Accomplished Teacher or Mystical Experience?

[Windwalker]

Ok, I try not to add non-materialistic elements which I don't think can be justified.

The problem with keeping it all just material reductionism, is it becomes so literalistic there is no poetry or breadth to explore truth beyond a rational analytic. That view of life as ultimate truth is an unreality. To try to say, "Don't talk of God because there is no evidence to justify that," is only appealing to the mind which can't use metaphors to speak of something that transcends analytical thought. (Not saying that's you, just speaking in general).

The stillness allows one to become detached from the noise created by the ego and subconscious mind. You become more of an observer than an actor. Like watching a movie, the self no longer exists.

Yeah, that's part of it, but not the whole reality of it. The Witness state, which is what you are describing is powerful, but it's not the destination. It's the opening or the beginning. The self certainly continues to exist, by the way, just as your body does. What shifts is the ego is no longer the subject, the eyes you see out of, but an object of your awareness instead. The result of this is a considerably less investment in all its concerns and desires. You learn to manage it as part of you, not what it previously did which is define you.

What higher truth? The reality seems to me there is no "higher" truth. There is only what we experience.

Truth is a matter of perspective. If you have moved into higher levels of perspective, the truth you perceive is also higher truths, as a result. You see more than just the narrow tunnel vision of the egoic self.

Sure the ego can consciously "imagine" a mystical experience. I suppose it's icky because it is whatever you want it to be. You're no longer the actor or observer, you become the director. There's no more mystery.

This sounds more like a manipulation of phenomena. I would not say after the Witness state we become a "director", but rather a full participant in Reality. This Reality is not just a mere extension of yourself. It is seeing yourself and Reality "as it is", and responding accordingly, with dance and song, which cannot be explained in analytical terms.

From a wonderful essay I can't find online anymore, Professor Conrad Hyers wrote,

Our situation calls to mind a backstage interview with Anna Pavlova, the dancer. Following an illustrious and moving performance, she was asked the meaning of the dance. She replied, “If I could say it, do you think I should have danced it?” To give dance a literal meaning would be to reduce dancing to something else. It would lose its capacity to involve the whole person. And one would miss all the subtle nuances and delicate shadings and rich polyvalences of the dance itself.​

You mean vs the greater illusionary states? Is there an ultimate reality behind all the curtains? I don't know.

Yes there is, and I do know. However, let's be clear this "Ultimate Reality" is not a static thing which you can set out to explain though the tools of science and reason, but rather a living, dynamic unfolding of Life that is ever before us.

You look past one curtain to only, eventually, discover another. At this point, whatever my experience, I'm only expecting to discover the next curtain.

That Ultimate Reality is a constant unfolding, of course. But it's experience and perception is one uncluttered by illusions of the mind. You see the world before you now? It's that same world, but it's one we aren't seeing with our eyes closed to it. It's seeing what you've always seen, but for the first time. And it's Joy.

You allow it? Sounds like a bit of control.

If you consider surrender control...... If I destroy the damn that held back the water, am I really controlling the water? Or am I simply getting crap out of the way in order to release it. That to me is giving up control and simply letting Reality flow freely.

I find that exposing myself to ideas, knowledge, images, experiences, rituals can influence the subconscious noise. Immerse yourself into whichever belief system you want/like.

Oh sure, no doubt at all. We are learning to not believe all our narratives and let them go.

I think this explains the mystical, religious experience of a lot of people.

Again, why do you need to "explain" mystical experience? What's that about? Do you need to justify it to your rational mind? If so, let's talk about that....

To me it's like any other experience. Something one is not conscious in control of. These are fun. There's nothing wrong with them as long as we don't become attached to them.

Then I suspect you view these as "entertainment". In which case, I don't know what to say. Going to a movie is fun and informative too. But they generally don't lead to an entire transformation of the mind and body and soul and change every single aspect of your life. If your mystical experiences are the former, I'd suggest you may not have really opened the door to them yet. Seeing stuff and "wow" feelings are not what they are about at all.

It you see this place of stillness as the ultimate truth, maybe. Beyond that there is nothing, a void. No truth, no self, no being.

Oh, but that's not true at all in my thinking, or experience. "The Void", is not a blank with no truth, self or being. These are badly misunderstood terms which leads people to imagine nihilism. Nothing could be further from the truth. What is beyond Stillness, is Joy. Life, Being, Presence. Love. Freedom. That is anything but "nothing". Though it is "no-thing" in the sense it is not an object one can define and examine, it is all-things as well. "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Form is not other than emptiness; emptiness is not other than form". Ultimate Reality is "just this".

I suppose I have to admit some attachment to struggle, drama, illusion. A preference for illusion over nothing if nothing is really the ultimate truth.

And that seems to be the problem, I'd guess. You view Ultimate Reality as nihilism. It isn't. It's Joy.

So as I see it, you seek truth, find nothing and become free to create whatever truth/illusion you like.

That's off. I can only explain it in one in terms like this; you fully participate with the unfolding of life, as a songster, a dancer, a human being, alive in this unspeakable satchitananda. That participation allows Reality to move through you, and to you from all other forms. You are Creation itself in this body with all other bodies.

 

[Whitestone]

I was lost in looking to others' teachings as well as in attempting to divulge mysticism; both are a dead end. It wasn't until I came to fully embrace the Bible as the Word of God that all things became clear and I see the Face of Jesus Christ Shining constantly before me lighting my way. And now I have His Eternal Life and shall never die.

(2Ti 3:15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
(2Ti 3:16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(2Ti 3:17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

(2Co 4:6) For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(Joh 11:26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

May this Blessing be upon you all

 

[Nakosis]

The problem with keeping it all just material reductionism, is it becomes so literalistic there is no poetry or breadth to explore truth beyond a rational analytic. That view of life as ultimate truth is an unreality. To try to say, "Don't talk of God because there is no evidence to justify that," is only appealing to the mind which can't use metaphors to speak of something that transcends analytical thought. (Not saying that's you, just speaking in general).


Yeah, that's part of it, but not the whole reality of it. The Witness state, which is what you are describing is powerful, but it's not the destination. It's the opening or the beginning. The self certainly continues to exist, by the way, just as your body does. What shifts is the ego is no longer the subject, the eyes you see out of, but an object of your awareness instead. The result of this is a considerably less investment in all its concerns and desires. You learn to manage it as part of you, not what it previously did which is define you.


Truth is a matter of perspective. If you have moved into higher levels of perspective, the truth you perceive is also higher truths, as a result. You see more than just the narrow tunnel vision of the egoic self.

Ok,

This sounds more like a manipulation of phenomena. I would not say after the Witness state we become a "director", but rather a full participant in Reality. This Reality is not just a mere extension of yourself. It is seeing yourself and Reality "as it is", and responding accordingly, with dance and song, which cannot be explained in analytical terms.

From a wonderful essay I can't find online anymore, Professor Conrad Hyers wrote,

Our situation calls to mind a backstage interview with Anna Pavlova, the dancer. Following an illustrious and moving performance, she was asked the meaning of the dance. She replied, “If I could say it, do you think I should have danced it?” To give dance a literal meaning would be to reduce dancing to something else. It would lose its capacity to involve the whole person. And one would miss all the subtle nuances and delicate shadings and rich polyvalences of the dance itself.​

Yes, so is this what gives you the icky feeling? I was agreeing with your previous statement. Your response seems to be implying this is a good thing?

Yes there is, and I do know. However, let's be clear this "Ultimate Reality" is not a static thing which you can set out to explain though the tools of science and reason, but rather a living, dynamic unfolding of Life that is ever before us.

This unfolding of life is the illusion. It is not ultimate reality. How is this any different from a materialist view? Sorry, we seem to be talking from different angles. This goes back to my earlier point though. The mystical experience is something internalized. There's some commonality but the source is internal.

That Ultimate Reality is a constant unfolding, of course. But it's experience and perception is one uncluttered by illusions of the mind. You see the world before you now? It's that same world, but it's one we aren't seeing with our eyes closed to it. It's seeing what you've always seen, but for the first time. And it's Joy.

And after that? I just see it as another illusion which hasn't been realized yet. If you're getting joy from it now, great. I just expect at some point you'll find another curtain to look behind.

If you consider surrender control...... If I destroy the damn that held back the water, am I really controlling the water? Or am I simply getting crap out of the way in order to release it. That to me is giving up control and simply letting Reality flow freely.

Yes, in a way. You are responsible for the flowing or non-flowing of the water. You are the dam, you are the control, you are the water. It's all you. You're just choosing not to take conscious control. You are just no longer holding back the unconscious flow.

Oh sure, no doubt at all. We are learning to not believe all our narratives and let them go.

Or create them and afterwards release them to our subconscious flow.

Again, why do you need to "explain" mystical experience? What's that about? Do you need to justify it to your rational mind? If so, let's talk about that....

Knowledge is power. To understand how something works is to gain control over it.

Then I suspect you view these as "entertainment". In which case, I don't know what to say. Going to a movie is fun and informative too. But they generally don't lead to an entire transformation of the mind and body and soul and change every single aspect of your life. If your mystical experiences are the former, I'd suggest you may not have really opened the door to them yet. Seeing stuff and "wow" feelings are not what they are about at all.

I disagree, it is what it is all about. I think you were the one who said we were already enlightened? Then why do you think we find ourselves here? Why the struggle, suffering, the drama, pain?

The answer is because it is actually what we want. We want the illusion. We've just forgotten why. You pull back all of the curtains, see where we started and realize why we left that state in the first place.

Oh, but that's not true at all in my thinking, or experience. "The Void", is not a blank with no truth, self or being. These are badly misunderstood terms which leads people to imagine nihilism. Nothing could be further from the truth. What is beyond Stillness, is Joy. Life, Being, Presence. Love. Freedom. That is anything but "nothing". Though it is "no-thing" in the sense it is not an object one can define and examine, it is all-things as well. "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Form is not other than emptiness; emptiness is not other than form". Ultimate Reality is "just this".

It's just another illusion. Lets accept there is a common truth. Something shared and not just an interalized experience. In which case you will find yourself beyond even this illusion.

And that seems to be the problem, I'd guess. You view Ultimate Reality as nihilism. It isn't. It's Joy.

I just know where the path you're on leads. If you are happy where you are at, stay there.

That's off. I can only explain it in one in terms like this; you fully participate with the unfolding of life, as a songster, a dancer, a human being, alive in this unspeakable satchitananda. That participation allows Reality to move through you, and to you from all other forms. You are Creation itself in this body with all other bodies.

I say we are free to create...
You say it's off, then you say I, we are creation itself.

If we really are creation itself, why wouldn't we be free to create?

I suppose I'm saying this ultimate reality you experience is also a creation. Pass the last curtain, there is no mystery.

 

[Sunstone]

Genuine mystical experiences tend to subvert -- rather than confirm -- all teachings about them.

Therefore, the best teachings tend to recognize that fact -- as do, for instance, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao Teh Ching, and many other writings.

 

[Windwalker]

I was lost in looking to others' teachings as well as in attempting to divulge mysticism; both are a dead end.

For you, perhaps. Not a dead end for many others.

It wasn't until I came to fully embrace the Bible as the Word of God that all things became clear and I see the Face of Jesus Christ Shining constantly before me lighting my way. And now I have His Eternal Life and shall never die.

I'm not exactly sure how you can come to that realization without a mystical experience. Are you sure it wasn't just you finding hope in your emotions and investing yourself in that? That's fine, but that's not where you stop, of course. "I believe" is not the same as "I know", which is the result of direct mystical experience.

 

[Whitestone]

Hi Windwalker. My conversion in Christ was contrary to everything I knew and held dear, let alone emotionally wanted or expected. I lost my wife and children and home when I opened my heart to receiving the very person of Christ into my heart, my body. That didn't fit her understanding of things... I stand corrected if your term "mystical experience" includes receiving the Spirit of Christ. After receiving Christ into my Temple Body, He began revealing all things of Himself to me out of His Word. Having received certain gifts, unctions, knowledge, assurances, revelations... things that you read about what Christians in the NT experienced receiving from Christ. It isn't mystical to us. It is the Kingdom of God. Our Home.

 

[Fool]

Given the subjectivity of faith and religion, is it best to learn religious and/or spiritual knowledge from an accomplished teacher or through mystical experiences? Why?

From which would you consider knowledge to be more valid? Why?

For the purposes of this thread, we will define "accomplished teacher" as someone that is heralded and held in high regard for his spiritual and/or religious knowledge by adherents of one or more religious organizations, i.e. a sage, and we will define "mystical experience" as personal insight gained through individual study, meditative practice, prayer, and sense experience.

Bonus question (ala @Sunstone): As one who has learned exclusively or primarily from either one, is it acceptable to dismiss or invalidate the knowledge of another of the same or similar faith? On what foundation?

meditation, or venturing inward, introspection is always the best guide.

a teacher can only point in the direction, we have to grasp it for ourselves, walk it ourselves. just as the teacher had to walk it, or grasp it. to know thyself must be experienced by the self for self.


know thyself


Psalm 46:10
Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the other self(heathen), I will be exalted in the self(earth).


Luke 11:52
52 Woe to you experts in religious law! You have taken away the key to knowledge! You did not go in yourselves, and you hindered those who were going in.”



Hebrews 8:11
“And there will be no need at all for each one to teach his countryman or each one to teach his brother saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ since they will all know me, from the least to the greatest.

 

[Nakosis]

Genuine mystical experiences tend to subvert -- rather than confirm -- all teachings about them.

Therefore, the best teachings tend to recognize that fact -- as do, for instance, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao Teh Ching, and many other writings.

Subvert from what? L Ron Hubbard used to talk about the subversion of his teachings as well.

Someone has to originate the theology, philosophy, ideology, from their personal experience/understanding.

For whatever reason they become seem as masters, teachers, prophets. Did they just subvert some prior ideology and their version became popular?

Who is the master of our internal experience? Someone who lived and died 2000 years ago?

Shall I say you experience and understanding is wrong? You knowledge of the ultimate truth is wrong? Mine of course is correct...

If you are happy with your understand of life, truth, God, I guess that is good. I just don't think is is necessary that I have to agree with it for it to be correct for you.

What I find truth to be, what I find to be correct, beneficial, I don't know that it's necessary that anyone else agree with it either. My internal experience of being, who I am.

I suppose I argue for my truth, not to get it accepted by others, but so folks will maybe realize that our internal, spiritual experience is individual, unique. Not something that the rest of the world needs to accept as their truth.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Hard to say. I was always exposed to Christian belief. So I experienced something that I took to be being in the presence of God. Jesus lifting the burden of sin.

Later I followed a Guru who taught me to hear divine music.

I started following Druidic practices and saw, plain as day, spirits dancing on each blade of grass.

In meditation, I found a place that was void of self.

The reality of what I experience is personal, but would I have even had them if I hadn't been guided to them?

You are told you will experience something and you do. Was it the right experience? Does it matter?

In this, you missed the second part of my question, which asks "Would it matter...if [indoctrination] was the result of a discovery after many years of seeking after the fact? In other words, does the experience have spiritual meaning if it took place prior to being educated on the meaning of that experience?

I was never told I would experience anything, however, I had an experience at a young age that took place many years before I had any sort of understanding what had happened to me. For me, it was indeed the right experience, because at the time, my view of what transpired was completely unbiased by any sort of (relatable) religious indoctrination, and that experience set me upon a spiritual journey that led me to where I am today.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Accomplished teacher = Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ = author of books, not so often, mystical experiences
= Read the scriptures, pray over what you read

What books did Jesus Christ author?

 

[SalixIncendium]

There is a benefit to these experiences in terms of the quality of life. However I suspect it is just us, expanding our control over our conscious experience.

I'll reject the term "control" here. If you are controlling, that is the ego. It is not something we create, but rather is the prior condition of our consciousness before we muck it all up with the created objects of the mind we then look to as reality. I always say to people, you already are Enlightened. You're just not enlightened to the fact of that yet. Anyone who experiences this is struck by how it was never other to us, but there the whole time. You don't achieve or control it. You allow it.

You allow it? Sounds like a bit of control.

If you consider surrender control...... If I destroy the damn that held back the water, am I really controlling the water? Or am I simply getting crap out of the way in order to release it. That to me is giving up control and simply letting Reality flow freely.

Yes, in a way. You are responsible for the flowing or non-flowing of the water. You are the dam, you are the control, you are the water. It's all you. You're just choosing not to take conscious control. You are just no longer holding back the unconscious flow.

I must concur that I reject the term "control" when it comes to mystical experience. In my experiences, I merely an observer, not an active participant. In my experience, each time I attempt to gain control by way of injecting intellectual understanding of a mystical experience during the experience itself, the experience ends abruptly.

 

[Nakosis]

In this, you missed the second part of my question, which asks "Would it matter...if [indoctrination] was the result of a discovery after many years of seeking after the fact? In other words, does the experience have spiritual meaning if it took place prior to being educated on the meaning of that experience?

I was never told I would experience anything, however, I had an experience at a young age that took place many years before I had any sort of understanding what had happened to me. For me, it was indeed the right experience, because at the time, my view of what transpired was completely unbiased by any sort of (relatable) religious indoctrination, and that experience set me upon a spiritual journey that led me to where I am today.

Yes, same thing happen to me. Well, I don't know if it was exactly the same experience but the same results.

It doesn't seem common for everyone, but it seems common enough.

So yes, you trusted your experience and where it led you and I trusted mine.

What I question is not your experience, your journey that you were consciously aware of. It's the ability of the subconscious mind to keep track of many bits of information without your conscious awareness. Many unconscious sources of influence which perhaps filled in parts of your experience, as it does with our everyday lives.

Me, I was blinded by a bright golden light. I was in my room, I was awake. I felt was presences of a "guardian spirit". Who took from me, all of my burden, guilt, my responsibility to decide upon my own path. I understood, with deep conviction that my life from that point on would be completely guided. Of course it was nothing like what I expected a "religious" experience to be.

And, every step from that point seemed to reinforce that. Things would happen, I found myself coming across numerous individuals who taught me a greater understanding of the truth of what I experienced. I even found someone who taught me who to see this light whenever I wanted.

The path was set before me without any conscious effort of my own. On my way to realizing the ultimate truth.

So here we are, both on this path to ultimate truth and understanding. If this is the case, shouldn't that that truth, that understanding we both were shown, be the same truth? Shouldn't our message be the same? Shouldn't it be the same as Jesus or Buddha or Krishna?

From past experience with others like yourself, I find this seldom to be the outcome.

Would you like to correct my understanding of the ultimate truth? Shall I correct yours? A game I've played often with many of the "enlightened".

Unless you can somehow prove the authority of your enlightenment, I suspect we will likely find ourselves at an impasse.

 

[Nakosis]

I must concur that I reject the term "control" when it comes to mystical experience. In my experiences, I merely an observer, not an active participant. In my experience, each time I attempt to gain control by way of injecting intellectual understanding of a mystical experience during the experience itself, the experience ends abruptly.

You must have faith, control will come when you are ready for it.

 

[sayak83]

The subconscious mind is much more aware of the world around you than your conscious self. Of course these mystical experiences can be very insightful to the conscious self. However since this is created in the subconscious mind, we are consciously cut off from knowing exactly what all the influences were behind the mystical experience.

No matter the influence, if it provides insight into oneself and the world, it belongs to the class of knowledge generating experiences.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Yes, same thing happen to me. Well, I don't know if it was exactly the same experience but the same results.

It doesn't seem common for everyone, but it seems common enough.

So yes, you trusted your experience and where it led you and I trusted mine.

What I question is not your experience, your journey that you were consciously aware of. It's the ability of the subconscious mind to keep track of many bits of information without your conscious awareness. Many unconscious sources of influence which perhaps filled in parts of your experience, as it does with our everyday lives.

I was around 13 years old at the time, and my experience was far separated from the teachings of my upbringing in the Catholic faith. As I stated in an earlier post, I was practically a clean slate when it comes to any possible influences of my experience.

Me, I was blinded by a bright golden light. I was in my room, I was awake. I felt was presences of a "guardian spirit". Who took from me, all of my burden, guilt, my responsibility to decide upon my own path. I understood, with deep conviction that my life from that point on would be completely guided. Of course it was nothing like what I expected a "religious" experience to be.

I'm afraid my experience was much less spectacular than yours, though much more difficult to explain.

And, every step from that point seemed to reinforce that. Things would happen, I found myself coming across numerous individuals who taught me a greater understanding of the truth of what I experienced. I even found someone who taught me who to see this light whenever I wanted.

The path was set before me without any conscious effort of my own. On my way to realizing the ultimate truth.

The difference for me was that nothing really happened after my experience, probably because I wasn't ready for it. Or at least ready to understand it. I sort of wrote it off as a "glitch" in my brain, and didn't even think about it for many years, though I spent most of my adult life agnostic, but fascinated by religion and the unknown, and driven to study. It wasn't until much later and years into my study and speaking with people that I began to realize that others had similar experiences, and that mine likely wasn't just a "glitch."

So here we are, both on this path to ultimate truth and understanding. If this is the case, shouldn't that that truth, that understanding we both were shown, be the same truth? Shouldn't our message be the same? Shouldn't it be the same as Jesus or Buddha or Krishna?

From past experience with others like yourself, I find this seldom to be the outcome.

I suppose that would depend on what we are ready to learn and how far we are willing to go attain truth.

Would you like to correct my understanding of the ultimate truth? Shall I correct yours? A game I've played often with many of the "enlightened".

Unless you can somehow prove the authority of your enlightenment, I suspect we will likely find ourselves at an impasse.

Apparently, my brand of enlightenment is different then yours. Mine is not to judge or correct anyone with regard to mystical experience, but to share experiences and compare notes. There is nothing to be at an impasse about. I'm too old for such games.

 

[Muffled]

Given the subjectivity of faith and religion, is it best to learn religious and/or spiritual knowledge from an accomplished teacher or through mystical experiences? Why?

From which would you consider knowledge to be more valid? Why?

For the purposes of this thread, we will define "accomplished teacher" as someone that is heralded and held in high regard for his spiritual and/or religious knowledge by adherents of one or more religious organizations, i.e. a sage, and we will define "mystical experience" as personal insight gained through individual study, meditative practice, prayer, and sense experience.

Bonus question (ala @Sunstone): As one who has learned exclusively or primarily from either one, is it acceptable to dismiss or invalidate the knowledge of another of the same or similar faith? On what foundation?

I believe I have always chosen my primary source religious texts. Understanding the texts can be assisted both by teachers and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Muffled]

it is good but not necessary to have "accomplished teacher" who would direct you but it still your own experience that counts. Your experience will tell you "to dismiss or invalidate the knowledge of another of the same or similar faith".

I believe our own experiences should match up with others at some point. If it doesn't then I would think it could be questionable. For instance the idea that Jesus will return to Missouri, USA has no grounds in the Bible and is in fact contrary to what the Bible says and the Spirit of God in me does not accept it. I would say the person who came up with that had a bogus revelation.

 

[Muffled]

If I was climbing Mount Everest, I'd hire a sherpa guide. In sampradaya/parampara, that's the role of the teacher.

I believe sherpas and teachers tell us about things in the past but Jesus as a guide tells us about the present and future as well. You just can't get a better guide than the one who knows everything.

 

[socharlie]

I believe our own experiences should match up with others at some point. If it doesn't then I would think it could be questionable. For instance the idea that Jesus will return to Missouri, USA has no grounds in the Bible and is in fact contrary to what the Bible says and the Spirit of God in me does not accept it. I would say the person who came up with that had a bogus revelation.

you may not fully understand this:
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What books did Jesus Christ author?

The 66 of the Holy Bible. Read John 1 for more on this.