Adam = all Men's nature becomes sinful; Jesus =/= all Men become sinless?

[Heathen Hammer]

This question arose after I viewed a comment from a Christian friend on another venue.

Adam's action definitively changed the very nature of all humans. Even though all subsequent people did not commit the action he did, we were nonetheless infused, in essence, with sin. If the tale is taken to its logical conclusion we can view it as an actual physical change to reality, wherein mankind's nature became inherently sinful.

Then, Jesus arrives. And although some dogmatists claim that his sacrifice at the end, took away all sin, or forgives all sins, or however one wants to frame it - the appearance of this second [in the view of some who saw Adam as initially being created perfect] perfect being on Earth does NOT change the inherent nature of Man. In this case it becomes choice; or perhaps in some views, divine grace/choice.

It is positional, and not inherent. Subsequent humans are not then born sinless once again. Original Sin stains every one, up to and through Jesus' appearance. Why did this condition not change back to the way God first created Man?

Why is it that the coming of Jesus did not undo the error of Adam? Original Sin is not a choice by any means; why is forgiveness for that sin a choice? Why did Jesus' actions not cleanse us wholly from Adam's error?

 

[K.Venugopal]

Jesus did not, it seems, unconditionally cleanse us of our sins. The condition is - believe in me. If this is so, then I wonder why he had to die in the manner he did. Could he not have just preached belief in him for us to rid ourselves of sins?

 

[rusra02]

This question arose after I viewed a comment from a Christian friend on another venue.

Adam's action definitively changed the very nature of all humans. Even though all subsequent people did not commit the action he did, we were nonetheless infused, in essence, with sin. If the tale is taken to its logical conclusion we can view it as an actual physical change to reality, wherein mankind's nature became inherently sinful.

Then, Jesus arrives. And although some dogmatists claim that his sacrifice at the end, took away all sin, or forgives all sins, or however one wants to frame it - the appearance of this second [in the view of some who saw Adam as initially being created perfect] perfect being on Earth does NOT change the inherent nature of Man. In this case it becomes choice; or perhaps in some views, divine grace/choice.

It is positional, and not inherent. Subsequent humans are not then born sinless once again. Original Sin stains every one, up to and through Jesus' appearance. Why did this condition not change back to the way God first created Man?

Why is it that the coming of Jesus did not undo the error of Adam? Original Sin is not a choice by any means; why is forgiveness for that sin a choice? Why did Jesus' actions not cleanse us wholly from Adam's error?

"For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23) Thus, the ransom sacrifice of Christ is God's free gift to remove sin and death. The famous verse at John 3:16 shows the gift can be accepted or rejected: 'For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." John 3:36 explains: "He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." The gift of life through Jesus sacrifice is conditional upon our obeying Christ, and following him. Otherwise, we will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon us. It is true we did not choose to be born sinful. But, just as Adam had free choice, we do also. God is not going to force this gift (of life) on us if we choose to reject it.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Allah is all-forgiving, Allah forgave Adam.this is the truth.... i think.

 

[rusra02]

Allah is all-forgiving, Allah forgave Adam.this is the truth.... i think.

No, Adam sinned wilfully and knowingly. He rebelled against God, and God sentenced him to death, as God said would happen. The penalty for sin is death, and Adam died. (Genesis 5:5) Had Adam not sinned, he would not have died.

 

[Twig pentagram]

I think Adam never existed.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

"For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23) Thus, the ransom sacrifice of Christ is God's free gift to remove sin and death. The famous verse at John 3:16 shows the gift can be accepted or rejected: 'For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." John 3:36 explains: "He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." The gift of life through Jesus sacrifice is conditional upon our obeying Christ, and following him. Otherwise, we will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon us. It is true we did not choose to be born sinful. But, just as Adam had free choice, we do also. God is not going to force this gift (of life) on us if we choose to reject it.

Yyyyeah, so, that's a nice description of something that doesn't address what I said. Why is it conditional, when being slathered in Original Sin is involuntary? Since God created the condition that Original Sin would be mandatory on all people born after, and we never did what Adam did before we are covered in sin.. why isn't Jesus' sacrifice also involuntary? Mandatory? Why do we have to follow something, when we personally never followed anything that got us Original Sin? It's a complicated question. Why aren't we now born free of Original Sin.

 

[Awoon]

This question arose after I viewed a comment from a Christian friend on another venue.

Adam's action definitively changed the very nature of all humans. Even though all subsequent people did not commit the action he did, we were nonetheless infused, in essence, with sin. If the tale is taken to its logical conclusion we can view it as an actual physical change to reality, wherein mankind's nature became inherently sinful.

Then, Jesus arrives. And although some dogmatists claim that his sacrifice at the end, took away all sin, or forgives all sins, or however one wants to frame it - the appearance of this second [in the view of some who saw Adam as initially being created perfect] perfect being on Earth does NOT change the inherent nature of Man. In this case it becomes choice; or perhaps in some views, divine grace/choice.

It is positional, and not inherent. Subsequent humans are not then born sinless once again. Original Sin stains every one, up to and through Jesus' appearance. Why did this condition not change back to the way God first created Man?

Why is it that the coming of Jesus did not undo the error of Adam? Original Sin is not a choice by any means; why is forgiveness for that sin a choice? Why did Jesus' actions not cleanse us wholly from Adam's error?

Religions dont make any money off righteous people, only their Sinner members.

So they collect what they can off the Sinner members until they die or quit believing they are Sinners.

 

[Me Myself]

No, Adam sinned wilfully and knowingly. H

No, Adam didn´t even have knowledge before he sinned.

But, just as Adam had free choice, we do also. God is not going to force this gift (of life) on us if we choose to reject it.

So, "God" forced me to be born sinful, but he let´s me have "free choice" about salvation.

Not weird at all.

 

[Quiddity]

Real good question. I don't have the time at this moment but some quick corrections.

-Sin was not infused as sin is an action.

-Stop thinking in biological terms. The corruption happened in the human soul; which of course is tied to your biological body.

-When I believe in God and confess all my sins it is 100% cleansed in the same way Adam and Eve was cleansed. But just like A&E, we can fall later.

 

[Me Myself]

Real good question. I don't have the time at this moment but some quick corrections.

-Sin was not infused as sin is an action.

We were not born with the original sin then.

-Stop thinking in biological terms. The corruption happened in the human soul; which of course is tied to your biological body.

Then there is no reason to not think in biology. Women shouldn´t have labour pains now, yet they do.

-
-When I believe in God and confess all my sins it is 100% cleansed in the same way Adam and Eve was cleansed. But just like A&E, we can fall later.

We shouldn´t be prone to sin, Adam and Eve had the chance to not sin and sin was not in their nature. Regardless, we all have sin in our nature and are prone to sin even when we don´t want to.

So sin was not ripped out of our nature. So if Jesus was the new Adam, sin clearly beats purity.

 

[rusra02]

Yyyyeah, so, that's a nice description of something that doesn't address what I said. Why is it conditional, when being slathered in Original Sin is involuntary? Since God created the condition that Original Sin would be mandatory on all people born after, and we never did what Adam did before we are covered in sin.. why isn't Jesus' sacrifice also involuntary? Mandatory? Why do we have to follow something, when we personally never followed anything that got us Original Sin? It's a complicated question. Why aren't we now born free of Original Sin.

A person born with a disease inherited from his parents can choose to receive an available cure for the illness, or not. Adam had the freedom to choose whether to obey God or not, and he choose disobedience. God would have been perfectly justified in executing Adam before he had children. The fact that God allowed the human race to exist at all shows God's love and mercy extended to Adam's offspring. Further, motivated by love, God made it possible for the 'world' of mankind to regain what Adam lost. (John 3:16) God will grant that free gift, not as something mandatory (you'll get everlasting life whether you like it or not!") but as something to be accepted gratefully and happily by those suffering from the terminal illness Adam passed to us.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Adam's action definitively changed the very nature of all humans.

Let's start here. Can you back this up with Scripture?

 

[Quiddity]

We were not born with the original sin then.

Then there is no reason to not think in biology. Women shouldn´t have labour pains now, yet they do.

We shouldn´t be prone to sin, Adam and Eve had the chance to not sin and sin was not in their nature. Regardless, we all have sin in our nature and are prone to sin even when we don´t want to.

So sin was not ripped out of our nature. So if Jesus was the new Adam, sin clearly beats purity.

Me thinks we differ on what original sin is:

Catholic Cathecism
405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence".

If we don't agree on what OS is, then we certainly won't agree on the nature of this topic.

 

[Me Myself]

Let's start here. Can you back this up with Scripture?

Genesis 3 from 16-and beyond

 

[Me Myself]

Me thinks we differ on what original sin is:

Catholic Cathecism
405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence".

If we don't agree on what OS is, then we certainly won't agree on the nature of this topic.

Contrair, all I spoke of was about the bolded part. You may revise my post and find the references to it. It does says we are corrupted. (not "totally" but corrupted nevertheless, prone to sin, etc)

We certainly have been deprived of original holyness and justice, etc. I am a former catholic with very good religious uprbringing. I may make mistakes about doctrine, but it would be uncommon.

 

[Me Myself]

As I see I stand unrefuted, I must repostulate the question:

So sin was not ripped out of our nature eventhough Jesus died on the cross. So if Jesus was the new Adam, sin beats purity?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Let's start here. Can you back this up with Scripture?

Don't go there. Look at the concept and draw rational conclusions.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

A person born with a disease inherited from his parents can choose to receive an available cure for the illness, or not. Adam had the freedom to choose whether to obey God or not, and he choose disobedience. God would have been perfectly justified in executing Adam before he had children. The fact that God allowed the human race to exist at all shows God's love and mercy extended to Adam's offspring. Further, motivated by love, God made it possible for the 'world' of mankind to regain what Adam lost. (John 3:16) God will grant that free gift, not as something mandatory (you'll get everlasting life whether you like it or not!") but as something to be accepted gratefully and happily by those suffering from the terminal illness Adam passed to us.

{knowing this isn't the place to explain what a dreadful morality example this comparison is...}

OK as I said, this is a complex question I am giving you. What you are posting is not answering the specific question laid out in front of you. You are falling off into talking pointlessly about choice and saying positive things about God; this isn't the place for that.

WHY MUST I CHOOSE TO ACCEPT THE CURE is the question. Why isn't it automatic? {as in your example, it WOULD be automatically given to a baby, if his parents weren't miserable human beings}

Original sin is AUTOMATIC.
the cure is VOLUNTARY

The cure SHOULD BE AUTOMATIC.

Why isn't it? After Jesus' actions, it SHOULD BE.

I can't break it down into more simple terms.

 

[Me Myself]

A person born with a disease inherited from his parents can choose to receive an available cure for the illness, or not. Adam had the freedom to choose whether to obey God or not, and he choose disobedience. God would have been perfectly justified in executing Adam before he had children. The fact that God allowed the human race to exist at all shows God's love and mercy extended to Adam's offspring. Further, motivated by love, God made it possible for the 'world' of mankind to regain what Adam lost. (John 3:16) God will grant that free gift, not as something mandatory (you'll get everlasting life whether you like it or not!") but as something to be accepted gratefully and happily by those suffering from the terminal illness Adam passed to us.

When I was little, I wasn´t asked if I wanted to get better to my mother. If I was ill, my mother/father knew better than me, and friggin took me to doctors and gave me the cure.

If your dog, that is lower to you, is ill, will you listen to it when it doesn´t want to take his pills or do you make it swallow them up?

If one that is bad, is good to one´s ignorant pets, how the Father that is good, wont be good to ignorant us? Are we not better than pets? is not the Father better than us?

Food for thought.