Abrahamics: why did God create us?

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The question in the OP is really very interesting -- but I wish that it had not been addressed just to "Abrahamics," and I wish it were not so narrowly framed. It needs such a hugely broader consideration.

Let's start with a simple question: "Were we created or did we arise through natural processes?" Well, since this seems to be a religious question, let's ignore the latter, and agree (for the sake of argument) that we were created. But if that is the case, then there are many, many more questions than simply "why?" Although I agree that "why" would be incredibly important. Why, just for starters, would a totally self-sufficient, omnipotent, omniscient being need something else? Without something to lord it over, or to cherish, or to play with -- does it feel somehow incomplete? Why?

But after the "why" question comes the "how" question. Was there really an Adam and Eve creation, then all the other critters after that? Or was there a creation of a "protoplasmal primordial atomic globule" (Gilbert and Sullivan, Mikada, Pooh Bah), along with a set of rules that would,

• either lead to us, or
• lead to something, but which the creator couldn't predict?

And then, if it turns out that the creator couldn't predict what would happen -- well what was it aiming for? And if it turns out that the creator could predict what would happen -- well, why not just get there right away, without all that nonsense of 3 billion years of fiddling about?

So, really, religious folks, let's really try to answer a real question.

 

[Kenny]

So now I ask you, followers of Abraham. Why did God create us in the first place?

Why not? Why married people have children?

He must’ve had some foresight that man would sin and begin a state of perpetual suffering for the human race.

Yes, he did have the foresight and thus, Jesus. But why do you think it is perpetual? What about the reign of peace with Jesus?

And what’s up with the tree?

What is wrong with it?

 

[Brian2]

The question in the OP is really very interesting -- but I wish that it had not been addressed just to "Abrahamics," and I wish it were not so narrowly framed. It needs such a hugely broader consideration.

Let's start with a simple question: "Were we created or did we arise through natural processes?" Well, since this seems to be a religious question, let's ignore the latter, and agree (for the sake of argument) that we were created. But if that is the case, then there are many, many more questions than simply "why?" Although I agree that "why" would be incredibly important. Why, just for starters, would a totally self-sufficient, omnipotent, omniscient being need something else? Without something to lord it over, or to cherish, or to play with -- does it feel somehow incomplete? Why?

But after the "why" question comes the "how" question. Was there really an Adam and Eve creation, then all the other critters after that? Or was there a creation of a "protoplasmal primordial atomic globule" (Gilbert and Sullivan, Mikada, Pooh Bah), along with a set of rules that would,

• either lead to us, or
• lead to something, but which the creator couldn't predict?

And then, if it turns out that the creator couldn't predict what would happen -- well what was it aiming for? And if it turns out that the creator could predict what would happen -- well, why not just get there right away, without all that nonsense of 3 billion years of fiddling about?

So, really, religious folks, let's really try to answer a real question.

Abrahamics have faith in the existence of the Abrahamic God and the answers to your questions, for them, come from that belief.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Abrahamics have faith in the existence of the Abrahamic God and the answers to your questions, for them, come from that belief.

Which, of course, is one way to duck actually providing an answer.

Because their belief does not answer the question "why." Nor does it even tangentially approach the broader question of a universe of unimaginable scale compared to this tiny-to-the-point-of-unnoticeability backwater planet, which seems to be the only thing this Abrahamic God is interested in.

 

[Colt]

Why did the Abrahamic God create man?

View attachment 70198

When I was a teenager, my pastor had the bright idea of making me a Sunday school teacher with a class ranging from 4 year olds - 12 year olds.

Wasn’t a bright idea. I was very ill equipped and really young. And teaching such a range of ages made it difficult. I had to teach the Bible simple enough for the four year olds to understand, but I also had to make it complex enough for the 12 year olds to get something new out of the lesson. This lasted for around 6 years, all the way up till I left the church.

Kids ask good questions which would stump me.
“Why did God create man in the first place? And why did He put the forbidden tree in the garden?”

I would parrot what my pastor told me. “God has so much love in His heart that He created man so He could share His love. And if there wasn’t the tree there, we would be no different than robots (I still don’t understand that one)!” They weren’t ever satisfied with answers such as these.

So now I ask you, followers of Abraham. Why did God create us in the first place? He must’ve had some foresight that man would sin and begin a state of perpetual suffering for the human race. And what’s up with the tree?

God wanted to have children to share his self conscious existence. It’s Gods lovable nature. God has created the endless adventure that awaits us.

The tree wasn’t a literal tree, it was Gods will for the 2 celestial beings who came from heaven to replace the previous fallen administration. Adam and Eve arrived on an ancient earth that was already populated and fallen.

The “crafty beast” was the previous administrator who joined the Lucifer rebellion against the unseen Universal Father.

When the Israelite priest were writing their story of origins based on existing Mesopotamian lore, they assumed that Adam was the first man. They tried to create a creation story that explained things.

 

[Valjean]

Abrahamics have faith in the existence of the Abrahamic God and the answers to your questions, for them, come from that belief.

But you've just acknowledged that the belief is faith-based.

Faith is unfounded or poorly evidenced belief. Few non-believers are going to be persuaded by unevidenced claims; claims based on feelings, emotions, personal familiarity, tradition, or parental teachings. What we're looking for is objective, concrete, observable, reproducible, consilient, measurable, or consistent evidence, such as we have for germs causing disease, dinosaurs dying off 65M years ago, or water freezing at 0 degrees C.

 

[Debater Slayer]

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[Brian2]

Which, of course, is one way to duck actually providing an answer.

Because their belief does not answer the question "why." Nor does it even tangentially approach the broader question of a universe of unimaginable scale compared to this tiny-to-the-point-of-unnoticeability backwater planet, which seems to be the only thing this Abrahamic God is interested in.

Initially in the Bible we see that God created the universe and then we go to the earth and concentrate on what happened there, but the universe is still there and there are no limits to the Kingdom of God and to the time we have, so anything is possible but we are not told the exact details, getting it right here and with our family and ourselves is enough for us at the moment.

 

[Brian2]

But you've just acknowledged that the belief is faith-based.

Faith is unfounded or poorly evidenced belief. Few non-believers are going to be persuaded by unevidenced claims; claims based on feelings, emotions, personal familiarity, tradition, or parental teachings. What we're looking for is objective, concrete, observable, reproducible, consilient, measurable, or consistent evidence, such as we have for germs causing disease, dinosaurs dying off 65M years ago, or water freezing at 0 degrees C.

Keep looking. Let me know if you find what you say you are looking for.

 

[RestlessSoul]

But you've just acknowledged that the belief is faith-based.

Faith is unfounded or poorly evidenced belief. Few non-believers are going to be persuaded by unevidenced claims; claims based on feelings, emotions, personal familiarity, tradition, or parental teachings. What we're looking for is objective, concrete, observable, reproducible, consilient, measurable, or consistent evidence, such as we have for germs causing disease, dinosaurs dying off 65M years ago, or water freezing at 0 degrees C.

Your definition of faith is likely to be satisfactory only to the person who assigns no value to it. I offer Leo Tolstoy’s definition, by way of an alternative perspective;

“Faith is the strength of life. If a man lives, he believes in something. If he did not believe that man must live for something, he would not live.”

Further on in ‘A Confession’, Tolstoy - nothing if not a rationalist and a critical thinker - says that man “Must choose between reason, from which it follows that there is no meaning, and faith, which entails rejecting reason. But if reason leads to the conclusion that nothing makes sense, then reason is irrational.”

Faced with this dilemma, all Tolstoy’s success as a writer, the admiration of his peers, the love of his family, a lifetime’s study of science and philosophy, could not console him in the face of the existential despair which descended on him in midlife. Only faith could enable him to reconcile the finite with the infinite, the fleeting with the eternal, and the world of illusory impressions, with the great and enduring reality of life.

 

[Valjean]

Your definition of faith is likely to be satisfactory only to the person who assigns no value to it. I offer Leo Tolstoy’s definition, by way of an alternative perspective;

“Faith is the strength of life. If a man lives, he believes in something. If he did not believe that man must live for something, he would not live.”

Further on in ‘A Confession’, Tolstoy - nothing if not a rationalist and a critical thinker - says that man “Must choose between reason, from which it follows that there is no meaning, and faith, which entails rejecting reason. But if reason leads to the conclusion that nothing makes sense, then reason is irrational.”

Faced with this dilemma, all Tolstoy’s success as a writer, the admiration of his peers, the love of his family, a lifetime’s study of science and philosophy, could not console him in the face of the existential despair which descended on him in midlife. Only faith could enable him to reconcile the finite with the infinite, the fleeting with the eternal, and the world of illusory impressions, with the great and enduring reality of life.

Good point. Faith as a psychotherapeutic modality; an opiate, as it were. That's all fine, but don't pretend to assign it epistemic validity, in that case.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Good point. Faith as a psychotherapeutic modality; an opiate, as it were. That's all fine, but don't pretend to assign it epistemic validity, in that case.

Logic, reason, intuition, and faith are different tools, and serve different purposes, sure. But there may be occasions when it is appropriate to use a hammer to drive in a screw.

 

[Brian2]

But you've just acknowledged that the belief is faith-based.

Faith is unfounded or poorly evidenced belief. Few non-believers are going to be persuaded by unevidenced claims; claims based on feelings, emotions, personal familiarity, tradition, or parental teachings. What we're looking for is objective, concrete, observable, reproducible, consilient, measurable, or consistent evidence, such as we have for germs causing disease, dinosaurs dying off 65M years ago, or water freezing at 0 degrees C.

I don't suppose you are talking about the dying off of dinosaurs being caused by God so that mammals and the human could have a chance to evolve and a less hostile world to live in.
I don't suppose you are talking about water freezing at 0 degrees C and that ice actually floats on liquid water and gives life a chance to survive under the ice. Water is amazing stuff like that, surely designed that way by God for life on earth to survive.
Or maybe that salty ice has a lower freezing point, that surely must be a design feature that was designed to keep life in the oceans going in freezing conditions.
Maybe not.

 

[Valjean]

I don't suppose you are talking about the dying off of dinosaurs being caused by God so that mammals and the human could have a chance to evolve and a less hostile world to live in.
I don't suppose you are talking about water freezing at 0 degrees C and that ice actually floats on liquid water and gives life a chance to survive under the ice. Water is amazing stuff like that, surely designed that way by God for life on earth to survive.
Or maybe that salty ice has a lower freezing point, that surely must be a design feature that was designed to keep life in the oceans going in freezing conditions.
Maybe not.

Huh????
Not following. Are you reading some kind of argument from design into this?

And salt water freezes at a lower temperature than fresh.

 

[Brian2]

Huh????
Not following. Are you reading some kind of argument from design into this?

And salt water freezes at a lower temperature than fresh.

The ocean does not turn into a big block of ice in colder climates. Hmm, sounds like a good design feature to me.
Our salty bodies and blood don't freeze as fast when the temps get below freezing.
Or of course most importantly salt, water and ice can help us chill our beer fast.
The fastest way to chill your beer

 

[Valjean]

The ocean does not turn into a big block of ice in colder climates. Hmm, sounds like a good design feature to me.
Our salty bodies and blood don't freeze as fast when the temps get below freezing.
Or of course most importantly salt, water and ice can help us chill our beer fast.
The fastest way to chill your beer

Sorry, I still have no idea what point you're making.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Why did the Abrahamic God create man?

View attachment 70198

When I was a teenager, my pastor had the bright idea of making me a Sunday school teacher with a class ranging from 4 year olds - 12 year olds.

Wasn’t a bright idea. I was very ill equipped and really young. And teaching such a range of ages made it difficult. I had to teach the Bible simple enough for the four year olds to understand, but I also had to make it complex enough for the 12 year olds to get something new out of the lesson. This lasted for around 6 years, all the way up till I left the church.

Kids ask good questions which would stump me.
“Why did God create man in the first place? And why did He put the forbidden tree in the garden?”

I would parrot what my pastor told me. “God has so much love in His heart that He created man so He could share His love. And if there wasn’t the tree there, we would be no different than robots (I still don’t understand that one)!” They weren’t ever satisfied with answers such as these.

So now I ask you, followers of Abraham. Why did God create us in the first place? He must’ve had some foresight that man would sin and begin a state of perpetual suffering for the human race. And what’s up with the tree?

Hi Xavier Graham. Good afternoon. I feel if you would have considered Yahweh's plan a bit more, you would have been able to come up with some reasonable answers. The tree of knowing good and evil placed in the middle of the Garden was there for several reasons, but the one main reason is that Yahweh allows us to be tempted, although he himself tempts no man. It's up to us to resist that temptation to prove our love to Yahweh. To prove that we will keep His commandments. This is the only way we can truly show our love to Yahweh.

Yahweh had all the answers. Adam and Eve could go to Him with questions and Yahweh would have every solution they needed. In this sense, they were, so long as they refused the tree of knowing good and evil, making Yahweh their Elohim (Strong One), just as the first commandment in the 10 commandment says. Eating the tree of knowing good and evil would be saying, I don't want to come to Yahweh for the solutions to my problems, I want to be able to have all that knowledge myself so I can make my own decisions. Can humans being be trusted with all knowledge? When we built the atomic bomb, wasn't this a precarious time in earth's history? Many films have come out on the premise of nuclear annihilation of the world. We cannot be trusted with all knowledge like Yahweh can, because Yahweh's heart is pure. He doesn't have the inclination to do evil. Like the breastplate of judgment and righteousness, he always has these things upon his heart. This is just one of the main reasons I can think of why Yahweh left that tree there.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your definition of faith is likely to be satisfactory only to the person who assigns no value to it. I offer Leo Tolstoy’s definition, by way of an alternative perspective;

“Faith is the strength of life. If a man lives, he believes in something. If he did not believe that man must live for something, he would not live.”

Further on in ‘A Confession’, Tolstoy - nothing if not a rationalist and a critical thinker - says that man “Must choose between reason, from which it follows that there is no meaning, and faith, which entails rejecting reason. But if reason leads to the conclusion that nothing makes sense, then reason is irrational.”

Faced with this dilemma, all Tolstoy’s success as a writer, the admiration of his peers, the love of his family, a lifetime’s study of science and philosophy, could not console him in the face of the existential despair which descended on him in midlife. Only faith could enable him to reconcile the finite with the infinite, the fleeting with the eternal, and the world of illusory impressions, with the great and enduring reality of life.

Faith and hope... Only those of us who have known true despair can appreciate them.
I guess that is one value of suffering.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Faith and hope... Only those of us who have known true despair can appreciate them.
I guess that is one value of suffering.

Yep, the Gift of Desperation. The price of entry into a new way of living.