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Abrahamic Montheists: Will God Eventually Lead All People to Heaven?
- Thread starter MSizer
- Start date
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
There simply is not a way to conclude God will do such a thing by viewing the bible only. Impossible. Well I suppose humans are humans and can twist anything, but if you read the book objectively, there is no way to conclude God will do that.
Really and truly, it comes down to what an individual thinks about the bible. If they trust the bible, and the bible alone, they should not be able to conclude what you are asking. If they trust the bible and other sources as God inspired, than anything is possible.
Really and truly, it comes down to what an individual thinks about the bible. If they trust the bible, and the bible alone, they should not be able to conclude what you are asking. If they trust the bible and other sources as God inspired, than anything is possible.
Atruthseeker
Active Member
Ditto
Muffled
Jesus in me
There is only one way to Heaven and it has already been revealed to anyone who has eyes to see.
I do not agree. There are some that just love evil and will never change. However that doesn't mean that it is impossible, just unlikely.
My church is heavily Calvinistic. It believes there are just some that are never destined to return to God.
PS: If yo are wondering where you fit in, there have been some terrible scoundrels who found their way back to God.
MSizer
MSizer
Thanks for the advice, but I couldn't be any stronger a disbeliever. But I appreciate the good intention. I sold my soul the fallen way long ago, and I'm perfectly happy with it.
What do you think MSizer, I am genuinely interested? Have you discussed your theology/philosophy in any other thread, if so I would be itnerested to know your reasoning.
jtartar
Well-Known Member
The idea that God will someday accept all into His graces is called Universalism or Apocatastasis. This concept is completely false. If this were true there would have been no reason for Jesus to come to earth to give his life for sinners. Jesus came to earth to take sin away from all mankind who have faith in him, John 1:29, Matt 20:28, Gal 2:15,16, 3:10-13, Eph 1:7, Heb 10:12-18, Acts 13:38,39.
Notice that Jesus told his disciples during the Sermon on the Mount, that Few would find the right way, , Matt 7:13,14,21-23,also Jesus said the same thing at Luke 13:23,24.
The purpose of God is to make this earth a paradise. That cannot be accomplished as long as there are many people who like wars, crime, immorality, false worship. These will be removed from the earth, Prov 2:21,22, 11:7 Ps 9:5,37:9-11,28,29,31,34,38, Ps 92:7, Rev 20:15, 21:8.
MSizer
MSizer
What do you think MSizer, I am genuinely interested? Have you discussed your theology/philosophy in any other thread, if so I would be itnerested to know your reasoning.
Sure, I'm happy to share, but I'm not sure what you're asking exactly. Are you asking why I'm an atheist? Whether I believe we'll all go to god?
Certainly not the latter. I don't believe in god, nor any form of life after our current earthly one. I'm an atheist because i can't draw any other conclusion based on what I know and see around me. I've never seen/heard/felt/smelled/tasted or sensed in any way any form of supernatural being, superior nor peer. I simply don't think any of the scriptures make any sense. Theology seems to me to be the art of convincing oneself and others that the holes in their mythology are acceptable and that faith is a virtue (while I disagree).
I know that all sounds a little harsh, but it's how I see things.
I hope that answers your question. Thanks for the interest. If I didn't answer what you were looking for, please feel free to ask.
M.
Response: The question itself is very conflicting. If someone separates themself from God but at the same time say that God will lead all people to him, then technically, they are not separated from God. Perhaps my definition of separating from God is different from what you are defining it as. So what do you mean by "separate him/herself from God"?
MSizer
MSizer
Commiting sin.
Response: O.K. Well, in islam, if one repents and believes in Allah (swt) and does good deeds after committing a sin, then and only then does Allah (swt) give guidance to them.
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
You seem to always ask good questions MSizer. Here's my thoughts (some of them).
Being within God's presence is a very demanding thing. To be where he is, you have to be able to abide by the same principles as him. Essentially, you have to become like him. So yes, if we can all become like God, we can all make it back into his presence and dwell with him. That is what the Gospel is about, helping us become like God. We cannot do it without the help of God. Yet at the same time, he cannot force us to change and progress. So the key is to never stop progressing. When we're talking about eternity, it doesn't really matter how fast we progress. What matters is what direction we are going. We don't have to be perfect for now, we just need to be pliable and willing to try. When we are willing to try, we become clay in the hands of the potter, silver in the hands of the refiner, etc. That is what this life is all about.
Being within God's presence is a very demanding thing. To be where he is, you have to be able to abide by the same principles as him. Essentially, you have to become like him. So yes, if we can all become like God, we can all make it back into his presence and dwell with him. That is what the Gospel is about, helping us become like God. We cannot do it without the help of God. Yet at the same time, he cannot force us to change and progress. So the key is to never stop progressing. When we're talking about eternity, it doesn't really matter how fast we progress. What matters is what direction we are going. We don't have to be perfect for now, we just need to be pliable and willing to try. When we are willing to try, we become clay in the hands of the potter, silver in the hands of the refiner, etc. That is what this life is all about.
MY COMMENTS: An honest question deserves an honest answer. Concerning the origin of the universe, commonoly called the "Big Bang" theory, science concedes there is a Causer or Beginner outside the universe, of such power and magnitude that he must be called "God."
If you want to know more about it, go to www.reasons.org.
As for the Scriptures not making sense, have you ever seen an outline of God's plan of redemption in the Bible?
It starts with creation, man being made in the image of God (including you), capable of rational thought; Adam's disobedience with the resultant death, which is passed on to all their offspring (including you). God wasn't surprised, and in his love planned for a redeemer to come through a special people, Israel. They grew to a large nation and had to be rescued from Egypt. They were promised the land we call Palestine, today. They eventually conquered the land, and being God's chosen people they were to witness to the other nations (Gentiles) about the one true God.
But, they eventually fell into gross idolatry and other sins and God used other nations to conquer them and scatter them to other nations.
He promised them that a deliverer would come, a Messiah, to establish again the kingdom of David. All this being in the Old Testament.
Many prophecies were written by their special leaders pointing out that their Messiah must first come as a humble servant, preaching "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." The kingdom could have been established then, but the people rejected their Messiah Jesus and his offer of the kingdom, having him crucified.
This was no surprise to God, for through the death and resurrection of Jesus, the sins of the world have been taken away, which is God's ultimate plan.
Not all Israelites rejected Christ Jesus, there was a remnant of believers, disciples, who saw and heard Jesus after his resurrection, and saw him ascend.
Before his resurrection, they were fearful, afraid disciples, but after seeing him roused, they were endued with special power to spred the good news.
This is recorded in the Gospels and the Acts.
In my opinion, he will come again, as he promised, to defeat his enemies, and rescue his people, righteous Israel, and establish the Messianic Kingdom on earth, which is to last one thousand years.
Jesus foretold this in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Other epistles speak of this as well as the book of Revelation.
After the millennium (1000 yrs), all who have died and not been raised must be resurrected to stand before Christ on his great white throne to be judged.
Christ will be avenged and all whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
God also has a plan for the church/body of Christ, calling out an Israelite named Saul, who was zealous for the Jewish religion, openly persecuting those early Christians. Saul was struck down by the light and power of Jesus, was blinded, led to Damascus, ate nor drank nothing for three days, then his sight restored through another Christian, Annanias.
Saul was then called Paul and he became a strong witness that Jesus of Nazereth was, indeed, the Christ, the promised one. He witnessed to the Jews and to the Gentiles, preaching Christ and him crucified, and risen.
God reveals mysteries to Paul that Christians are in the body of Christ, called for service to witness here on the earth, and whose future is in the heavens, to witness to principalities and powers in the heavenlies.
Specifically, Paul's epistles are for the church/body of Christ.
IMO, At the end of the ages, God will have put all enemies "under the feet" of Christ Jesus, and then "every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:10, 11.
The last enemy, death, will be abolished, and the dead will be made alive.
With all enemies subjected to Christ, both in the heavens and on earth, Christ will be giving up the kingdom to his God and Father, that God may be All in all.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28.
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
I don't think so... Science really has nothing to say about God.
This subject is being hotly debated on another forum I participate on. Mormonism teaches that the vast majority of people will ultimately go to Heaven. Only a very small number will not. Those who will repent of their sins and accept Christ's Atonement on their behalf will not have to be punished for their sins, but those who refuse to do so will have to suffer a punishment commensurate with their sins before they enter Heaven. Of course, we believe that there will be a period of time after a person dies but before he is resurrected when the playing field will be leveled, so to speak, and those who have not had the opportunity to hear the gospel during their lifetimes will get that chance.
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
What forum is that?
I think that it's important to point out that not everyone who "goes to heaven" will regain God's presence.
I believe all people will end up with God...
I believe that some people experience this as bliss, others as torment...
Whether the condition of those who are tormented by the unadulterated love of God can be changed, I do not know...
I believe that some people experience this as bliss, others as torment...
Whether the condition of those who are tormented by the unadulterated love of God can be changed, I do not know...
Muffled
Jesus in me
That appears to be extra-biblical to me. What is the source of those Mormon teachings? The teachings of men aren't worth much on this subject.
I have no idea where this comes from. Obviosly it makes no sense for a person under punishment to escape to Heaven during their punishment. However after the punishment has been completed there is still no guarantee that the person will repent. There is a great deal of recivitism as far as I can see.
Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;
There doesn't appear to be any offering of good news in this.
Muffled
Jesus in me
It seems as though something like that ought to be in the Qu'ran but I don't remember it. IMO the Islamic religion is not equivalent to Islam.
It is my experience that God guides people who will listen whether they have repented or not. It is simply that God's guidance falls on deaf ears for the unrepentant.