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Acts of the Apostles and the erroneous dating of the NT books
- Thread starter Eli G
- Start date
Clarification about the original debate question on this thread: when did Luke write the book of Acts of the Apostles?
To your info: All NT books were writen in the 1st century AD. Catholic Church was founded after Christians were not more persecuted by the Roman Empire, not before, and by then all NT books were already circulating among all Christian congregations worldwide.
I wonder how it is that being so ignorant in biblical matters, some pretend to be experts on these topics. It's okay not to know everything; What is wrong is to pretend that you can have an opinion on everything even if you know nothing about it.
In this forum that is supposed to be about religious debates with specific subforums for biblical issues and Christianity, too many ignorant people want to give their opinion on what they are completely unaware of.
They should know themselves better, and recognize that they should not be giving opinions on everything, as if they were scholars, even if they read a few books about the issue, because there's not issue that can be explain only from one perspective, so a wider spectrum of researching is needed. IOW, answers on biblical matters require a comprehensive base knowledge. For example, saying that the Catholic Church is the author of the Christian Greek Scriptures or NT is the most stupid thing anyone could think of posting, if they want someone to take seriously something they write about some other subject.
Know your own place so that you don't have to leave humiliated by the shame of pretending to know something to give an opinion about which you know nothing. To be a teacher you must first be a student. Never have I seen so many ignorant people pretending to be knowledgeable. We live in a crisis regarding respect for the truth.
To your info: All NT books were writen in the 1st century AD. Catholic Church was founded after Christians were not more persecuted by the Roman Empire, not before, and by then all NT books were already circulating among all Christian congregations worldwide.
I wonder how it is that being so ignorant in biblical matters, some pretend to be experts on these topics. It's okay not to know everything; What is wrong is to pretend that you can have an opinion on everything even if you know nothing about it.
In this forum that is supposed to be about religious debates with specific subforums for biblical issues and Christianity, too many ignorant people want to give their opinion on what they are completely unaware of.
They should know themselves better, and recognize that they should not be giving opinions on everything, as if they were scholars, even if they read a few books about the issue, because there's not issue that can be explain only from one perspective, so a wider spectrum of researching is needed. IOW, answers on biblical matters require a comprehensive base knowledge. For example, saying that the Catholic Church is the author of the Christian Greek Scriptures or NT is the most stupid thing anyone could think of posting, if they want someone to take seriously something they write about some other subject.
Know your own place so that you don't have to leave humiliated by the shame of pretending to know something to give an opinion about which you know nothing. To be a teacher you must first be a student. Never have I seen so many ignorant people pretending to be knowledgeable. We live in a crisis regarding respect for the truth.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yep, and that's because the Catholic Church includes the "Apocrypha".
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Please share with us all just where in your Christian studies have you found the instruction of God to be judgemental, condescending, and plain, old-fashioned rude? What's got a hold on you. Eli? Should help from your brotherhood be summoned, for I certainly don't know how to help. I've never, ever met a JW with such anger. How can I be of service?
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Well, whatever it is you call you mode of communication, you need to tone it down a few notches.I am not judgmental. You are.
We have a thread on here that was active before you joined that you may wish to look over. The title was something to the effect of "Do you think you represent your faith well on RF?"
If I happen across it to get confirmation of the title, I'll revive the post.
Reminding you what is the topic here:
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
And I responded in post #10. Did you check the link and all the scholarly documentation provided. Granted, some of the bibliographic sources have not been updated with current ip addresses, but the information you requested in the OP is still quite substantial.
In the year 303 AD Diocletian along with other Roman leaders carried out the greatest persecution of Christians that the Roman Empire had ever undertaken. Nine previous persecutions had already happened against them under different Roman emperors.
In 313 Emperor Constantine freed Christians from persecution with the Edict of Milan, proclaiming that every person was free "to follow the religion which he chooses."
Shortly after, some Christian authorities of the time allied themselves with him for strategic purposes and formed the political-religious alliance that later became known as the Roman Catholic Apostolic Church, which no longer had anything apostolic and was rather an institution of an expansionist political nature.
So the Catholic Church came much later than the writing of Christian books and letters that had been written in the first century during the apostolic era. There were no longer even spiritual gifts or powerful works under the influence of the holy spirit. That is why the Church that was founded lacked that influence for the most part. In fact, although many "Christian" books were written after the first century, none were included in the canon of the Christian Scriptures, because that canon was already complete by the time the apostle John died.
In 313 Emperor Constantine freed Christians from persecution with the Edict of Milan, proclaiming that every person was free "to follow the religion which he chooses."
Shortly after, some Christian authorities of the time allied themselves with him for strategic purposes and formed the political-religious alliance that later became known as the Roman Catholic Apostolic Church, which no longer had anything apostolic and was rather an institution of an expansionist political nature.
So the Catholic Church came much later than the writing of Christian books and letters that had been written in the first century during the apostolic era. There were no longer even spiritual gifts or powerful works under the influence of the holy spirit. That is why the Church that was founded lacked that influence for the most part. In fact, although many "Christian" books were written after the first century, none were included in the canon of the Christian Scriptures, because that canon was already complete by the time the apostle John died.
Are you serious? Do you actually think that the Biblical authors -- all Jews except for Luke -- wrote in Latin? LOL!
Genesis through Revelation were all written prior to the Latin Vulgate translation. Genesis through Revelation were written in ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek. None of them were written in Latin.
The Vulgate, sometimes referred to as the Latin Vulgate, is a late-4th-century Latin translation of the Bible.
You have been misled! You should learn the truth!
@Twilight Hue needs to read this post! Especially "the Catholic Church came much later than the writing of Christian books and letters that had been written in the first century during the apostolic era."
The apostle John, the last one alive, died around the year 100 AD.
About the last years of the apostle John's life:
It is important for every student of the Christian Greek Scriptures to understand that when John died, the apostolic era concluded, and then the impediment to apostasy from fully entering into Christians disappeared... the weeds sown by the Devil that would grow along with the wheat sown by Jesus and his apostles and other original anointed ones (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43) .
That apostolic era was characterized by special conditions that ceased to exist with the death of John. It was during that era that Christian Bible books were completed written and entered circulation. It was also in that era that some Gentiles received the holy spirit and began to receive special gifts that were never repeated in the same way in later generations. For example: the gifts of prophecy, speaking in foreign languages, miraculous healings, discerning whether "spirits" (or teachings and attitudes) were truly divinely inspired, etc (1 Cor. 12:4-11).
Here, under inspiration, Paul summarizes why this apostasy had not yet fully developed, and what would happen after the end of the apostolic era:
2 Thess. 2:1 However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.
3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
About the last years of the apostle John's life:
Read John’s Later History on https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002489
It is important for every student of the Christian Greek Scriptures to understand that when John died, the apostolic era concluded, and then the impediment to apostasy from fully entering into Christians disappeared... the weeds sown by the Devil that would grow along with the wheat sown by Jesus and his apostles and other original anointed ones (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43) .
That apostolic era was characterized by special conditions that ceased to exist with the death of John. It was during that era that Christian Bible books were completed written and entered circulation. It was also in that era that some Gentiles received the holy spirit and began to receive special gifts that were never repeated in the same way in later generations. For example: the gifts of prophecy, speaking in foreign languages, miraculous healings, discerning whether "spirits" (or teachings and attitudes) were truly divinely inspired, etc (1 Cor. 12:4-11).
Here, under inspiration, Paul summarizes why this apostasy had not yet fully developed, and what would happen after the end of the apostolic era:
2 Thess. 2:1 However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.
3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
I skimmed through what you wrote, but this got my attention...
It was also in that era that some Gentiles received the holy spirit and began to receive special gifts that were never repeated in the same way in later generations. For example: the gifts of prophecy, speaking in foreign languages, miraculous healings, discerning whether "spirits" (or teachings and attitudes) were truly divinely inspired, etc.
That simply is not the case, and there is no Biblical basis for saying it. The gifts of the Spirit (and the giving of the Holy Spirit) have continued since the first days. Prophecy, tongues, healings, discernment of spirits, etc. are present today in many people, including me. I was miraculously healed in 1973 and received the gift of tongues (which I speak to this day). Quite a few congregations today recognize the gifts of the Spirit as valid, "alive and well".
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You can consult this biblical dictionary by Douglas J. D. in the page 69 right in place, in the last paragraph of the first column of the page:
There we read that the spiritual gifts of power were “missing in the 2nd-century Church, the writers of those days speaking of them as a thing in the past—in the apostolic age, in fact.”
The name of the dictionary is The New Bible Dictionary.
There we read that the spiritual gifts of power were “missing in the 2nd-century Church, the writers of those days speaking of them as a thing in the past—in the apostolic age, in fact.”
The name of the dictionary is The New Bible Dictionary.
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AdamjEdgar
Active Member
There is a difference between speaking in tongues (as the disciples did which could be understood by each man listening, in a mans own language), and the useless unintelligable babbling you are talking about that no one understands. The tongues you speak of is driven by evil spirit, not heavenly one's.
I think I already told this anecdote somewhere, but here it goes again:
At the beginning of the 20th century with the birth of the American Pentecostal sects with their passionate "revivals" that claimed to be samples of the holy spirit in them, they decided to take all that "spectacle" to Africa, on religious missions. They thought that they would automatically speak the tongues of the inhabitants of those lands, because according to them the holy spirit was going to repeat those supposed languages that they spoke in their revivals here, and those people would understand the message of Christ and would convert to their religion.
But it didn't happen. It was all the fruit of their own imagination. They had to learn the languages of those lands by studying with the inhabitants of those territories like any simple mortal. No gift of tongues ... so, evidently, what they thought had happened here before they left was pure emotional display..
At the beginning of the 20th century with the birth of the American Pentecostal sects with their passionate "revivals" that claimed to be samples of the holy spirit in them, they decided to take all that "spectacle" to Africa, on religious missions. They thought that they would automatically speak the tongues of the inhabitants of those lands, because according to them the holy spirit was going to repeat those supposed languages that they spoke in their revivals here, and those people would understand the message of Christ and would convert to their religion.
But it didn't happen. It was all the fruit of their own imagination. They had to learn the languages of those lands by studying with the inhabitants of those territories like any simple mortal. No gift of tongues ... so, evidently, what they thought had happened here before they left was pure emotional display..
Oh, I see. One comment by "Douglas J.D. claiming that "the spiritual gifts of power were “missing in the 2nd-century Church, the writers of those days speaking of them as a thing in the past" is your "proof" that they didn't exist past the apostolic age?
It doesn't take much of an effort to "prove" anything, including Bigfoot, the moon landing was faked, the Loch Ness monster, and the spiritual gifts of power were missing in the 2nd-century Church. I already wrote that I was healed in 1973 and speak in tongues, so I know your single-source claim is false.
That is what you believe, but you are wrong. I think that an evil spirit has deceived you.
And your point is? Again, a single example of one group misunderstanding tongues (as you have) proves nothing. When you understand that speaking in tongues is speaking in an unknown language, we can continue this discussion. As I wrote in post #33, I have been speaking in tongues -- the unknown language given to me by God -- since 1973. It is irrelevant to me if you accept that or not.