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Accusations of Pauline Christianity people on Jesus

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
" Islamic position "

Here is the Islamic position, right?:
30 Verses of the Holy Quran which prove the Natural Death of Jesus ...
Islam Ahmadiyya › Library › Jesus - A Humble Prophet of God

Proof: This means that Jesus Christ(as) did not suffer an accursed death by dying on the cross.

Right?

Regards
Whether Jesus is resurrected physically or metaphorically can be debated within Christian circles though it is not an easy debate. It is not a debate for children. Perhaps right now most Christians think it is not debatable, however it can easily be considered debatable in the coming century. Christians have trends, and our thinking changes century to century. What we thought last century is different from this century. Our thoughts and opinions can change about the nature of resurrection, because we do not have unchangeable paths. We can change, but the resurrection of Jesus is a minor difference with Muslims. It is minor relative to our other differences.

The Islamic position also is that Muhammad follows after Jesus and corrects the gospel fallen into corruption, and that is really the main difference from Christians. This difference between Muslims and Christians is a difficult difference. We have a difficult history, too. We often view History differently. Other items such as resurrection and trinity are minor items between the two religions, although they are debated more frequently. Still, the mainstream view on resurrection can change. It would be a minor change though. Would this really matter to Muslims?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
1. First, Jesus never died on the Cross even then Pauline Christians say that Jesus died, right?
Look, I'm no fan of Christianity, Pauline version or otherwise. But yeah, Jesus died.
Yeshua- did not die on the Cross, but died later, a natural death, right?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
" Islamic position "

Here is the Islamic position, right?:
30 Verses of the Holy Quran which prove the Natural Death of Jesus ...
Islam Ahmadiyya › Library › Jesus - A Humble Prophet of God
Whether Jesus is resurrected physically or metaphorically can be debated within Christian circles though it is not an easy debate. It is not a debate for children. Perhaps right now most Christians think it is not debatable, however it can easily be considered debatable in the coming century. Christians have trends, and our thinking changes century to century. What we thought last century is different from this century. Our thoughts and opinions can change about the nature of resurrection, because we do not have unchangeable paths. We can change, but the resurrection of Jesus is a minor difference with Muslims. It is minor relative to our other differences.

The Islamic position also is that Muhammad follows after Jesus and corrects the gospel fallen into corruption, and that is really the main difference from Christians. This difference between Muslims and Christians is a difficult difference. We have a difficult history, too. We often view History differently. Other items such as resurrection and trinity are minor items between the two religions, although they are debated more frequently. Still, the mainstream view on resurrection can change. It would be a minor change though. Would this really matter to Muslims?
"Would this really matter to Muslims? "

Islam/Quran/Muslims have no differences with Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, but the Christianity people follow Paul, they don't follow Yeshua in his teachings and deeds, right?

Regards
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
1. First, Jesus never died on the Cross even then Pauline Christians say that Jesus died, right?

Yeshua- did not die on the Cross, but died later, a natural death, right?

Regards
Why are you asking me again the same question that I already just answered? Do you imagine that by repeating your question, I will somehow change my mind? He died from crucifixion.
 

The Spirit of Truth

The Spirit of Truth
During COVID shutdowns i took the opportunity to go searching for external evidence that supports the Bible. Historical sources are very hard to deny and one of them on this very subject is below...


The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Jesus, his execution by Pontius Pilate, and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (written c. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.[1]
Tacitus was a patriotic Roman senator.[51][52] His writings show no sympathy towards Christians, or knowledge of who their leader was.​
Sed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Chrestianos appellabat. auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. igitur primum correpti qui fatebantur, deinde indicio eorum multitudo ingens haud proinde in crimine incendii quam odio humani generis convicti sunt.[14]
But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.​


The above should not be confused with what is said to be a fraudulent letter written by Pontius Pilot

Letter of Pilate to Tiberius​

The Letter of Pontius Pilate, Which He Wrote to the Roman Emperor, Concerning Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Cæsar the emperor, greeting.​
Upon Jesus Christ, whose case I had clearly set forth to you in my last, at length by the will of the people a bitter punishment has been inflicted, myself being in a sort unwilling and rather afraid. A man, by Hercules, so pious and strict, no age has ever had nor will have. But wonderful were the efforts of the people themselves, and the unanimity of all the scribes and chief men and elders, to crucify this ambassador of truth, notwithstanding that their own prophets, and after our manner the sibyls, warned them against it: and supernatural signs appeared while he was hanging, and, in the opinion of philosophers, threatened destruction to the whole world. His disciples are flourishing, in their work and the regulation of their lives not belying their master; yea, in his name most beneficent. Had I not been afraid of the rising of a sedition among the people, who were just on the point of breaking out, perhaps this man would still have been alive to us; although, urged more by fidelity to your dignity than induced by my own wishes, I did not according to my strength resist that innocent blood free from the whole charge brought against it, but unjustly, through the malignity of men, should be sold and suffer, yet, as the Scriptures signify, to their own destruction. Farewell. 28th March.​


What is 100% certain is that historically Jesus Christ really existed and was crucified. Of those things there is absolutely no doubt. What we cannot prove beyond doubt using external evidence is whether or not He (Jesus) rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. That requires faith and the internal biblical evidence.
Thanks greatly for that information
 

The Spirit of Truth

The Spirit of Truth
During COVID shutdowns i took the opportunity to go searching for external evidence that supports the Bible. Historical sources are very hard to deny and one of them on this very subject is below...


The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Jesus, his execution by Pontius Pilate, and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (written c. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.[1]
Tacitus was a patriotic Roman senator.[51][52] His writings show no sympathy towards Christians, or knowledge of who their leader was.​
Sed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Chrestianos appellabat. auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. igitur primum correpti qui fatebantur, deinde indicio eorum multitudo ingens haud proinde in crimine incendii quam odio humani generis convicti sunt.[14]
But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.​


The above should not be confused with what is said to be a fraudulent letter written by Pontius Pilot

Letter of Pilate to Tiberius​

The Letter of Pontius Pilate, Which He Wrote to the Roman Emperor, Concerning Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Cæsar the emperor, greeting.​
Upon Jesus Christ, whose case I had clearly set forth to you in my last, at length by the will of the people a bitter punishment has been inflicted, myself being in a sort unwilling and rather afraid. A man, by Hercules, so pious and strict, no age has ever had nor will have. But wonderful were the efforts of the people themselves, and the unanimity of all the scribes and chief men and elders, to crucify this ambassador of truth, notwithstanding that their own prophets, and after our manner the sibyls, warned them against it: and supernatural signs appeared while he was hanging, and, in the opinion of philosophers, threatened destruction to the whole world. His disciples are flourishing, in their work and the regulation of their lives not belying their master; yea, in his name most beneficent. Had I not been afraid of the rising of a sedition among the people, who were just on the point of breaking out, perhaps this man would still have been alive to us; although, urged more by fidelity to your dignity than induced by my own wishes, I did not according to my strength resist that innocent blood free from the whole charge brought against it, but unjustly, through the malignity of men, should be sold and suffer, yet, as the Scriptures signify, to their own destruction. Farewell. 28th March.​


What is 100% certain is that historically Jesus Christ really existed and was crucified. Of those things there is absolutely no doubt. What we cannot prove beyond doubt using external evidence is whether or not He (Jesus) rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. That requires faith and the internal biblical evidence.
Thanks greatly for that information Adam. My assumption for why there is so little evidence that Jesus really existed, was that who would have bothered? Only Jesus' disciples really. However, they, along with what Jesus really taught, were wiped out in 72CE, because Jesus told them that some would not see death before He returned. And so, none would leave Jerusalem when the Romans invaded, for fear they would miss Jesus' return. God, I believe, initiated this, so that the Nazarene Christians would be martyred to prevent them from contradicting Paul's adulterated version of both the message of Jesus, and the adulteration of the Law of Moses. The reason for this I have stated a number of times in my replies. However, briefly, God needed to replace the physical separation He achieved by separating Japheth and Shem, sending them to opposite sides of the Mediterranean Sea, so that Ham/satan could follow only one or the other. When the Mediterranean Sea was no longer a protective barrier, God needed to provide theological separation of His two peoples so that satan would be deceived into believing that these pagan, barbarian, Christians, would not go to the rescue of the Jews if satan attempted to annihilate them. But they did in 1939 and so satan was finally grounded, which means he can no longer get around, curtesy of his host, to teach his disciples any further evil. JC2
 

The Spirit of Truth

The Spirit of Truth
Thanks greatly for that information Adam. My assumption for why there is so little evidence that Jesus really existed, was that who would have bothered? Only Jesus' disciples really. However, they, along with what Jesus really taught, were wiped out in 72CE, because Jesus told them that some would not see death before He returned. And so, none would leave Jerusalem when the Romans invaded, for fear they would miss Jesus' return. God, I believe, initiated this, so that the Nazarene Christians would be martyred to prevent them from contradicting Paul's adulterated version of both the message of Jesus, and the adulteration of the Law of Moses. The reason for this I have stated a number of times in my replies. However, briefly, God needed to replace the physical separation He achieved by separating Japheth and Shem, sending them to opposite sides of the Mediterranean Sea, so that Ham/satan could follow only one or the other. When the Mediterranean Sea was no longer a protective barrier, God needed to provide theological separation of His two peoples so that satan would be deceived into believing that these pagan, barbarian, Christians, would not go to the rescue of the Jews if satan attempted to annihilate them. But they did in 1939 and so satan was finally grounded, which means he can no longer get around, curtesy of his host, to teach his disciples any further evil. JC2
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
"Would this really matter to Muslims? "

Islam/Quran/Muslims have no differences with Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, but the Christianity people follow Paul, they don't follow Yeshua in his teachings and deeds, right?

Regards
There many unspoken secret teachings that are not shared with protestants or even with many lay catholics. When a priest speaks to you it is something like a parable. Evidence that this is acceptable appears in Mark 4:11-12. Notice how Jesus speaks to the crowd versus his twelve disciples:

Mark 4:11-12 "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them."​

See how you and I are not guaranteed clear instruction at all?

This Mark 4:11-12 is figuratively like the Garden of Eden, borrowing language from the story of Adam and Eve: "that seeing they may see and not perceive" is similar to "lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" (Genesis 3:22) You and I are on the outside, like Adam and Eve who are cast out. Guarding the way to garden there is a deadly guardian (the parables) preventing people from reaching the Tree of Life (the real teachings). The existence of this verse in Mark 4:11-12 informs us is that the church has many secrets from us. We likely do not know its teachings.

Every bit of the NT is exhausting, but for some of us there is no choice but to pick through it. Always there is some surprise, and the meanings change every time you learn just a little bit more. Its exactly like a puzzle.
...but the Christianity people follow Paul, they don't follow Yeshua in his teachings and deeds, right?

Paul is merely one of many voices. If Paul or even Jesus says something it can be reconsidered, because in the gospels Jesus often speaks cleverly and also tells us that he will not teach us but that we must be taught by the holy spirit. Therefore no, we don't have to follow any particular apostle neither Paul or anybody. However there is no telling what information is kept away from us by the church.

John 16:12-13 "I have yet many things to say unto you, but...when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: ...."​

Islam and Muslims claim not to need anything from Christians. You have a book written in your language specifically to you. I do not expect you to understand the NT or what Paul says or what Jesus says in the NT. You are one person and cannot be everywhere at one time. I don't think you understand the connection between Jesus and Paul, and I don't think they are in disagreement.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Neither did Paul/Saul Know Yeshua nor nor Yeshua know Paul/Saul so Paul/Saul was a fake Apostle to him and became as such through a fraudulent
Vision, please, right?

Regards
___________
"I keep coming across a “sticky” misconception that God (specifically, Jesus) changed the name of an important figure we now typically refer to as “Saint Paul.”
In a recent sermon, I heard: “Just like Saul the persecutor can become Paul the apostle, God is gracious to us.” On an exam, one of my brightest students wrote: “It is Saul, who is re-named as Paul, who is the primary messenger of the gospel.” A church member asked me, “Wait, you mean Jesus didn’t change Saul’s name to Paul on the Damascus Road?”
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Islam and Muslims claim not to need anything from Christians. You have a book written in your language specifically to you. I do not expect you to understand the NT or what Paul says or what Jesus says in the NT. You are one person and cannot be everywhere at one time. I don't think you understand the connection between Jesus and Paul, and I don't think they are in disagreement.
None the less, I have read both NT and OT from cover to cover, please, right?
If I can read it, I can have my own opinion about them, and can share and discuss it, as do others have, right, please?

Regards
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
None the less, I have read both NT and OT from cover to cover, please, right?
If I can read it, I can have my own opinion about them, and can share and discuss it, as do others have, right, please?

Regards
You are one of the few that are willing to put up with me, so yes of course you could. Its fair in Religious Debates.

I merely point out that we are missing a lot of information, and I point out that only the seeds of pomegranates are edible. Even though you have read the NT and Tanach cover to cover (I am impressed), these do not meet with your approval. Perhaps you have been eating the shell.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
None the less, I have read both NT and OT from cover to cover, please, right?
If I can read it, I can have my own opinion about them, and can share and discuss it, as do others have, right, please?

Regards
You can certainly have your opinion about them. But does your opinion count like a scholar's? Absolutely not. Many people read books and have terrible comprehension.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Even though you have read the NT and Tanach cover to cover (I am impressed), these do not meet with your approval.
I got to know that NT had no approval of (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ( who was neither a Zealot, nor he belonged to the Zionism people nor to the Judaism people), please, right?
Is there a harm to the simple minded, none the less sincere, Christianity people if they know truly that Saul of Tarsus aka Paul ,as I understood, defrauded them, so they search and research afresh to become true followers of Yeshua, please, right?

Regards
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I got to know that NT had no approval of (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ( who was neither a Zealot, nor he belonged to the Zionism people nor to the Judaism people), please, right?
Is there a harm to the simple minded, none the less sincere, Christianity people if they know truly that Saul of Tarsus aka Paul ,as I understood, defrauded them, so they search and research afresh to become true followers of Yeshua, please, right?

Regards
I don't think that its simple at all, but everyone likes simple explanations. Remember also that the temple is destroyed in 33AD by Titus, yet nobody talks about it in any of the letters and books. Imagine Mecca was destroyed by the Romans (or somebody). Imagine if it were your most important place. Imagine if Mecca had been ripped apart and destroyed and the great stone smashed. Don't you think that this would be mourned by you every year forever? Yet its ignored by the NT writers. Don't you think you would weep endlessly? Yet the gospels only predict the destruction of the temple. All of Judaism was decimated, forever changed; but the NT barely even notices it. For example Acts doesn't mention this significant event. Almost none of the NT talks about it, almost as if it was insignificant; but it was significant. So your troubles don't begin with Paul but the gospels. Remember that Paul is probably not one person but several, because it is common in those times for people to write under the name of someone else. It doesn't make sense to me to think that Paul is the beginner of Christianity. No. He is in concert with the gospel writers.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
N
Wrong. Most historians of antiquity, even atheists, believe Jesus was a real person who died through crucifixion.
No. That isn't completely true.

The historical Jesus is far to vague to make such conclusions, but its good you said it was a personal belief however, but certainly not any historical well grounded fact upon which any such belief is based.
 
Imagine if Mecca had been ripped apart and destroyed and the great stone smashed. Don't you think that this would be mourned by you every year forever?

The Qarmaṭians instigated what one scholar termed a "century of terror" in Kufa.[28] They considered the pilgrimage to Mecca a superstition, and once in control of the Bahrayni state, they launched raids along the pilgrim routes crossing the Arabian Peninsula. In 906, they ambushed the pilgrim caravan returning from Mecca and massacred 20,000 pilgrims.[29]

Under al-Jannabi (ruled 923–944), the Qarmaṭians came close to capturing Baghdad in 927, and sacked Mecca in 930. In their attack on Islam's holiest sites, the Qarmatians desecrated the Zamzam Well with corpses of Hajj pilgrims and took the Black Stone from Mecca to Ain Al Kuayba[30] in Qatif.[31][32] Holding the Black Stone to ransom, they forced the Abbasids to pay a huge sum for its return in 952.[33]

The revolution and desecration shocked the Muslim world and humiliated the Abbasids, but little could be done.

 

MayPeaceBeUpOnYou

Active Member
Quran 4-157

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allāh." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain

The biggest difference between Islam and Christianity isn’t if jesus died or not, because the Quran clearly states that he made it appear to some people. The biggest differences is to add partners to the creator. The oneness of god is more important then a prophet dying or not.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Quran 4-157

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allāh." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain

The biggest difference between Islam and Christianity isn’t if jesus died or not, because the Quran clearly states that he made it appear to some people. The biggest differences is to add partners to the creator. The oneness of god is more important then a prophet dying or not.
" The oneness of god is more important than a prophet dying or not. "

Nevertheless, it is important, if people make (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ( who was neither a Zealot, nor he belonged to the Zionism people nor to the Judaism people), god for wrong understanding of the event, please, right?

Regards
 
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