Accusing Others of "Whining"....Should It Be Allowed on RF?

[Revoltingest]

It's a common thing here.
It flared up this very morn. It wasn't pretty.
I say that it's pure hostility.
And those accused take it that way, leading to digression into personal animosity.
We've banned accusations of lying. I propose banning accusations of whining.

What say y'all?

One rule: No whining in this thread.
(Sorry...couldn't resist.)

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

I'd say it depends whether or not these accusations are justified and true. Sometimes, people are describing reality as it is, that's not "whining." That's just calling "pig" a "pig". Other times, people just lie about others "whining" most likely to provoke them, now that's unacceptable. False accusations should be banned.

 

[bobhikes]

You want to in the DIR"s I'm fine with it. In the debate forum's people need thicker skin. Being accused of whining is no big deal. If that is going to make you so angry you derail the thread you probably shouldn't have been in the thread anyway.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Even though I don't like false accusations of whining either I cannot see banning the charge. There are too many bans already.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'd say it depends whether or not these accusations are justified and true. Sometimes, people are describing reality as it is, that's not "whining." That's just calling "pig" a "pig". Other times, people just lie about others "whining" most likely to provoke them, now that's unacceptable. False accusations should be banned.

Accusations of lying aren't allowed even when they're believed
to be justified. This is because the effect of the accusation is
to increase hostilities.
"Whining" appears to have the same effect. What do you see
about it that advances the goals of RF?

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

You want to in the DIR"s I'm fine with it. In the debate forum's people need thicker skin. Being accused of whining is no big deal. If that is going to make you so angry you derail the thread you probably shouldn't have been in the thread anyway.

While I agree with you, sometimes people use cheap tactics like false accusations, lies, deceptions, ad hominem and other designed manipulations and obfuscation PURPOSEFULLY to sabotage the thread and derail the thought processes of other people. Lies and deceptions are unacceptable, in my humble opinion, and they should be penalized [or at least exposed so others don't fall for such traps]. I have no problem with people accusing me for "whining" and/or other things IF what they are saying is true and out of good-intentions, but if someone is making up bull**** and lies about me about "whining" and/or other things WHEN that is unjustified, false and doing so out of malicious intents to provoke me into making mistakes, THEN it's unacceptable.

However, I want them to continue doing so. It'll only come around to bite them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Even though I don't like false accusations of whining either I cannot see banning the charge. There are too many bans already.

Banning accusations of lying has noticeably (to me) improved
the climate on RF. We see far fewer instances of it, with the
consequent defense &/or retaliation, often resulting in more
work for the moderators.
One thread today already blew up because some went there.

 

[SalixIncendium]

It's a common thing here.
It flared up this very morn. It wasn't pretty.
I say that it's pure hostility.
And those accused take it that way, leading to digression into personal animosity.
We've banned accusations of lying. I propose banning accusations of whining.

What say y'all?

One rule: No whining in this thread.
(Sorry...couldn't resist.)

Seems like a silly thing to be whining about...

 

[SalixIncendium]

Seriously though, a line needs to be drawn somewhere, otherwise we'd get to the point where we're moderating terms like "responding in a negative or unsportmanlike fashion."

 

[ChristineM]

It depends, there are a few whiners on RF, sometimes commenting on it can achieve results, sometimes the fat hits the shin.

I see nothing wrong with it and yes, i have been accused of whining but i just consider that sexism, digging at the dumb blonde who does not agree. I laugh inwardly and come back all salvos firing. (Damn that's one secret lost)

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

Accusations of lying aren't allowed even when they're believed
to be justified. This is because the effect of the accusation is
to increase hostilities.
"Whining" appears to have the same effect. What do you see
about it that advances the goals of RF?

If it's bringing to light some truth about reality to us, wouldn't that be extremely beneficial to RF and it's members?

I don't think hostilities are unhealthy and unbeneficial in and out of itself. When it gets out of control and both sides starts to hate each other to their core, then we should do something about it before it gets out of hand. But as long as there are of sufficient level, this kind of friction can lead to healthy rivalry and competition. Remember, where there is smoke, there is fire. That would make RF a better breeding ground for better and more intense debates with rival groups/people who holds hostility towards each others.

 

[bobhikes]

While I agree with you, sometimes people use cheap tactics like false accusations, lies, deceptions, ad hominem and other designed manipulations and obfuscation PURPOSEFULLY to sabotage the thread and derail the thought processes of other people. Lies and deceptions are unacceptable, in my humble opinion, and they should be penalized [or at least exposed so others don't fall for such traps]. I have no problem with people accusing me for "whining" and/or other things IF what they are saying is true and out of good-intentions, but if someone is making up bull**** and lies about me about "whining" and/or other things WHEN that is unjustified, false and doing so out of malicious intents to provoke me into making mistakes, THEN it's unacceptable.

However, I want them to continue doing so. It'll only come around to bite them.

Here's how I see it, we have discussion only threads and Dir threads, both are less used than the actual debate threads because people don't want to be limited. You can easily ignore someone who doesn't respond in a way you like. I do it all the time and the thread doesn't get derailed and they just look foolish if they keep pursuing you.. If the RF moderators put more regulations on the debate forums they would lose more content. If they created an Adult only Debate forum without regulation that would be the one most people would use and of course the one most people would complain about. A lot of people just want others to hear and accept there words without critic but they find they can't reach enough people in the Dir's or discussion forums so they venture into the debate form and complain about everything. In My Opinion.

 

[Revoltingest]

Seriously though, a line needs to be drawn somewhere, otherwise we'd get to the point where we're moderating terms like "responding in a negative or unsportmanlike fashion."

A line was drawn regarding "liar", "lying", etc.
It appears to work well.
There are only so many words that appear to really rankle & derail.
"Whine" is a biggie.

 

[Glaurung]

This very thread topic could be seen as implicit whining.

EDIT: Someone beat me to it, darn.

 

[Revoltingest]

If it's bringing to light some truth about reality to us, wouldn't that be extremely beneficial to RF and it's members?

I don't think hostilities are unhealthy and unbeneficial in and out of itself. When it gets out of control and both sides starts to hate each other to their core, then we should do something about it before it gets out of hand. But as long as there are of sufficient level, this kind of friction can lead to healthy rivalry and competition. Remember, where there is smoke, there is fire. That would make RF a better breeding ground for better and more intense debates with rival groups/people who holds hostility towards each others.

The problem I see is that certain behaviors cause debates to
move from arguing issues to personal attacks upon each other.
Rules are useful to put a damper on hostilities, while encouraging
civil discussion of issues.

Would you advocate returning to being able to call each other liars?

 

[Revoltingest]

This very thread topic could be seen as implicit whining.

The term you're looking for is "meta-whining".

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Funny thing, when I was learning about managing conflict (in an effort to be a better manager of people), one of the most important things that I learned was to stay away from "you," and instead focus on "I." While that may seem egotistical, it really isn't. I know a lot about me, while I can only surmise a bunch about you.

Thus, rather than saying, "you think I'm such-and-such," it is better to say, "I feel hurt by what I've heard." Instead of "you're wrong because..." you may be much better off with "I feel I'm correct because..."

To cut to the chase, however, when someone says "you're whining (again)" they are making statements about what another person is actually feeling, which is something that they cannot know. It could just as easily be a style of writing that grates in the accuser's ear -- that's pretty common, actually.

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

The problem I see is that certain behaviors cause debates to
move from arguing issues to personal attacks upon each other.
Rules are useful to put a damper on hostilities, while encouraging
civil discussion of issues.

Would you advocate returning to being able to call each other liars?

No, because [as I always say] I am not qualified enough to judge whether someone is a liar or truthful, nor do I think anyone else here is. Some people may utilize white lies to artifice against deceivers and their deception, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are inherently habitual liars by nature. I would not advocate that.

I think that instead of banning accusations of "whining", the moderators should take the entire context surrounding it into account. Why is other saying it and/or is it grounded in reality. If it's another wile and cheap tactic to derail thread, sabotage civil discussion and/or intentionally obfuscate others, then FIRST it should be expose to everyone and the one doing it should be penalized to sufficient degree.

Instead of just banning accusation of "whining", we should seek better alternative to keep hostilities blowing out of acceptable proportions. Maybe moderators should get involved in the discussion and bring both sides on common grounds while exposing the truth about both sides rather than letting them degenerate the thread to series of personal attacks.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, because [as I always say] I am not qualified enough to judge whether someone is a liar or truthful, nor do I think anyone else here is. Some people may utilize white lies to artifice against deceivers and their deception, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are inherently habitual liars by nature. I would not advocate that.

I think that instead of banning accusations of "whining", the moderators should take the entire context surrounding it into account. Why is other saying it and/or is it grounded in reality. If it's another wile and cheap tactic to derail thread, sabotage civil discussion and/or intentionally obfuscate others, then FIRST it should be expose to everyone and the one doing it should be penalized to sufficient degree.

Instead of just banning accusation of "whining", we should seek better alternative to keep hostilities blowing out of acceptable proportions. Maybe moderators should get involved in the discussion and bring both sides on common grounds while exposing the truth about both sides rather than letting them degenerate the thread to series of personal attacks.

Moderation is a combination of some codified rules, & judgment
used to ensure preservation of the spirit of the forum when the
rules aren't up to the task.
Accusations of lying & whining are similar in a couple ways....
- Neither advances the goals of the forum.
- Neither is objectively verifiable.
- Both inspire hostility.

This situation is similar to banning some words for being profane.
There are gray areas, but having some specific prohibitions serves
RF's goals....not just revenue from sensitive advertisers.

 

[Secret Chief]

It's a common thing here.
It flared up this very morn. It wasn't pretty.
I say that it's pure hostility.
And those accused take it that way, leading to digression into personal animosity.
We've banned accusations of lying. I propose banning accusations of whining.

What say y'all?

One rule: No whining in this thread.
(Sorry...couldn't resist.)

Whining is surely protected by the First Amendment of your constitution thingy isn't it? Same as implying someone is a poopy head.