Abrahamics only: How can he be the messiah?

[dantech]

I find that what is often being done by many is try to reshape the meaning of prophecies, for it to accommodate what happened rather than what was predicted.

 

[savagewind]

I find that what is often being done by many is try to reshape the meaning of prophecies, for it to accommodate what happened rather than what was predicted.

Isn't that what you are doing? Are you not reshaping it to your own understanding so that it does NOT fit?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

how is it possible for him to be the messiah, when he not did not accomplish most of the prophecies?

1)He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)

2)He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)

3)He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)

4) He must be the one responsible for the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)

Most of the Prophecies that you are refering to is not related to Messiah. Even Jesus did not claim these.
For example, you mentioned Isaiah 2:4 ;

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

Now Jesus Himslef said:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34


But it was Baha'u'llah who said:


"They must put away the weapons of war, and turn to the instruments of universal reconstruction. Should one king rise up against another, all the other kings must arise to deter him. Arms and armaments will, then, be no more needed beyond that which is necessary to insure the internal security of their respective countries. " Bahá'í Reference Library - Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Pages 21-40



The Baha'is do not believe that the Hebrew Scriptures contain only prophecies about Messiah, and only upto time of Jesus. Many of the Prophecies in our view are regarding Baha'u'llah and Baha'i revelation. Baha'u'llah brought teachings that would eventually bring world peace and unity. We believe since 19th centuray, the world has been changing to become more and more peaceful.

Now regarding,
1)He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)

This prophecy is fulfilled right after Baha'u'llah. The Jews returned to their home land.

 

[Flankerl]

OK I read it again. What does "who cares" mean please? Does it mean you care more for the plants of Earth than the people on it?

To quote my post " One mass extinction more or less... who cares. Earth certainly doesnt lol."

Its like i already gave the answer. Iam just awesome like that.

When I said ask people I mean ask them if they ever concern themselves with the idea of preventing the extinction of human beings. What is the opposite of "concern" please? When concern leads to anxiety which it always does if the concern does not function for good, the organism cannot realize the opposite which are these: assurance, calmness, composure, contentment, ease, happiness, nonchalance, peace, tranquility (according to Concern Synonyms, Concern Antonyms | Thesaurus.com )

Humans are not going to go extinct. Its just not going to happen. We are like rats, who can build stuff.

 

[Shiranui117]

I don't see how a "in spirit" temple in Jerusalem exists or is about to exist any time soon. A temple in which all nations will be flowing into...

The Church.

 

[dantech]

The Church.

All nations flow into the Church? and more specifically, the one in Jerusalem?

 

[Shiranui117]

All nations flow into the Church? and more specifically, the one in Jerusalem?

The Church originated in Jerusalem, so yes, in that sense, all nations are flowing into the Church from Jerusalem. Now, have all nations flowed into the Church, past tense? No, but we're still growing and evangelizing, and making great headway. Entire countries have been Orthodox for centuries, and even millennia. We would have done more, had it not been for persecution and hindrances from the Muslims and Communists.

 

[allright]

how is it possible for him to be the messiah, when he not did not accomplish most of the prophecies?

1)He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)

2)He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)

3)He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)

4) He must be the one responsible for the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)

There are two comings of the Messiah as reflected in the Feasts of Israel.

There are the Springs feasts, the period of Summer and then the Fall feasts

Jesus literally fulfilled the Spring feasts with his first coming

We are now in the the Summer , the times of harvest

At his second coming he will literally fulfill the Fall feasts and all the other Messianic prophecies not yet fulfilled

 

[Flankerl]

Its entirely against jewish thought that you can fulfill a mitzvot for all eternity.
Its something you have work on every day for the rest of your life(safe for life endangering events) and its something no one can do for you. Especially not if you are an adult.


So lets say he "fulfilled" the spring feast. What about next year? Nowhere in the Torah is there a mention of feasts being fulfilled for all eternity in the future.

 

[Sleeppy]

I addressed all of this in the Prophecy Challenge thread, if you're curious enough to look there. It's pretty much untouched and unchallenged.

 

[allright]

Its entirely against jewish thought that you can fulfill a mitzvot for all eternity.
Its something you have work on every day for the rest of your life(safe for life endangering events) and its something no one can do for you. Especially not if you are an adult.


So lets say he "fulfilled" the spring feast. What about next year? Nowhere in the Torah is there a mention of feasts being fulfilled for all eternity in the future.

You cant fulfill any of the feasts in reality, only the Messiah can. They are all celebrations and prophecies of what he was and is to bring about according to God's plan

 

[fallingblood]

I find that what is often being done by many is try to reshape the meaning of prophecies, for it to accommodate what happened rather than what was predicted.

That's pretty much what it is. And I think it is understandable. When Jesus was living, some of his followers probably believed he was the Messiah (or at the very least, some type of leader who was going to issue in the Kingdom of God, and rule). These people sunk all they had into this guys message, and dedicated themselves to it. They gave up everything to follow him, and leave his message. And then he dies, and their world comes crashing down.

A natural reaction is denial. I'm sure many of them thought that it just couldn't be true that he was dead. He was their messiah after all, and they would have known that the messiah couldn't die. On the other hand, the Gospels also suggest that there were a number of disciple who doubted it all.

In this despair, they believe they see Jesus, and that gives them hope once again. However, it needs to be explained, so they search the Hebrew scriptures for anything that could possible refer to what just happened, and as it is so easy to do, they found things that could be interpreted to fit their new ideas. It became a must for them.

 

[Flankerl]

You cant fulfill any of the feasts in reality, only the Messiah can.

Huh? The Torah even tells us what to do on those feasts. Read Hashem. So Hashem gave us instructions to do stuff on those dates but he didnt tell us that its all unimportant because he is going to send his "son"?

That doesnt make any sense at all.

They are all celebrations and prophecies of what he was and is to bring about according to God's plan

Seems like a rather important point for God. So where did he clearly state this in the Torah or TaNaKh?

 

[Levite]

You cant fulfill any of the feasts in reality, only the Messiah can.

:biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:

I had a dozen and a half people at each of my Pesach sedarim this year, and neither ended before 1am. I led High Holiday services for 200+. Had guests (and ushpizin) every night of Sukkot. Taught and studied at a huge multi-community Tikkun Leil Shavuot this Shavuot. And about to go have Shabbat dinner with congregants now.

Tell me again how I'm not fulfilling any of the feasts. It's hilarious.

That might be single most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this site, and that's saying something.

It's easy to fulfill the feasts. You just observe them.

You would think, considering the most important and most frequent feast is the Shabbat, that if a messiah were necessary for it, the commandment (repeated several times) might have mentioned that. And why would it be such a crime to break the Shabbat if it were impossible to fulfill it, anyway?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There are two comings of the Messiah as reflected in the Feasts of Israel.

I agree with this. the Second time is in the Last Days, as Isaiah 2:4 says.

Jesus literally fulfilled the Spring feasts with his first coming

I don't think we can say Jesus literally fulfilled the first coming.

According to Hebrew Scriptures and Traditions:

1) The Messiah will arise out of an unknown city.
2) He shall sit upon the throne of David,
3) He shall come with a sword of steel, and with a sceptre of iron shall He rule!
4) He shall fulfill the law of the Prophets.
5) He shall conquer the East and the West
6) He shall glorify His chosen people the Jews.
7) He shall bring with Him a reign of peace, during which even the animals shall cease to be at enmity with man...the wolf and the lamb shall drink from the same spring, and the lion and the doe shall lie down in the same pasture, the serpent and the mouse shall share the same nest, and all God’s creatures shall be at rest’



But When Jesus came:

1) He came from Nazareth, no unknown place.
2) He did not sit upon the Throne of David, He was a poor man.
3) He carried no sword in His hand, nor even a stick.
4) He reformed the Law of Moses, and broke the Sabbath Day.
5) He did not conquer the East and the West, but was crucified and killed.
6) He did not exalt the Jews, but rebuked most of Jewish leaders of His time.
7) He brought in no reign of peace, even in His lifetime injustice and cruelty reached very high, and eventually He was crucified with cruelty.


So, He did not fulfill any of these "literally"

It can be only said He fulfilled if the above are reinterpreted 'spiritually' and 'metaphorically':


1) Although Christ came from Nazareth, which was a known place, He came also from heaven, (the unknown place). His body was born of Mary, but His Spirit came from heaven.

2) The sword He carried was the sword of His tongue, with which He divided the good from the evil, the true from the false, the faithful from the unfaithful, and the light from the darkness. His Word was indeed a sharp sword!

3) The throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns forever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. (the David's throne is a Metaphor for a Heavenly Kingship, not literally having lineage of David or be a worldly King)

4) He reinterpreted and completed the Laws of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets.

5) His Word conquered the East and the West. Not He literally conquared anywhere. (His Words were spread)

6) He exalted those Jews who recognized Him. They were men and women of humble birth, but contact with Him made them great and gave them everlasting dignity.

7) The animals who were to live with one another signified the different sects and races, who, once having been at war, were now to dwell in love and charity, drinking together the Water of Life from Christ the Eternal Spring.

We are now in the the Summer , the times of harvest

The Summer had arrived just some hundred years after Jesus as the Fruits of His Revelation appeared at that time when the different sects and races, who, once were having been at war, were later became friends and united. But after about 600 years from Jesus the Winter arrived, and even Christians started to have wars with one another.

At his second coming he will literally fulfill the Fall feasts and all the other Messianic prophecies not yet fulfilled

Are you sure His second coming must be interpreted literally? Would that be consistent?
The Baha'is believe He already came but was not recognized, because the Christians interpret the Prophecies literally.


Most Christians accept the above interpretations of Messianic prophecies as applied to Christ; but with regard to similar prophecies about the latter-day Messiah, many of them take up the same attitude as the Jews, expecting a miraculous display on the material plane which will fulfill the very letter of the prophecies.

Baha'u'llah and the New Era--Prophecies about Christ