Absolute Truth

[Wannabe Yogi]

exactly when does 1+1 stop equaling 2?

Absolute truth cannot be expressed in words. This equation is the perfect example. 1+1 does not always equal 2. This statement is true only if + means "add two numbers", but it might mean "concatenate", so the result would be "11".

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

How can he conclude that 1) without social laws there can be no happiness or distress
and
2) that if there is no happiness and misery then there can be no God

That doesn't seem logical or plausible.

I do believe that material happiness and misery are illusory. Illusory means fickle, temporary and a condition of ignorance.

when you are saying social laws are you refering to the laws of men, or the laws of God to men such as love your neighbor?
Everytime you say illusory for some reason I keep thinking of the word illusion, which apparently it is or is not?

Maybe you would like to read the Lehi quote in full, I really wish you would.
It has some really good conversation potential.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/146037-our-life-earth-adam-eve-agency.html

Here is another part of his quote that might answer his reasoning.

"11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God." ~Lehi

 

[cottage]

I think you lack understanding of what science is and does. In science everything must be open to question. Scientific "truth" is not absolute, it is provisional. It is true provided the evidence supports it, provided no other answer works better etc. If something becomes "absolute", it is no longer science. It is dogma.

Yes! That in my opinion is the perfect answer.

The best that can be hoped for is a high degree of probability.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Yes! That in my opinion is the perfect answer.

The best that can be hoped for is a high degree of probability.

Yes they acknowledge it as Theory, because they are aware of their own limitations, but that does not however mean there is not point to Science, I believe the entire point in science is a quest for truth and innovation.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Once you find absolute truth I believe you can use it as a key stone and try to uncover more truth with the truth you have. Like putting a puzzle together.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Do you believe an Absolute truth would be "Change is the only constant"?

 

[fantome profane]

exactly when does 1+1 stop equaling 2?

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." (Albert Einstein)

Something to consider.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

"If ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. ~Lehi"

I don't believe in sin. It is an Abrahamic concept. So I feel very comfertable with rejecting both the concept of both sin or righteousness. I believe if you are going to use this type of dual thinking there are many much more accurate methods to describe the pairs of opposites in life. Just one example is Harmony and chaos. Any action can be Categorized creating harmony in life. Like saying kind words to your child before going off to school so he will have a good day. Or chaotic actions that hurt others, like abusing your child. This action not only creates chaos in his life but also in the lives of others who come into contact with that kid. It is a simple way to explain this idea. Without needing to explain how sin came in to the world through the mythic people Adam and Eve.

 

[Madhuri]

Do you believe an Absolute truth would be "Change is the only constant"?

Yes and no. On a microcosmic level this is true but ultimately even change is an illusion imo.
To illustrate, the water in a pond is constantly moving. You see different ripples, different movements in the water. But ultimately, the pond is always the same.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I don't believe in sin. It is an Abrahamic concept. So I feel very comfertable with rejecting both the concept of both sin or righteousness. I believe if you are going to use this type of dual thinking there are many much more accurate methods to describe the pairs of opposites in life. Just one example is Harmony and chaos. Any action can be Categorized creating harmony in life. Like saying kind words to your child before going off to school so he will have a good day. Or chaotic actions that hurt others, like abusing your child. This action not only creates chaos in his life but also in the lives of others who come into contact with that kid. It is a simple way to explain this idea. Without needing to explain how sin came in to the world through the mythic people Adam and Eve.

Okay, sin being things that are destructive and righteousness being things that are constructive. Now is there construction and destruction? If yes, does that show that there is in existence some kind of law or order that effect our overall happiness and misery?

 

[Madhuri]

"11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God." ~Lehi

I think there is some truth in this, at least on a superficial level.

I believe these dualities are only perceived through the veil of Maya (illusion). I believe that the absolute reality is Love, Eternity and Knowledge.

One of my favourite quotes:

"From a non-dual perspective there is only Love or consciousness or aliveness. Therefore since that is everything then everything is one on a continuum. Love is all, but evil spawns out of the illusion/ignorance of duality. Since everything is an expression of the one....even through ignorance.....then evil and bad do not exist really."

This quote above speaks truth to me far more than the quote you provided. And yet rather than argue that my version is right and yours is wrong, I see this more as evidence to my original point which is that absolute truth must be so complex that very few could actually recognise it.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Yes and no. On a microcosmic level this is true but ultimately even change is an illusion imo.
To illustrate, the water in a pond is constantly moving. You see different ripples, different movements in the water. But ultimately, the pond is always the same.

So if all things are merely an illusion, then you agree with Lehi in that if everything is an illusion then we really do not exist?

 

[Madhuri]

Okay, sin being things that are destructive and righteousness being things that are constructive. Now is there construction and destruction? If yes, does that show that there is in existence some kind of law or order that effect our overall happiness and misery?

I have to say, you just surprised me (in a good way!).

I've always defined good and evil as constructive vs destructive. I came up with it as my own definition and never heard the likes of it from anybody else.

Frubals!

 

[Madhuri]

So if all things are merely an illusion, then you agree with Lehi in that if everything is an illusion then we really do not exist?

Only that which is subject to change and is temporary so I call illusory.
In other words, the material universe and all that is part of it. But not spirit. And we, the souls, are spiritual creatures according to my beliefs.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Only that which is subject to change and is temporary so I call illusory.
In other words, the material universe and all that is part of it. But not spirit. And we, the souls, are spiritual creatures according to my beliefs.

So you believe in spiritual absolute truths. Do you have any examples of such?

 

[Madhuri]

So you believe in spiritual absolute truths. Do you have any examples of such?

I will post what I think to be absolutely true, but based on my earlier point, I do not think that everyone would see the same truth in these words:

"Bright but hidden, the Self dwells in the heart.
Everything that moves, breathes, opens, and closes
Lives in the Self. He is the source of love
And may be known through love but not through thought
He is the goal of life. Attain this goal!"

-Mundaka Upanishad

(God is called the Self)

Conscious spirit and unconscious matter
Both have existed since the dawn of time,
With maya appearing to connect them,
Misrepresenting joy as outside us.

When all these three are seen as one, the Self
Reveals his universal form and serves
As an instrument of the divine will.

All is change in the world of the senses,
But changeless is the supreme Lord of Love.
Meditate on him, be absorbed by him,
Wake up from this dream of separateness

-Shvetashvatara Upanishad

 

[no-body]

You can call that apple an orange all you want, at the end of the day its still an apple.

 

[Windwalker]

Absolute Truth may be all around us continually, but that does not mean that we understand it. As I said before, that is the whole idea of science, the search for and investigation of absolute truth.

I would challenge your idea that science is about the investigation of absolute truth. In fact I would deny that as true. Science is science because it is a continual process of looking at the data in an open-ended fashion. The minute it said something is a fact and there is no further discussion, science is no longer science but a religion instead.

I see Absolute Truth as the nature of truth itself, not some propositional concept. To know Truth, is to know all truths as they are. Not in knowing all information, all data, all models of reality, but the nature of them as reflections of light on the surfaces of objects, and not the Light itself.

 

[Twilight Hue]

exactly when does 1+1 stop equaling 2?

Whenever new information is added or subtracted. Please re-read my reply.

 

[PolyHedral]

exactly when does 1+1 stop equaling 2?

When you stop working in real numbers.