Adam and Eve.The Problem of Perfection

[Magic]

If god created Adam and Eve they were perfect.If they were created imperfect that would not make sense why would he do that. There would be no reason for god to get mad at them because what would he expect If i create a machine that will shoot a gun randomly and it shoots randomly why would i be mad.God made A+E imperfect then gets made at them for being imperfect.It might also suggest that god is imperfect.Many scholars agree its because of Adam eating the apple is what brought imperfection into the world.

So if A+E were perfect they should have never sinned in the first place.The typical answer would be free will.Well that would make free will an imperfection.This flaw would show that god did not create perfection in A+E meaning he is imperfect.



This is something i just don't understand about Christianity :sarcastic

 

[Pegg]

this boils down to what you think 'perfection' means.

In terms of perfection, it can mean acting in harmony with a chosen purpose. For example, a coffee grinder is perfect for grinding coffee but probably not very good at squeezing lemons.
So if the coffee grinder is used to grind coffee, we can say it does its job perfectly.

Its the same with A&E. They were created for a specific purpose. As long as they continued to work in harmony with that purpose it can be said they were living perfectly. However, as soon as they stepped out of their designated role, they were no longer living perfectly for what they were designed for.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Also, if we are to consider the fact that they did not know right from wrong (until they ate the forbidden fruit) then they were imperfect - to the extent that they did not know it was wrong to do something they were told not to. They were, in a way perfectly ignorant or naive.

 

[Magic]

this boils down to what you think 'perfection' means.

In terms of perfection, it can mean acting in harmony with a chosen purpose. For example, a coffee grinder is perfect for grinding coffee but probably not very good at squeezing lemons.
So if the coffee grinder is used to grind coffee, we can say it does its job perfectly.

Its the same with A&E. They were created for a specific purpose. As long as they continued to work in harmony with that purpose it can be said they were living perfectly. However, as soon as they stepped out of their designated role, they were no longer living perfectly for what they were designed for.

You see here's where its confusing.If they were perfect then they could not of stepped out of the designed rule

 

[Magic]

Also, if we are to consider the fact that they did not know right from wrong (until they ate the forbidden fruit) then they were imperfect - to the extent that they did not know it was wrong to do something they were told not to. They were, in a way perfectly ignorant or naive.

Where did you hear that they did not know right from wrong?They would of known it was wrong because god told them so

 

[Katzpur]

If god created Adam and Eve they were perfect.If they were created imperfect that would not make sense why would he do that. There would be no reason for god to get mad at them because what would he expect If i create a machine that will shoot a gun randomly and it shoots randomly why would i be mad.God made A+E imperfect then gets made at them for being imperfect.It might also suggest that god is imperfect.Many scholars agree its because of Adam eating the apple is what brought imperfection into the world.

So if A+E were perfect they should have never sinned in the first place.The typical answer would be free will.Well that would make free will an imperfection.This flaw would show that god did not create perfection in A+E meaning he is imperfect.



This is something i just don't understand about Christianity :sarcastic

I'm not sure why you think Adam and Eve were perfect, or what you think perfect even means. I would say, for starters, that something can be "perfect" for the purpose for which it was created, but "imperfect" for some other purpose.

 

[Pegg]

You see here's where its confusing.If they were perfect then they could not of stepped out of the designed rule

do you think an imperfect person can only make mistakes because they are imperfect?

 

[Magic]

do you think an imperfect person can only make mistakes because they are imperfect?

A perfect person is flawless.So I would say yes.

 

[Pegg]

A perfect person is flawless.So I would say yes.

So you think that an imperfect person will only be capable of making mistakes?

No human on this planet has ever done something right?

 

[Curious Michael]

Its the same with A&E. They were created for a specific purpose. As long as they continued to work in harmony with that purpose it can be said they were living perfectly. However, as soon as they stepped out of their designated role, they were no longer living perfectly for what they were designed for.

So what was the specific purpose that they were created for? ... "to work in harmony"?

I wonder if they weren't created to just kick start the human race, with the full intent that they would fail right away? If heaven exists and is the only place where everything can be perfect, then God never would have intended humans on earth to be perfect, hence Adam and Eve were never intended to be perfect? Yes/no?

 

[Magic]

So you think that an imperfect person will only be capable of making mistakes?

No human on this planet has ever done something right?

No but a perfect person is flawless

 

[Pegg]

So what was the specific purpose that they were created for? ... "to work in harmony"?

God states their purpose in Genesis 1:28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”

Our purpose is to live on earth as physical caretakers of the earth and animals. Mankind were given the ability reproduce offspring so that more and more people would fill the earth and the scriptures tell us that mankind will live forever on earth
Ps 37:29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

I wonder if they weren't created to just kick start the human race, with the full intent that they would fail right away? If heaven exists and is the only place where everything can be perfect, then God never would have intended humans on earth to be perfect, hence Adam and Eve were never intended to be perfect? Yes/no?

if correct, it would imply that God did not create them with the ability to be perfect, yet over and over we see in the scritpures that God implores us to be perfect.
ie,
Matthew 5:48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.
Leviticus 19:2 “Speak to the entire assembly of the sons of Israel, and you must say to them, ‘YOU should prove yourselves holy, because I Jehovah YOUR God am holy.
Deuteronomy 18:13 You should prove yourself faultless with Jehovah your God


There is also the evidence from the scriptures that many men and women were considered faultless by God...this is evidence that imperfect mankind can live in accord with Gods will for them, we can maintain our integrity to God and do the right thing in his eyes:
ie,
Job 1:8 And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad?

Genesis 6:9 This is the history of Noah. Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the [true] God.

Luke 1:5 In the days of Herod, king of Ju·de′a, there happened to be a certain priest named Zech·a·ri′ah...and he had a wife...her name was Elizabeth. 6 They both were righteous before God because of walking blamelessly in accord with all the commandments and legal requirements of Jehovah

These, and many more, lived in harmony with Gods requirements. Adam and Eve failed in that respect because they chose to disobey God....and that is what sin is...it is disobedience. So God knows that we can obey and thats why he encourages us to do so.

 

[Pegg]

No but a perfect person is flawless

are you speaking about moral perfection or physical perfection?

 

[Magic]

are you speaking about moral perfection or physical perfection?

What do you mean? Something that is perfect cannot possess any flaws

 

[Magic]

I'm not sure why you think Adam and Eve were perfect, or what you think perfect even means. I would say, for starters, that something can be "perfect" for the purpose for which it was created, but "imperfect" for some other purpose.

How could a perfect being create an imperfect creation.

 

[Pegg]

What do you mean? Something that is perfect cannot possess any flaws

that really depends on what your standard of perfection is based.

We can both look at the same painting and I might think the painting is perfect just as it is, but you might think otherwise. You might prefer if it was a lighter shade, or if the picture was larger.

Our views of perfection might be different. And in terms of God, his view of perfection might be different again.

so this really depends on who's standards you choose to go by.

 

[Katzpur]

How could a perfect being create an imperfect creation.

I'd say that a perfect being could do anything it wants.

Adam and Eve were perfect for the purpose God created them for. You're assuming you know what would constitute "perfect" in the mind of God. Does "perfect" mean "having no flaws" or does it mean "being incomplete"? (Check your dictionary if you need help withat that one.) If God had created Adam and Eve to be everything He is, they would be gods themselves. Maybe it wasn't His intention of creating gods, but creatures who could grow and mature into eventually becoming like He is. Until they attained that goal, they would be "imperfect" but exactly what God intended. Obviously, since you don't believe in God at all, it's kind of a moot point, though, isn't it?

(You need to keep in mind that your thread is in the Christianity DIR. That means your input on why Christian theology is flawed is not permitted here. If you want to debate this question, you might want to ask one of the staff to move your thread to a more appropriate sub-forum.)

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Where did you hear that they did not know right from wrong?They would of known it was wrong because god told them so

We are told that the fruit of knowledge is what told them right from wrong - therefore logically speaking BEFORE eating the fruit of knowledge, they did not know right from wrong - including that it was wrong not to do what god told them (or to do what god told them not to). They knew god told them not to eat it, but they did not know that disobeying god was wrong - because they had no concept of right and wrong.

 

[Magic]

I'd say that a perfect being could do anything it wants.

Adam and Eve were perfect for the purpose God created them for. You're assuming you know what would constitute "perfect" in the mind of God. Does "perfect" mean "having no flaws" or does it mean "being incomplete"? (Check your dictionary if you need help withat that one.) If God had created Adam and Eve to be everything He is, they would be gods themselves. Maybe it wasn't His intention of creating gods, but creatures who could grow and mature into eventually becoming like He is. Until they attained that goal, they would be "imperfect" but exactly what God intended. Obviously, since you don't believe in God at all, it's kind of a moot point, though, isn't it?

(You need to keep in mind that your thread is in the Christianity DIR. That means your input on why Christian theology is flawed is not permitted here. If you want to debate this question, you might want to ask one of the staff to move your thread to a more appropriate sub-forum.)

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

God is suppose to be the perfect tree!Yet he bears imperfect creation.If god used his definition for everything we would not know what he was talking about.

We are told that the fruit of knowledge is what told them right from wrong - therefore logically speaking BEFORE eating the fruit of knowledge, they did not know right from wrong - including that it was wrong not to do what god told them (or to do what god told them not to). They knew god told them not to eat it, but they did not know that disobeying god was wrong - because they had no concept of right and wrong.

So why would they be punished?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

So why would they be punished?

I am not a Christian - so were I to judge the reasons for such a punishment I would not be deferential, as such I prefer to reserve such a comment to avoid needlessly upsetting people.

My opinion on that punishment is not so important as my argument about the capacity of the individuals involved to be aware of whether or not disobeying a command was wrong - that is the substantive issue.

Can someone who does not know right from wrong know that disobeying a command is wrong? By simple definition - no.