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Abrahamic God Creates...

MattersOfTheHeart

Active Member
The ideas in question is as follows:


  1. Can a perfect God that is perfect in every way, create something, create anything as perfect as God?
    Logic says, it can't be done, that it is not logically possible.
    If said creation can not be as perfect as God, how near or far will it be from God's perfectness?
  2. Doesn't this imply that if we accept this God to exist, in some cases worship this God, that we must accept the idea that suffering must exist to some extent?
It is my contention that, God alone and in entirety does not and can not suffer. However, the moment something sentient is created, it must suffer because it is not God and therefor not privy to perfection.


None of this means, life free of suffering can't become possible to some degree, but that is a different topic.
 
Hi again Matters,

If one might know that, that exists, one may also be able to discern that from the non-existing.

best,
swampy
 

MattersOfTheHeart

Active Member
If at times god is not pleased as the bible states,that is suffering.
That is our projection of what suffering means to us, onto God. We can never know if God is suffering or not, in the same we we suffer.
I understand your point, but it is kind of like saying:
"A parent tells a child to clean his room, expecting full well the room is to be cleaned. Then goes in the room later to find it a mess. Yes the parent is disappointed, but hardly suffering, as we understand suffering."
 

payak

Active Member
That is our projection of what suffering means to us, onto God. We can never know if God is suffering or not, in the same we we suffer.
I understand your point, but it is kind of like saying:
"A parent tells a child to clean his room, expecting full well the room is to be cleaned. Then goes in the room later to find it a mess. Yes the parent is disappointed, but hardly suffering, as we understand suffering."

So when he flooded the earth and killed everyone in it, that was not because he was suffering,he was just expressing his disappointment for his children.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Can a perfect God that is perfect in every way, create something, create anything as perfect as God?
Of course.

Logic says, it can't be done, that it is not logically possible.
No, logic dictates that a being that is perfect in every way would necessarily have to be able to create perfect copy of itself, as well. Otherwise it would not be perfect in every way as you state.

If said creation can not be as perfect as God, how near or far will it be from God's perfectness?
Well, it can be as perfect as God, but if God creates something less perfect then itself, I would assume the difference between the two would be totally and completely up to God. Otherwise... again... it would not be perfect in every way.

Doesn't this imply that if we accept this God to exist, in some cases worship this God, that we must accept the idea that suffering must exist to some extent?
What it implies is that suffering was intended and serves some perfect purpose.

It is my contention that, God alone and in entirety does not and can not suffer.
This is to assume that 'perfect' necessarily excludes suffering. There is no reason to assume that, and really, if the being is perfect in every way it MUST be able to suffer perfectly, as well.

However, the moment something sentient is created, it must suffer because it is not God and therefor not privy to perfection.
Again, this should be completely up to God.

None of this means, life free of suffering can't become possible to some degree, but that is a different topic.
Indeed it is.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
The ideas in question is as follows:


  1. Can a perfect God that is perfect in every way, create something, create anything as perfect as God?
    Logic says, it can't be done, that it is not logically possible.
    If said creation can not be as perfect as God, how near or far will it be from God's perfectness?
  2. Doesn't this imply that if we accept this God to exist, in some cases worship this God, that we must accept the idea that suffering must exist to some extent?
It is my contention that, God alone and in entirety does not and can not suffer. However, the moment something sentient is created, it must suffer because it is not God and therefor not privy to perfection.


None of this means, life free of suffering can't become possible to some degree, but that is a different topic.

I think you need to define perfection.

What exactly is perfection in your view?
 

MattersOfTheHeart

Active Member
Of course.

No, logic dictates that a being that is perfect in every way would necessarily have to be able to create perfect copy of itself, as well. Otherwise it would not be perfect in every way as you state.
The fallacy here is to assume God can create anything. Most don't hold God responsible for creating illogical possibilities, like the square circle, or in this case an exact duplicate of God. If you don't understand why I say that, than just ask. There is plenty of reason to suggest it is not possible, therefor God is not on the hook for being able to make it, therefor doesn't make God any less perfect.
 

MattersOfTheHeart

Active Member
Without flaws how would you know perfection,
Anything other than God must be imperfect, because it is not God. God is the only thing perfect. That is how the logic follows.

What bothers me about many responses throughout this board, is the unwillingness to engage to find out why a person says the things they do, but rather balks just to balk it seems.
I mean I don't care if ultimately no one understands me, or ends up agreeing with me, however to not fully understand my position and start bashing seems childish.
 

MattersOfTheHeart

Active Member
Proceed ...
If a being, from everlasting to everlasting, that has no beginning or end, and is alone in this unique situation, creates something, imagines something, we can analyze the potential place and value of that "something" created. When we do analyze it, we find the follow results at minimum.

1)Being a perfect God, implies there can be no other as equal. Otherwise, God is not uniquely, exclusively perfect. The justification for this statement is in that anything God creates is at best a division of God, an aspect of God, the will of God.

2)In order to create another God identical to THE God, the first God would have to become the second God, otherwise the second God would not be identical. The second God would occupy a different space/existence, etc... Not identical, thus there is no logical way for God to duplicate himself exactly, because it will always be something different than the original.

As soon as this logic becomes the accepted basis of discussion, the inclusion of suffering and other topics can have a framework that allows God to still be Tri-Omni, and the argument of "Problem Of Evil" goes away.

I invite you or anyone to explain why this doesn't hold up, without emotional appeal as the meat of the reply.

Opponents may then say, "Well then, God should have never created anything, if he can't do it without his creation suffering".
They may not however say, that God is not Omni-benevoent, since we see suffering simply becomes possible as soon as God creates.

The opponent will then feel obliged to point out, that maybe God can't create something perfect, but surely can create a possible existence with suffering minimized. Right?

The novice would reply, God gave man free will. Which accounts for suffering(I personally find that reply repulsive and weak, showing the presenter as out of replies).

So let's avoid that latter exchange, and volley something fresh back and forth.

The truth is, we do not know the degree to which something God creates deviates from being God, how far or near it is to the nature of God, or what other ramifications arise, as this "created" thing must occupy some space, effecting something beyond which we can't understand.
If this is the case, it becomes futile for the opponent to presume God can actualize a much better place, and is malevolent for choosing a deliberate excessively suffer filled place to have authored. We, are simply setting up Strawmen to make that claim.
 

MattersOfTheHeart

Active Member
I can demonstrate why it is not logically possible, so therefor the term logic is perfectly reasonable.
Great post by the way :areyoucra

Proceed ...

If a being, from everlasting to everlasting, that has no beginning or end, and is alone in this unique situation, creates something, imagines something, we can analyze the potential place and value of that "something" created. When we do analyze it, we find the follow results at minimum.

1)Being a perfect God, implies there can be no other as equal. Otherwise, God is not uniquely, exclusively perfect. The justification for this statement is in that anything God creates is at best a division of God, an aspect of God, the will of God.

2)In order to create another God identical to THE God, the first God would have to become the second God, otherwise the second God would not be identical. The second God would occupy a different space/existence, etc... Not identical, thus there is no logical way for God to duplicate himself exactly, because it will always be something different than the original.

As soon as this logic becomes the accepted basis of discussion, the inclusion of suffering and other topics can have a framework that allows God to still be Tri-Omni, and the argument of "Problem Of Evil" goes away.

I invite you or anyone to explain why this doesn't hold up, without emotional appeal as the meat of the reply.

Opponents may then say, "Well then, God should have never created anything, if he can't do it without his creation suffering".
They may not however say, that God is not Omni-benevoent, since we see suffering simply becomes possible as soon as God creates.

The opponent will then feel obliged to point out, that maybe God can't create something perfect, but surely can create a possible existence with suffering minimized. Right?

The novice would reply, God gave man free will. Which accounts for suffering(I personally find that reply repulsive and weak, showing the presenter as out of replies).

So let's avoid that latter exchange, and volley something fresh back and forth.

The truth is, we do not know the degree to which something God creates deviates from being God, how far or near it is to the nature of God, or what other ramifications arise, as this "created" thing must occupy some space, effecting something beyond which we can't understand.
If this is the case, it becomes futile for the opponent to presume God can actualize a much better place, and is malevolent for choosing a deliberate excessively suffer filled place to have authored. We, are simply setting up Strawmen to make that claim.
Interesting. Just re-read this exchange, and I feel it still holds very well. I am disappointed no one thought better of my position, as I still think it is rather fresh :)
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
1)Being a perfect God, implies there can be no other as equal. Otherwise, God is not uniquely, exclusively perfect.
Being a "perfect God" has nothing to do with being an "uniquely, exclusively perfect" god. You can't seem to get past your first point without falling on your face. :facepalm:
 
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