Abrahamic only: What is this all about?

[David1967]

I came across this and other disturbing videos on YouTube showing some religious Jews in Israel spitting on Christian worshipers. Some videos show them being physically attacked. In other videos Netanyahu has denounced this behavior. Why would this group of people be spitting on other folks?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Because they're disgusting jerks?

The bell curve is ubiquitous, and being a Jew does not immunize one against vile bigotry.

 

[dybmh]

Why would this group of people be spitting on other folks?

I didn't watch the entire video. But I watched the video footage of the spitting. Please. Did they spit ON OTHER FOLKS? No. They spit on the ground.

If we can agree to this detail, then pperhaps we can have a dicussion reagarding why it's happened and what is the root of it.

If we cannot agree on the simple facts of what happpened, then there's no reason to discuss it. If I am seeing them spitting on the ground, and you are seeing them spitting on other folks, then we are not discussing the same event.

 

[dybmh]

Because they're disgusting jerks?

The bell curve is ubiquitous, and being a Jew does not immunize one against vile bigotry.

From watching the video, they did not spit ON anyone. Whether or not it's bigotry depends on the facts not a knee-jerk reaction.

And the accusations against them could be your own bigotry if you did not watch the video,and instead, just prejudged based on your own personal anti-orthodox beliefs.

 

[David1967]

Because they're disgusting jerks?

The bell curve is ubiquitous, and being a Jew does not immunize one against vile bigotry.

I agree with you on both points. And I do understand that these people don't represent the Jewish people. Hopefully this behavior is only from a very small minority. I was very surprised and saddened when I saw this. I personally cannot imagine spitting on (or near as @dybmh pointed out) someone of a different faith.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And the accusations against them could be your own bigotry if you did not watch the video,and instead, just prejudged based on your own personal anti-orthodox beliefs.

And "could be" could be a cowardly insinuation, but we can get back to that in a bit.

As to the issue raised, see Times of Israel > 5 arrested for spitting at Christians in Jerusalem; police minister: it's not criminal

Police on Wednesday arrested five Orthodox Jews on suspicion of spitting at Christian worshippers in the Old City of Jerusalem, amid a rise in incidents targeting priests and pilgrims in the capital.​

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At the same time, National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir said in an interview: “I still think spitting at Christians is not a criminal case. I think we need to act on it through instruction and education. Not everything justifies an arrest.”​

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Speaking to Army Radio, the minister in charge of police added: “It is deserving of every condemnation. It should be stopped. I asked Rabbi Dov Lior, he said it was immoral and wrong. We’re against it. But let’s stop slandering Israel. We’re all brothers, we’re all of the same people.”​

​

Before entering politics, Ben Gvir in the past justified spitting toward Christians as “an ancient Jewish custom.”​

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In an incident that was widely condemned, several people, including children, were filmed on Monday spitting at Christian pilgrims.​

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Police said one of those arrested was among those filmed spitting on Monday.​

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The other four, including a minor, were seen and filmed spitting at Christian worshipers in fresh incidents during an Orthodox procession through the Old City on Wednesday and arrested at the scene.​

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Police said they intended to charge them with assault. Hebrew media noted that in the past there have been difficulties convicting those who spit because the act does not meet the criteria of violence for assault. However, Jerusalem police Chief Superintendent Assaf Harel told Army Radio that “spitting on somebody is certainly considered to be assault.” Harel said there had been a rise in attacks on Christians in the city of late, with 17 incidents reported in the past six months.​

So good job channelling Ben Gvir who is, for me, an exemplar of vile bigotry.

Finally, as for your speculations concerning my own bigotry, I have (much loved) Orthodox Jews in my family, none of whom would condone, much less engage in, such a disgusting display.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I agree with you on both points. And I do understand that these people don't represent the Jewish people. Hopefully this behavior is only from a very small minority. I was very surprised and saddened when I saw this. I personally cannot imagine spitting on (or near as @dybmh pointed out) someone of a different faith.

Nor can I imagine an RF member rushing to white-wash such actions, but ...

 

[David1967]

I didn't watch the entire video. But I watched the video footage of the spitting. Please. Did they spit ON OTHER FOLKS? No. They spit on the ground.

If we can agree to this detail, then pperhaps we can have a dicussion reagarding why it's happened and what is the root of it.

If we cannot agree on the simple facts of what happpened, then there's no reason to discuss it. If I am seeing them spitting on the ground, and you are seeing them spitting on other folks, then we are not discussing the same event.

Spitting on, or spitting at, or spitting on the ground at their feet. Surely you'd agree that none of those is very nice.

 

[dybmh]

And "could be" could be a cowardly insinuation, but we can get back to that in a bit.

It's not cowardly, it's honest. If I wass being a coward, I wouldn't say anything and suck up to you instead. The absolute truth is, I don't know what's happening in your heart and mind. It could be you have a great deal of anti-orthodox bigotry in your heart and mind. I don't know. Your actions on the forum, what you choose to post and how you post it are actions that match anti-orthodox bigotry.

as for your speculations concerning my own bigotry, I have (much loved) Orthodox Jews in my family

Love for the individual is irrelevant to bigotry. Classic example: White racist person: "I have a few black friends.."

As to the issue raised

The issue raised is below:

if you did not watch the video,

If you did not watch the video, then the accusation: "they're disgusting jerks" is prejudiced at the very least.

suspicion of spitting at Christian worshippers

Keyword: suspicion.

Keyword: "at" in contrast to "on"

Conclusion: no one was spat ON.

Further conclusion: You did not watch the video.

 

[dybmh]

Nor can I imagine an RF member rushing to white-wash such actions, but ...

First we must agree on the details. I am not white washing anything.

 

[dybmh]

Spitting on, or spitting at, or spitting on the ground at their feet. Surely you'd agree that none of those is very nice.

I need confirmation that you have watched the video and can distinguish the difference between all three of these.

In addition to correcting your previous statement about SPITTING ON FOLKS, confirmation that you watched the video is to describe what the Christians were doing.

I agree with you on both points. And I do understand that these people don't represent the Jewish people. Hopefully this behavior is only from a very small minority. I was very surprised and saddened when I saw this. I personally cannot imagine spitting on (or near as @dybmh pointed out) someone of a different faith.

First we need to agree on what happened. Then we can work on your imagination openess to seeing different persepctives outside your own. If you are unable to do that, then, this thread will be nothing more than a hate fest where those evil religious Jews are "imagined" in a particular way.

Don't worry, it's normal and natural to have that reaction. I don't blame you or anyone, especially Christians, for holding that position. But, there's no reason to discuss it, if the purpose of the thread is to confirm one's own bias.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Spitting on, or spitting at, or spitting on the ground at their feet. Surely you'd agree that none of those is very nice.

These people are the Haredim, sometimes referred to as Ultra Orthodox. They believe that their extreme form of Judaism is the only real Judaism. They are highly intolerant of anyone else. For example, they throw rocks at little Modern Orthodox girls because they don't think they are modest enough. It is their goal to annex the Palestinian territories and turn Israel into a theocracy where all would be governed by their own extreme version of Jewish law. For example, Christianity would not be allowed, and all Christian churches would be destroyed.

***mod edit***

 

[David1967]

I need confirmation that you have watched the video and can distinguish the difference between all three of these.

In addition to correcting your previous statement about SPITTING ON FOLKS, confirmation that you watched the video is to describe what the Christians were doing.



First we need to agree on what happened. Then we can work on your imagination openess to seeing different persepctives outside your own. If you are unable to do that, then, this thread will be nothing more than a hate fest where those evil religious Jews are "imagined" in a particular way.

Don't worry, it's normal and natural to have that reaction. I don't blame you or anyone, especially Christians, for holding that position. But, there's no reason to discuss it, if the purpose of the thread is to confirm one's own bias.

Where in the world would you get the idea that I don't like Jews. Good grief. I was simply asking about what group of people in Israel. And if you really need, I can provide video of this same group doing more than spitting on, toward, etc. There is also video of them physically assaulting priests on the street, and desecrating Christian graveyards in Israel. I have no bias against any particular religion and accusing me of such based on my opening post is disingenuous to say the least. I could care less what religion a person is unless they use it as a basis to be mean to others.

 

[dybmh]

Where in the world would you get the idea that I don't like Jews.

I didn't say that.

I agree with you on both points.

If you agree with Jay, without considering what actually happened AND you are unable or unwilling to be open to a point of view that you have not come up with on your own, then...

this thread will be nothing more than a hate fest where those evil religious Jews are "imagined" in a particular way.

That ^^ is what I said. I didn't say YOU were anything. I'm trying to determine if you are able to and willing to consider the facts.

And if you really need, I can provide video of this same group doing more than spitting on, toward, etc. There is also video of them physically assaulting priests on the street, and desecrating Christian graveyards in Israel.

Ah. So there is more to your judgement of "disgusting jerks" than what you posted. The ones in the video are being grouped together with allegations of physical assault, and desecrating graveyards. The ones who spit on the ground in front of the Christians, showing their disgust, are assumed to have the same mindset and attitude as someone who is physcally assaulting someone.

Why would this group of people be spitting on other folks?

It seems to me, you're not asking a question. You have already developed the opinion, just like @Jayhawker Soule. That's prejudice. And neither of you seem to care about what actually happened or looking at both sides of the issue to produce an informed conclusion. That's typical.

There is also video of them

Them? Who's "them" David? What group is this that assaults priests? Everyone who spits on the ground with disgust is a violent criminal?

Yes! Bring these videos. Let's see if there is actual proof of this. Let's see who this person is. Who is the "them" you are referring to?

I have no bias against any particular religion and accusing me of such based on my opening post is disingenuous to say the least

I didn't accuse you. What I wrote is not based on the opening post. It's your agreement with Jay, without looking at what is happpening in the video.

I could care less what religion a person is unless they use it as a basis to be mean to others.

Then why is the question about the what the Christians are doing being ignored?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Them? Who's "them" David? What group is this that assaults priests? Everyone who spits on the ground with disgust is a violent criminal?

Oh, my! Meanwhile ...

ADL Urges Israeli Chief Rabbinate to denounce Ultra-Orthodox Practice of Spitting at Christians​

Published almost a dozen years ago, it states in part ...

"This repulsive practice is a hateful act of persecution against another faith group and a desecration of God's name according to Jewish law," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "This display of hate and bigotry has no place in Israel and is inimical to Jewish values of treating all people with respect and kindness."​

And early this month, Netanyahu-friendly Israel Hayom wrote

PM vows to protect Christians after spitting incident in Jerusalem's Old City​

"I strongly condemn any attempt to intimidate worshippers, and I am committed to taking immediate and decisive action against it," Netanyahu says after video emerges of Jews accosting pilgrims. Incident was exacerbated after one controversial figure said it was "a tradition" to spit at priests.​

In a shocking incident that has sparked widespread condemnation, a group of Haredi Jews accosted Christian pilgrims near the Lions' Gate in Jerusalem while repeatedly spitting. The footage has ignited a political firestorm, with leaders from across the political spectrum expressing outrage over the act.​

Apparently you are off that spectrum.

 

[dybmh]

I went looking for myself to see what @David1967 is talking about.

I found something from 2021. The article reports that there is usually a fight where both parties are at fault. Yes, the article says it begins with the Israeli spitting on the ground or there is an exchange of harsh words.

But. What's important is the bias. The assumption of fault is oon the Israeli. It's always assumed to be the Israeli's fault. This is natural and normal for Christians, but that doesn't make it right.

If one looks at the video that is posted, it appears to be security cam footage based on the quality and the camera angle. But. We don't get to see the beginning of the video. We don't know what started it, or who started it. Why was the beginning cropped out?

If we watch the video, the Israeli's attempt to walk away several times. The priests chase them and attack FROM BEHIND. Of course, no one would expect this from a priest if they are Christian. The Christian is suppposed to turn the other cheek. And the "evil religious Jew" is always the aggressor. I mean... they don't believe in Christ, they're demon possesed according to Christianity. Not that everyone believes it, but, it's true!

Here's the picture so that there is no doubt, and those who are anti-orthodox cannot deny it.

Video of assault on Armenian priests by Orthodox Jews goes viral, shedding light on scuffles between Christians, Jews in Old City

Some 200 Jewish Israelis march in solidarity with Armenian community, apologize on behalf of attackers

allisrael.com

 

[David1967]

Then why is the question about the what the Christians are doing being ignored?

Ok, fair enough. What were the Christians doing that they deserved to be spat at, on, or at their feet? Perhaps you have some information that I don't.

 

[dybmh]

Apparently you are off that spectrum.

Nah. You're ignoring details as usual. We can't discuss it if you refuse to look at the facts. Your anti-orthodox attitude and prejudice is well documented on this forum.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Nah. You're ignoring details as usual.

My bad ...

 

[dybmh]

Ok, fair enough. What were the Christians doing that they deserved to be spat at, on, or at their feet? Perhaps you have some information that I don't.

I asked YOU to describe what YOU saw in the video. I also asked YOU if the video has anyone spitting ON OTHER FOLKS.

The point is: Did you watch the video? What did you see? What are the details from multiple perspectives?