Absolute Truth VS Opinion

[Genna]

OK, I have heard people say many times on this board in regards to their faith/religion that it is their belief, or according to "their opinion" its the truth. How or if possible does one determine whether what is absolute truth as to personal opinion. E.G., "well you have your belief and I have mines," well I personally believe that Christianity is the truth, and I personally believe that Islam is the truth." Is there any way to determine what is the absolute truth? I mean all religions have differing opinions and beliefs, so which one is true? they can't all be if they differ! And is there a way to determine which one is the absolute truth or is the only way we are going to find out is when we die?

 

[PetShopBoy88]

OK, I have heard people say many times on this board in regards to their faith/religion that it is their belief, or according to "their opinion" its the truth.

I only say that because if I don't people tend to get mad at me for being cocky.

Is there any way to determine what is the absolute truth?

Prayer is (in my opinion ) the only way that can happen.

they can't all be if they differ!

Many (not me) will disagree with you on that point.

And is there a way to determine which one is the absolute truth or is the only way we are going to find out is when we die?

No. You can find out for yourself. I read earlier (I'm sure it was a mormon who posted it) somebody posted that scriptural reference from James that says if any lacks wisdom to ask of God, and He will give it. I know that's true. I've asked of God where I have lacked wisdom and have received it.

 

[Genna]

I'm just trying to turn my life around which is why I am so inquisitive. This board has opened my eyes to a certain degree. I appreciate your responding. I'll try prayer, but not sure who am I suppose to pray to, does God have a name? People tell me to pray to alah, Jesus, God, Buddha, Krishna,.. who do I pray to? how do I go to heaven?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'll try prayer, but not sure who am I suppose to pray to, does God have a name? People tell me to pray to alah, Jesus, God, Buddha, Krishna,.. who do I pray to? how do I go to heaven?

Try "Arnold".

 

[PetShopBoy88]

I'm just trying to turn my life around which is why I am so inquisitive. This board has opened my eyes to a certain degree. I appreciate your responding. I'll try prayer, but not sure who am I suppose to pray to, does God have a name?

Pray to him as Christ prayed to him. Call him Father.

 

[doppelganger]

Try "Genna." You might even get an answer back!

 

[Genna]

Pray to him as Christ prayed to him. Call him Father.

How's this sound [me]: Father please give me wisdom and help me to get to heaven. How's that? And doppleganger I am not praying to myself, that is absolutely vain!

 

[doppelganger]

And doppleganger I am not praying to myself

Wanna bet . . . ?

 

[Genna]

Wanna bet . . . ?

How? and yeah I will bet you, anything you want!

 

[JerryL]

OK, I have heard people say many times on this board in regards to their faith/religion that it is their belief, or according to "their opinion" its the truth. How or if possible does one determine whether what is absolute truth as to personal opinion. E.G., "well you have your belief and I have mines," well I personally believe that Christianity is the truth, and I personally believe that Islam is the truth." Is there any way to determine what is the absolute truth? I mean all religions have differing opinions and beliefs, so which one is true? they can't all be if they differ! And is there a way to determine which one is the absolute truth or is the only way we are going to find out is when we die?

Because it is, I believe, what you ment: I'm replaing "aboslute" with "objective".

Yes. It is generally possible to determine objective relity from subjective reality. Within given presuppositions, one can often determine the nature of a given part of objective reality with certainty.

It's worth noting that these two things are seperate. "objective" and "true" are two different tests. I am black is objective but not true. Pizza is tastey is true, but not objective.

"absolute" contrasts with "relative", and there's no certain relationship between these phrases and the objective/subjective line.

"it's 500 kelvin" objective and absolute
"its hot" subjective and relative

On the other hand "moving at 55mph" (the way we tend to measure it) is objetive and relative. "moving fast" is subjective and relative.

 

[waacman]

OK, I have heard people say many times on this board in regards to their faith/religion that it is their belief, or according to "their opinion" its the truth. How or if possible does one determine whether what is absolute truth as to personal opinion. E.G., "well you have your belief and I have mines," well I personally believe that Christianity is the truth, and I personally believe that Islam is the truth." Is there any way to determine what is the absolute truth? I mean all religions have differing opinions and beliefs, so which one is true? they can't all be if they differ! And is there a way to determine which one is the absolute truth or is the only way we are going to find out is when we die?

if you mean "determine" as in "knowing for 100% certain that there is an absolute truth" I would say no, though that doesn't limit me not to believe that there is an absolute truth and that we can come close to 100% cetainty of what that absolute truth is.

 

[Genna]

Your Christian, you should be familiar with the famous expression which originated from your messiah "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
So how does one "know" the truth?

 

[sojourner]

OK, I have heard people say many times on this board in regards to their faith/religion that it is their belief, or according to "their opinion" its the truth. How or if possible does one determine whether what is absolute truth as to personal opinion. E.G., "well you have your belief and I have mines," well I personally believe that Christianity is the truth, and I personally believe that Islam is the truth." Is there any way to determine what is the absolute truth? I mean all religions have differing opinions and beliefs, so which one is true? they can't all be if they differ! And is there a way to determine which one is the absolute truth or is the only way we are going to find out is when we die?

We try so hard to make truth absolute. But, truth depends a lot on one's point of view. Problem is, everyone has his/her own unique perspective. I suspect that truth is rather more like a diamond -- three-dimensional, with many, many facets than it is like a two-dimensional picture that can be seen all at once, at-a-glance. I suspect that truth overarches what each of us is able to verbalize or conceptualize about truth. All religions have a handle on some aspect of truth. All religions speak truth in their own, unique way. What the Muslims call "Allah," Christians call "God." For the Christian, the archetype of reconciling humanity to divinity is Christ. For the Muslim, it is something else. For the Buddhist, it is something else.

I'm just trying to turn my life around which is why I am so inquisitive. This board has opened my eyes to a certain degree. I appreciate your responding. I'll try prayer, but not sure who am I suppose to pray to, does God have a name? People tell me to pray to alah, Jesus, God, Buddha, Krishna,.. who do I pray to? how do I go to heaven?

You have taken the first step already! You realize that your life is not what it needs to be. You want to "turn your life around." Christians call that "repentance" -- literally, a turning again. That's what happens when you perceive that your life is more divine than you thought it was.

I would say to take the next step by being true to yourself. Find what resonates inside you about how you relate to the world -- what is the best expression of truth for you. (If you were reared in a Christian environment, a more Christian approach might be best for you.)

Then, seek out others who walk the same path you think you are on. Question. Ask. Talk. Listen. Doubt. Test what you come to believe. Your path to the Divine is your own. God doesn't ask that we be perfect. God's desire is for us to seek God. That's why God has provided so many different paths to the Divine.

Pray for wisdom, for sight, for discernment. What you said in another post is a good prayer for you.

You are at the cusp of a turning point and are beginning a wonderful journey that will define the rest of your life. Christians take that journey by learning to discard their own will in favor of God's will for them. Buddhists (I believe) take that journey by taking their self-awareness beyond the self. The dynamic at work here is learning that your life is defined in much larger terms than you're aware of right now. Find out more about that definition.

 

[Random]

It may be that there are no absolutes in this life. All truths contain some element of opinion: God's opinions are said the be the very definition of absolute Right and Good by religious fundamentalists. This doesn't make it so, but it shows that the mind can only grasp at diluted Truths, not unfiltered truly "absolute" ones.

In any case, Relativism (moral or otherwise) is the death and defeat of Truth. Only by the insight of our own Reason and Intuition (with help from our God, perhaps) can we see and acknowlege transcendent, unchanging truths...but people cannot live with them, I'm afraid. It strips them of their freewill, their choice of what to believe, and negates their precious sense of Self.

I fear any personal quest for an absolute truth is destined to fail. Buddhists say as much in their philosophy, perhaps a person undertaking that journey ought to investigate Buddhism first.

 

[JerryL]

It may be that there are no absolutes in this life.

Absolutely no absolutes?

I fear any personal quest for an absolute truth is destined to fail. Buddhists say as much in their philosophy, perhaps a person undertaking that journey ought to investigate Buddhism first.[/quote} I like Buddism.

 

[Mr. Hair]

I mean all religions have differing opinions and beliefs, so which one is true? they can't all be if they differ!

Why not? It seems to be generally accepted that the divine cannot be fully expressed in rational dialogue and deductive concepts, and I believe that the same should follow for religious belief systems which are, after all, based on an accepted orthodox formation of particular dialogues and concepts of the unknown.

Two people may view the same cloud and see different images within it (invariably I seem to always see giant lobsters); neither interpretation need be any more or less correct then the other, and neither can fully reflect what the cloud actually is. I'm not sure if one religion does indeed contain the truth or not, though given my afore-mentioned views I doubt it, but I do believe that many, perhaps all, religions and religious teachings/lifestyles can and do contain aspects of truth(s) about the unknown, how those truths are manifested depends a lot on the mythological, historical and social circumstances within that particular culture in which the religion arises and how its early followers explain and communicate those truths to each other and outsiders.

By the way, I wish you luck on finding your own path, wherever it takes you.

 

[Æsahættr]

OK, I have heard people say many times on this board in regards to their faith/religion that it is their belief, or according to "their opinion" its the truth. How or if possible does one determine whether what is absolute truth as to personal opinion. E.G., "well you have your belief and I have mines," well I personally believe that Christianity is the truth, and I personally believe that Islam is the truth." Is there any way to determine what is the absolute truth? I mean all religions have differing opinions and beliefs, so which one is true? they can't all be if they differ! And is there a way to determine which one is the absolute truth or is the only way we are going to find out is when we die?

I don't think it's ever possible to be in possession of absolute truth. Absolute truth is something to try and get as close as you can to, rather than ever actually reach. In my opinion the scientific method is the best way to try to get closer to absolute truth, because the principle of falsifiable predictions means that on average, predictions that are closer to the absolute truth confirm experimental results and one another more than predictions that are further away from it.

 

[doppelganger]

The Blind Men and the Elephant

Buddhist version:

A number of disciples went to the Buddha and said, "Sir, there are living here in Savatthi many wandering hermits and scholars who indulge in constant dispute, some saying that the world is infinite and eternal and others that it is finite and not eternal, some saying that the soul dies with the body and others that it lives on forever, and so forth. What, Sir, would you say concerning them?"


The Buddha answered, "Once upon a time there was a certain raja who called to his servant and said, 'Come, good fellow, go and gather together in one place all the men of Savatthi who were born blind... and show them an elephant.' 'Very good, sire,' replied the servant, and he did as he was told. He said to the blind men assembled there, 'Here is an elephant,' and to one man he presented the head of the elephant, to another its ears, to another a tusk, to another the trunk, the foot, back, tail, and tuft of the tail, saying to each one that that was the elephant.

"When the blind men had felt the elephant, the raja went to each of them and said to each, 'Well, blind man, have you seen the elephant? Tell me, what sort of thing is an elephant?'

"Thereupon the men who were presented with the head answered, 'Sire, an elephant is like a pot.' And the men who had observed the ear replied, 'An elephant is like a winnowing basket.' Those who had been presented with a tusk said it was a ploughshare. Those who knew only the trunk said it was a plough; others said the body was a grainery; the foot, a pillar; the back, a mortar; the tail, a pestle, the tuft of the tail, a brush.

"Then they began to quarrel, shouting, 'Yes it is!' 'No, it is not!' 'An elephant is not that!' 'Yes, it's like that!' and so on, till they came to blows over the matter.

"Brethren, the raja was delighted with the scene.

"Just so are these preachers and scholars holding various views blind and unseeing.... In their ignorance they are by nature quarrelsome, wrangling, and disputatious, each maintaining reality is thus and thus."


Then the Exalted One rendered this meaning by uttering this verse of uplift

O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
For preacher and monk the honored name!
For, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
Such folk see only one side of a thing.

Udana 68-69

Sufi version:

A community of blind men once heard that an extraordinary beast called an elephant had been brought into the country. Since they did not know what it looked like and had never heard its name, they resolved to obtain a picture, and the knowledge they desired, by feeling the beast - the only possibility that was open to them! They went in search of the elephant, and when they had found it, they felt its body. One touched its leg, the other a tusk, the third an ear, and in the belief that they now knew the elephant, they returned home. But when they were questioned by the other blind men, their answers differed. The one who had felt the leg maintained that the elephant was nothing other than a pillar, extremely rough to the touch, and yet strangely soft. The one who had caught hold of the tusk denied this and described the elephant as, hard and smooth, with nothing soft or rough about it, more over the beast was by no means as stout as a pillar, but rather had the shape of a post ['amud]. The third, who had held the ear in his hands, spoke: "By my faith, it is both soft and rough." Thus he agreed with one of the others, but went on to say: Nevertheless, it is neither like a post nor a pillar, but like a broad, thick piece of leather." Each was right in a certain sense, since each of them communicated that part of the elephant he had comprehended, but none was able describe the elephant as it really was; for all three of them were unable to comprehend the entire form of the elephant.

al-Ghazzali, Ihya’ `ulum ad-din (Cairo, 1933), vol.IV p.6

American version:

It was six men of Indostan, to learning much inclined,
who went to see the elephant (Though all of them were blind),
that each by observation, might satisfy his mind.
The first approached the elephant, and, happening to fall,
against his broad and sturdy side, at once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the elephant, is nothing but a wall!"
The second feeling of the tusk, cried: "Ho! what have we here,
so very round and smooth and sharp? To me tis mighty clear,
this wonder of an elephant, is very like a spear!"
The third approached the animal, and, happening to take,
the squirming trunk within his hands, "I see," quoth he,
the elephant is very like a snake!"
The fourth reached out his eager hand, and felt about the knee:
"What most this wondrous beast is like, is mighty plain," quoth he;
"Tis clear enough the elephant is very like a tree."
The fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, Said; "E'en the blindest man
can tell what this resembles most; Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an elephant, is very like a fan!"
The sixth no sooner had begun, about the beast to grope,
than, seizing on the swinging tail, that fell within his scope,
"I see," quothe he, "the elephant is very like a rope!"
And so these men of Indostan, disputed loud and long,
each in his own opinion, exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right, and all were in the wrong!
So, oft in theologic wars, the disputants, I ween,
tread on in utter ignorance, of what each other mean,
and prate about the elephant, not one of them has seen!


-John Godfrey Saxe

Who says "truth" isn't universal?

 

[Mr. Hair]

Who says "truth" isn't universal?

*smiles*

*(and fruballs)*

Well put, though who said that "truth" can't be or isn't universal?

 

[JerryL]

Why not? It seems to be generally accepted that the divine cannot be fully expressed in rational dialogue and deductive concepts, and I believe that the same should follow for religious belief systems which are, after all, based on an accepted orthodox formation of particular dialogues and concepts of the unknown.

Christianity: The only way to heaven is through belief in Jesus.
Old Norse: The only way to heaven is death in battle.
Buddaism: There is no heaven, the way to nirvana is enlightenment

Tell me how it's possibly that the only way to heaven is belief in Jesus *and* the only way to heaven is death in battle despite the fact that there is no heaven.