Acorn - "How To Be A Ho"

[Alceste]

Kathryn, why don't you just say what you're point is. When I read your links, I don't see the same things you do, and this is all old news. Republicans have been unable to demonstrate that any fraudulent votes were cast - not even one! Nor have they been able to propose any plausible scenario whereby a fake voter could actually cast a ballot.

 

[Kathryn]

Pssst... I think you accidentally linked to a story covering the McCain campaign's efforts to tie Obama to Acorn instead of a story tying Obama to Acorn.

What makes you think it was an accident? I'm not a McCain supporter.

Alceste, I know this may be a really difficult concept for you to get your head around, but some people actually get their news and form their opinions from a wide variety of sources that represent many differing points of view.

I figure that most sources are slanted and biased, so if I read up on things from most major angles, I can find the truth somewhere in the middle.

Of course, Limbaugh, Carville, Mauer, and Colter are all less than palatable, but sometimes I have to force myself to listen to them just to keep up with what the loonies are screaming about on either end of the spectrum.

Fox, MSNBC and the Huffington Post are a few other biased sources that I try to track - mostly for entertainment purposes.

It's times like this that I am particularly proud to proclaim myself and live as an independent.

 

[Kathryn]

Republicans have been unable to demonstrate that any fraudulent votes were cast - not even one! Nor have they been able to propose any plausible scenario whereby a fake voter could actually cast a ballot.

From the AP three days ago:

Although ACORN is nonpartisan, its registration efforts focus on low-income and minority populations who tend to vote for Democrats; critics contend those efforts frequently bend or break registration rules. At times during the 2008 presidential campaign, people attending rallies for Republican nominee John McCain broke into chants of "No More ACORN!"
Last year, ACORN's national drive produced some 1.3 million voter applications.
ACORN first detected problems in Miami-Dade County in June 2008, according to a letter the group wrote to prosecutors. Investigators eventually determined that 11 canvassers, who were paid between $8 and $10 an hour, were turning in fake registration cards, mostly from the Homestead area.
"This is really about money. These are people who decided not to work," said Ed Griffith, spokesman for Miami-Dade State Attorney Katharine Fernandez Rundle.
The 11 workers each face multiple counts of two felony charges: false swearing in connection with voting and submission of false voter registration information. Each count is punishable by up to five years in prison.
The suspects collectively turned in about 1,400 registration cards, of which 888 were later found to be faked. Some contained names of celebrities such as actor Paul Newman, while in other cases the same real voter's name was used on multiple applications. There was no evidence anyone voted who should not have.
The FBI and Florida Department of Law Enforcement had made five arrests by midday and were looking for the remaining suspects. ACORN officials said the group regularly reports suspected fraud to authorities nationwide but the Miami prosecution marks one of the few times the complaints were taken seriously.
ACORN itself last year was the subject of fraudulent registration complaints in Missouri, Wisconsin, New Mexico, Ohio, Michigan and North Carolina, among others.
Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.


So I would say that your assertion that no fraudulent votes were cast is, well, sadly naive at best.

 

[Kathryn]

OH COME ON EVERYONE - LIGHTEN UP SOME.

You have GOT to admit that those two videos I posted are pretty dang hilarious.

Watch them again and just let yourself laugh! It's ok - really.

 

[Alceste]

From the AP three days ago:

Although ACORN is nonpartisan, its registration efforts focus on low-income and minority populations who tend to vote for Democrats; critics contend those efforts frequently bend or break registration rules. At times during the 2008 presidential campaign, people attending rallies for Republican nominee John McCain broke into chants of "No More ACORN!"
Last year, ACORN's national drive produced some 1.3 million voter applications.
ACORN first detected problems in Miami-Dade County in June 2008, according to a letter the group wrote to prosecutors. Investigators eventually determined that 11 canvassers, who were paid between $8 and $10 an hour, were turning in fake registration cards, mostly from the Homestead area.
"This is really about money. These are people who decided not to work," said Ed Griffith, spokesman for Miami-Dade State Attorney Katharine Fernandez Rundle.
The 11 workers each face multiple counts of two felony charges: false swearing in connection with voting and submission of false voter registration information. Each count is punishable by up to five years in prison.
The suspects collectively turned in about 1,400 registration cards, of which 888 were later found to be faked. Some contained names of celebrities such as actor Paul Newman, while in other cases the same real voter's name was used on multiple applications. There was no evidence anyone voted who should not have.
The FBI and Florida Department of Law Enforcement had made five arrests by midday and were looking for the remaining suspects. ACORN officials said the group regularly reports suspected fraud to authorities nationwide but the Miami prosecution marks one of the few times the complaints were taken seriously.
ACORN itself last year was the subject of fraudulent registration complaints in Missouri, Wisconsin, New Mexico, Ohio, Michigan and North Carolina, among others.
Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.


So I would say that your assertion that no fraudulent votes were cast is, well, sadly naive at best.

And I'd say you're an incredibly sloppy reader. From your own source:


"There was no evidence anyone voted who should not have"

 

[Kathryn]

And I'd like to know just how anyone could ascertain that, Alceste?

Like I said, I think that's a naive position.

Reminds me of a kid who gets caught drinking or smoking. "I swear, Mom, I swear - it was my FIRST TIME!"

Or, "I was just holding those cigarettes for a friend. I've never smoked any. What - you don't believe me?"

 

[Alceste]

Alceste, I know this may be a really difficult concept for you to get your head around, but some people actually get their news and form their opinions from a wide variety of sources that represent many differing points of view.

I figure that most sources are slanted and biased, so if I read up on things from most major angles, I can find the truth somewhere in the middle.

Whereas I actively seek out objective, rational, fact-based, meticulously referenced commentary and dismiss everything else as unsubstantiated opinion - including all mainstream news networks.

FYI, the truth is not "in the middle" of all the opinions. A lot of the time, it's not even in the same room.

I know it "might be hard for you to get your head around", but there are many more ways to become informed about the world than watching TV.*

(* very rude, I know, but also very carefully designed to match your own level of inaccurate, condescending insinuation).

 

[Alceste]

And I'd like to know just how anyone could ascertain that, Alceste?

Like I said, I think that's a naive position.

Reminds me of a kid who gets caught drinking or smoking. "I swear, Mom, I swear - it was my FIRST TIME!"

Or, "I was just holding those cigarettes for a friend. I've never smoked any. What - you don't believe me?"

It doesn't become plausible until you can put forward a scenario where it would be possible to vote under a false name.

The right wants you to simply assume false names = false votes without demonstrating that this is the case. You may be happy to oblige, and that's your prerogative, but I require actual evidence before forming an opinion. I don't believe factual claims are even worthy of consideration until the evidence is presented.

 

[Alceste]

OH COME ON EVERYONE - LIGHTEN UP SOME.

You have GOT to admit that those two videos I posted are pretty dang hilarious.

Watch them again and just let yourself laugh! It's ok - really.

Yeah, I did laugh, tis true. Although I ended up shaking my head in despair. What a bunch of idiots! All four of them! The "sting" guys too! Imagine spending all your time visiting every Acorn office in the country, one after the other, with the same scam, until somebody slipped up, just to score a political point! (OK, well that was maybe smart, in a way. I bet Fox is paying-per-use for the incriminating footage).

 

[Kathryn]

By the way, Alceste, I don't have a lot of time to watch TV. I read at least one non fiction book a week - sometimes two - and I have a full time job, and a husband that I greatly enjoy spending quality time with, five children, and six grandchildren, not to mention parents who I talk with on the phone everyday, a very clean house, Booster club on Tuesday nights, football on Friday nights, church and family events on the weekends, and several times a month I either attend a writer's club, a work function after hours, or a political meeting. As you can tell, I spend about an hour a day on this site and researching topics online. So that doesn't leave me much time for the boob tube.

I manage to get a lot of reading in by getting up about 5 am every day.

I went on a rampage at Barnes and Noble today and bought five books! Yummy! Just got done reading an excellent book on the history of the James River area in Virginia, and one also on the history of the Thames. Kinda got on a river kick there for a bit.

Just wanted to fill you in a bit on my lifestyle since you assumed I get most of my information from TV.

 

[Smoke]

So I would say that your assertion that no fraudulent votes were cast is, well, sadly naive at best.

I don't think so. The canvassers were paid to go out and get people to register. Some of them turned in fake registrations. It was ACORN that alerted authorities to the problem. There is no evidence that anybody was trying to pack the ballot box. All we have is some people who thought it was easier to turn in fake paperwork than to do their job. ACORN didn't commit any kind of fraud; it was ACORN that was defrauded by the canvassers.

 

[Smoke]

It doesn't become plausible until you can put forward a scenario where it would be possible to vote under a false name.

It would be possible in some jurisdictions and not in others. However, while election officials don't keep records of how you vote, they certainly do keep records of whether you vote. It would be a rather simple matter for investigators to determine whether anybody voted using the fraudulent registrations, and since they found nothing, it's reasonable to conclude that there was nothing to find.

 

[McBell]

I don't think so. The canvassers were paid to go out and get people to register. Some of them turned in fake registrations. It was ACORN that alerted authorities to the problem. There is no evidence that anybody was trying to pack the ballot box. All we have is some people who thought it was easier to turn in fake paperwork than to do their job. ACORN didn't commit any kind of fraud; it was ACORN that was defrauded by the canvassers.

OH MY GOD!!!

NO!

No, NOT...

NOT FACTS!!! :thud:

 

[Alceste]

By the way, Alceste, I don't have a lot of time to watch TV. I read at least one non fiction book a week - sometimes two - and I have a full time job, and a husband that I greatly enjoy spending quality time with, five children, and six grandchildren, not to mention parents who I talk with on the phone everyday, a very clean house, Booster club on Tuesday nights, football on Friday nights, church and family events on the weekends, and several times a month I either attend a writer's club, a work function after hours, or a political meeting. As you can tell, I spend about an hour a day on this site and researching topics online. So that doesn't leave me much time for the boob tube.

I manage to get a lot of reading in by getting up about 5 am every day.

I went on a rampage at Barnes and Noble today and bought five books! Yummy! Just got done reading an excellent book on the history of the James River area in Virginia, and one also on the history of the Thames. Kinda got on a river kick there for a bit.

Just wanted to fill you in a bit on my lifestyle since you assumed I get most of my information from TV.

I didn't assume that, actually. I was just pulling the old "switcheroo" - redirecting your own statement at you, with extra effort to ensure it was exactly as inaccurate, rude and condescending as your dig at me. Call it the "I'm rubber, you're glue" schoolyard treatment.

I'm not in doubt that you're intelligent and well read. I just think you're also quite susceptible to parroting republican talking points.

 

[Alceste]

It would be possible in some jurisdictions and not in others. However, while election officials don't keep records of how you vote, they certainly do keep records of whether you vote. It would be a rather simple matter for investigators to determine whether anybody voted using the fraudulent registrations, and since they found nothing, it's reasonable to conclude that there was nothing to find.

Yeah, that was pretty much my conclusion. Look at me! So reasonable!

(And lightly toasted too, after playing tunes for pints at the pub all afternoon, karaoke and wine all evening, and a bedtime beer in my hand right this minute!)

 

[Kathryn]

A few more pesky facts:

The two biggest issues with voter registration fraud are the issues of absentee voting and disenfranchised registered voters.

Two common tactics of disenfranchising voters are 1) destroying the voter registrations collected from the opposing party, and 2) stealing the votes of registered voters via absentee ballots (granny farming is one example of this tactic - senior citizens are targeted for voter registration and then when they show up to vote, they are told that they have already voted via absentee ballot).

Is this considered voter fraud? - Yahoo! Answers

Once a "voter" is officially registered, then the process of absentee voting is a piece of cake, and rife with opportunities for fraud.

Good article on this topic:

John Fund on the Trail - WSJ.com

In the 2004 elections, 20 percent of the votes were from absentee/early voting ballots. Twenty six states offer no excuse absentee voting, which means that in order to cast an absentee vote, the "registered voter" doesn't even have to give a reason as to why they will not be showing up in person to vote.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/p20-556.pdf

Here are some other interesting articles full of pesky facts:

Fraud Map :: Rotten Acorn ::

ACORN Voter Registration Fraud Allegations Are Just the Tip of the Iceberg, Says Employment Policies Institute

Illegalities, Fraud and Contradictions Detailed in Report on Lead Organizer of Florida's Amendment 5 WASHINGTON, Oct. 13 /PRNewswire/ -- A Florida state attorney isinvestigating thousands of potentially fraudulent voter registrationsassociated with the leading organizer of Florida's Amendment 5 ballotinitiative. But this is just the tip of an iceberg of illegalities, fraud andcontradictions connected to the Association of Community Organizations forReform Now (ACORN). In recent days, ACORN has been at the epicenter ofreports on thousands of potentially fraudulent voter registrations across thenation -- including many by ex-felons -- submitted by ACORN employees in thepresidential swing states of Ohio, Colorado, Missouri Pennsylvania, New Mexicoand Minnesota. The Employment Policies Institute has updated and re-released its report,"The Real ACORN: Anti-Employee, Anti-Union, Big Business" with the latestdetails on ACORN's involvement in what appears to be widespread voterregistration fraud. The report includes statements from former ACORNemployees on the illegal nature of the organization's promotion of the ballotinitiative to raise Florida's minimum wage to $6.15 per hour. "This report reveals ACORN's pattern and practice of deception and fraud,"said EPI research director Craig Garthwaite. "The latest allegations ofwidespread voter registration fraud should prove to be the last of ACORN'snine political lives." Former ACORN Miami-Dade field director Mac Stuart has declared an intentto sue ACORN and has made charges of rampant voter fraud operations. Stuartwas employed and specifically tasked by ACORN to generate 103,000 new voterregistrations from Dade County. He reports that ACORN threw out Republicanregistrations while paying for Democratic ones. Stuart also charges thatACORN targeted ex-cons and that he personally set up registration tablesoutside the Miami police department and Dade County jail. He went on tostate, "The voter registration project has been operating illegally since itstarted." ACORN has paid workers for every voter registration card collected -- afelony in Florida and also illegal in Missouri and Pennsylvania. ACORN alsoroutinely accepted signatures for Amendment 5 from individuals who were notcurrently registered to vote -- a requirement under Florida law.
ACORN Voter Registration Fraud Allegations Are Just the Tip of the Iceberg, Says Employment Policies Institute

Apparently, the Huffington Post thinks that voter registration fraud by Republicans is a big deal:

McCain Employing GOP Operative Accused Of Voter Registration Fraud

Seems like if it's a big deal for one party, it should be a big deal for the other, right?

Personally, I believe that if we minimize the importance of ANY electoral fraud, at ANY level of the process, we are being very foolish, and much too casual about the precious right we have to vote.

People the world over are willing to DIE to achieve this right, and we should protect the integrity of the process with our very lives if necessary.

 

[Alceste]

I'm pretty sure that's just a longer post saying the same thing, but still offering no evidence of fraudulent votes being cast.

FYI, I didn't say voter registration fraud was not a problem, I said it does not equal fraudulent votes, as you imply. In fact you went so far as to say if it weren't for all the phony registrations "we" (by which I assume you mean the Republicans) would still be in power.

The absentee ballot situation is perhaps a scenario where it is possible to cast a fake vote. But you need to identify the specific loophole too. How are the ballots validated, for example, and how could you get around that? Also, a big one, is what are the rules for counting absentee ballots? Because from what I've read, a lot of them go straight to the shredder without being counted.

BTW, of course the rules are the same for both parties. I'm Canadian - I think both your political parties are way too fascist and socially conservative. I don't know why you all make such a big deal about it - you can hardly tell them apart, except for that thing about Republicans and starting wars, which is a deal-breaker for me.

 

[Kathryn]

In fact you went so far as to say if it weren't for all the phony registrations "we" (by which I assume you mean the Republicans) would still be in power.

No, Alceste, I didn't say this. Not quite sure where you're getting this.

When I used the term "we," I was referring to Americans - not any one particular political party.

I don't think the Republicans have done a very good job over the past 8 years. And their policies so weakened our nation and economy, that we are in a truly dire situation now. They surely carry a large part of the blame for our current situation - which is now being exacerbated by Obama's administration.

I fear we have seen the last of the glory days of the United States. Very sad.

 

[Enoch07]

YouTube - ACORN Prostitution Investigation - James O'Keefe and Hannah Giles - Part 1

Next question- where's the media coverage on this? (Acorn, not Velvet Jones!)

Actually The Daily Report (which is always been ultra liberal....even though it is a entertainment show) reported on this video the other night. Not even they could find a reason to justify Acorn's actions or make light of the situation.

 

[jamaesi]

Those two actors had to go to many ACORN offices in many different cities before they hit on that one that decided to "advise" them.

I don't really see the big deal here? They had to cherry-pick one time when they were actually not laughed out of there and act like this happens at every ACORN office. Uhh.. no. The employees who "advised" them were fired and ACORN is going to do reviews and retraining. End of story.

If this happened at every single ACORN office and the employees were kept, I could see the outrage. That's not the case, though. It's not even like these were the higher-ups, either. I'm sure just about every organization or company or group ever has at least one embarrassing member, if not many more.

I don't think so. The canvassers were paid to go out and get people to register. Some of them turned in fake registrations. It was ACORN that alerted authorities to the problem. There is no evidence that anybody was trying to pack the ballot box. All we have is some people who thought it was easier to turn in fake paperwork than to do their job. ACORN didn't commit any kind of fraud; it was ACORN that was defrauded by the canvassers.

It's not that they were lazy and handed in obviously false registration forms just for ***** and giggles, they were required by law in some states to turn in all registration forms no matter what. Instead of going by each state's laws (which all can vary wildly) ACORN goes by the same procedure in every state- all the forms get turned in.

Honestly, I think this is a good thing. What if someone decided to pick through them before they got handed in and for some reason decided that your registration was fake just because they have some sort of bias? Sure, probably some poor intern has to pick out all of Donald Duck's registration forms, but no one is going to be culled before the forms even go in.