Man where I discovered I was a descendant of the Y DNA subhaplogroup J2 . So yes I am intimately aware of when these studies began.
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As I explained earlier Onias IV was the descendant of Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest. He was booted from the temple in Jerusalem and went and established another temple in Leontopolis in Egypt as well as other temples around Egypt to fulfill Isaiah 19. Perhaps you should read Isaiah 19 and see how MP fulfilled biblical prophecy. In any case after the destruction of the temple it is quite reasonable to assume they fled the Roman Empire and set up shop in Mecca given the DNA evidence and fulfillment of prophecy concerning Egypt in Isaiah 19.
Joshua the High Priest - Wikipedia
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RESOLUTION
Active Member
Did you read what I wrote.Apparently, it appears you have not really read my reply.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
Again you are not involved with the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
You cannot make yourself something you are not.
You will have to be more specific which point haven't I addressed?
I have explained how we find Israelite DNA. Also why reasonable people can believe the Koresh are patrilineal descendants of Israelites (specifically Onias IV) and matrilineal descendants of Ishmaelites.
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I don't know what you mean. Are you saying Onias IV was not an Israelite descendant of Jacobs line?
RESOLUTION
Active Member
Oh No! You made the discussion about something other than was actually being discussed.
I replied to what was pertinent at the time of posting. You don't get to make it about something it never was.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
I am saying that being an Israelite is about being born of the line of Isaac and Jacob. Ishmael and his descendants were NOT descended from Jacob who is 'Israel' and the ancestor of the Israelites. There is no discussion about Israelites or DNA which will change that fact or truth.
So your argument is dead in the water when it comes to the descendants of Ishmael regarding being an Israelite.
Ishmael and his descendants are not descendants of Jacob who was named Israel and cannot be an Israelite. DNA does not make us children of God but Gods choice and him choosing Isaac and therefore Jacob does. If you are not in the Jewish Religion or the Christian religion you do not belong to Gods Chosen People because you reject God in rejecting his truth.
I'm not denying an Israelite is a descendant of Israel (Jacob) or his covenant
The Bible in Isaiah 19 says that the Egyptians will be given a savior who will build a temple in Egypt. Did you miss that verse? It says the Egyptians, Assyrians and Israelites will come together. Did you miss that?
History shows us that based on these verses in Isaiah 19, Onias IV constructed a temple in Egypt and began ministering to the Arabs (Egyptians and Assyrians) to fulfill this prophecy expecting this savior to rise from his descendants.
So who was Onias IV? He was an Israelite, the descendant of Joshua the high priest about whom the Bible says:
Bible Gateway Zechariah 3 :: NIV
So this Onias IV was someone who was an Israelite with a covenant and a promise trying to minister to the Arabs in and around Egypt to fulfill Isaiah 19, who had a falling out in Jerusalem and whose line seems to disappear from history when the temple was destroyed in the days of Jesus.
Then 390 years later after the temple is destroyed (as Daniel predicts) a man arose under the conditions described by Isaiah 19 ministering to the Arabs at a temple on the border of Egypt with the DNA of a Cohanim and does things the Bible says he would, as we would expect Onias' descendants to be doing. However all you can think about is that he is an Ishmaelite who rose up filthy like a branch burning in the fire of paganism (among the Ishmaelite Arabs) even though the Bible tells us he would be the descendant of Onias/ Joshua and come as a thief in the night, wearing filthy clothes burning like a brand in the fire of paganism.
So it seems, you don't want to consider the possibility that gentiles were grafted to these Israelites in 390 years, despite considerable reasonable evidence that this is what happened. Now why don't you show me the verse from the Quran which says MP is a patrilineal descendant of Ishmael?
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The discussion is about Abraham being the father of many nations. You are obviously trying to make it sound like the promise was to make these nations spiritually the children of Abraham. I think the promise was both of a physical and spiritual nature . Now we can see that Israelite DNA has spread in many nations and with it a spiritual change is also gradually coming
I don't understand why sometimes religious Christians are itching to see wars and all this doom and gloom. Why can't they be happy that Israel has returned to its ancestral land and may play a constructive role as a light to all nations?
I think that with some of these recent discoveries by scientists in recent years there is hope Islam could experience wholesale reform and people may begin to discard the irrational Umayyad interpretations and understand MP in a rational peaceful way in the context of the Bible. This may even lead to improved cooperation between the Muslim world and Israel.
I think that with some of these recent discoveries by scientists in recent years there is hope Islam could experience wholesale reform and people may begin to discard the irrational Umayyad interpretations and understand MP in a rational peaceful way in the context of the Bible. This may even lead to improved cooperation between the Muslim world and Israel.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
Therein lies the problem, the way you perceive the truth of God in his Prophets teachings.
You see the truth shows that those who knew /know God are spiritually alive to the presence of God in the physical and spiritual by the power of Gods Holy Spirit in them.
People are made Gods people by Gods choice. It is about who he chose, why he chose them and what he has done through them.
As God is putting an end to the physical human flesh then only the Spiritually new body and the soul will live on.
I don't have to say a lot because these truths are known by the wisest men who know God.
The Physical DNA does not play any part in the people God chose. Nothing relies on anything man does, knows or understands. Everything relies solely on God and his will and choice for men.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
Therein again lies the problem ... your understanding.
Christ is the light of the world... He has shown us who God really is, and what God wants for all mankind.
But most importantly he shows that Gods will has always been about mankind having the best. Which means God first in all things and loving God and others.
Why does the world need Israel for a light when they have the promised light of the Messiah?
Israel are part of the pathway in which God revealed the Light of the World, Jesus Christ from amongst them.
We know Christ put God first and loved God with his whole being. He was the example for all.
Muslims have no part in Gods truth. Simple but true. Israel will never be one with Muslims because they are not worshipping the same God. They do not have anything in common. Not even an common ancestor where it counts. Gods people love truth and to love truth you have to Obey the true God and the True Prophets.
What I find most significant is you do not understand that at the end it will be God himself who acts and those who rise up against God, his people or Jerusalem will fall.
IMO Brahman = Abraham is the father of many nations. ghaggar(hagar) was supposedly a tributary of Sarasvatti(Sara). Hagar is associated with the zimzam water.
These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.
These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.
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israel is not a person by blood, or familialism. God is not a respecter of persons, any person. its a person who acts a certain way, like jacob.
there is a new jerusalem, a new nation, a new heaven and a new earth. people will be divided to the left or to the right. personally i want to be in the middle with God. some will awake to everlasting life and others to everlasting guilt.
being a jew, israelite, moslem, christian, buddhist, atheist, satanist won't save you. what will save you is how you behave toward self and others.
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I guess that could create an interesting metaphorical interpretation of the Bible. Although it seems like a convenient ploy to steal someone's inheritance. It doesn't sound wise at all.
In the Bible we consistently see how the Hebrew word Zara strong 2233 is translated as seed and used to describe a biological child. We also see that the seed or descendants of Jacob were organized by patrilineal descent. The king was by the paternal line of descent. Similarly the priesthood was transmitted thru patrilineal descent.
Strong's Hebrew: 2233. זָ֫רַע (zera) -- a sowing, seed, offspring
So good luck on your mission. there appears to be a pretty strong pattern on how this word is being used in the Bible. So, if an author of any book were to suddenly change how some word was used I think that could be considered stupidity and deception. Personally, I have no need to worship a stupid deceiver even if he or she or it were a real god. So please keep your so called wise men and their wise god to yourself. To me they would be nothing more than charlatans trying to steal what was promised to Israel, Judah and Aaron and to their Zara. Similarly I don't see how this promise could be given to Ismael's descendants or anyone else.
Personally, I would be an atheist if I hadn't read Isaiah 19,44, Matt 24, Dan 8-12 and known that archaeological evidence and history suggested these things happened in the age of Muhammad the prophet (MP).
So I read the Bible and realized that these things were meant to happen when a priestly savior described in Isaiah 19 and Zech 3 as someone filthy who would be saved from the fire of paganism. To me he was neither a metaphorical Israelite nor an Ishmaelite. He had to be the descendant of Joshua.
So I began digging around to see what happened to the priestly line. It turned out Onias IV had a falling out with the Hasmoneans and went off building temples in and around Egypt to minister to non Jews (Arabs / Assyrians and Egyptians). Then his line falls off the historical map after the Romans destroyed the temple.
So it seemed reasonable to think that when the things Isaiah 19 spoke about came true and someone rose up on the border of Egypt ministering to these people he was a descendant of Onias IV. However, the Quran said the Ishmaelite NATION had a promise and most westerners such as yourself laughed at the idea that the Koresh could be somehow descendants of Abraham leave alone Israelites. Most western historians were of the view that the Koresh were too primitive to be related to the seed of Abraham. Most conjectured they were Africans and some distant borderline Asians mixed with Africans. This was the prevailing wisdom of the wise men who had brain washed people such as yourself who claim MP wasn't a descendant of Abraham.
Well it turned out that in the 90s geneticists discovered a way to identify our patrilineal lines. These tests very quickly began to show a close relationship between the Jewish priesthood and Koresh. So now we know that the Koresh are descendants of Abraham too.
So I think for a secular minded person there is little question who was Muhammad and how closely related he and his tribe are to Abraham- or ancestors of the Cohanim. I think reasonable people can look at this evidence and make up their own mind
IMO it's a religious myth that survived only because it was adopted as part of a national belief adopted by the Roman empire. And adopted by the Ottoman empire who also supported the religious myth.
I suppose some will claim it providence but I suspect it's more likely happenstance. It'd be an interesting subject to look into, monotheism and empire building.
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