That question is ambiguous. If it's supposed to be a maths question aimed at 8 year olds its poorly worded.
Effective comprehension would lead to the 8 year old asking a clarification question, not guessing at its intent.
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"Adults Are Arguing About This 3rd Grade Math Problem"
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
That question is ambiguous. If it's supposed to be a maths question aimed at 8 year olds its poorly worded.
Effective comprehension would lead to the 8 year old asking a clarification question, not guessing at its intent.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I'm just not seeing at as ambiguous. The text of the problem states John "ran around the track" "four times more" rather than "four more times."
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
That's really not an answer because the use of "more than" is attaching the object to the verb and relating it to the subject.
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What is it you're trying to teach the 8 year old?
Could the question be written more clearly?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I'm not sure if it could without making the grammar awkward. Perhaps though it is a bit rough for a 3rd grader (I didn't realize they were only about 8).
Yup, fair enough.
For what it's worth, you made mention of students needing to be taught critical reading skills (although not by that name).
I 100% agree. It's vital, and often not focused on enough.
Just didn't think this was a good example of that.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Screw the math teachers. This is an English lesson!
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks...
PURE MATHS - WOULD - DEMAND a PURE LOGIC - and look - the correct mathematical answer then would be TEN....But it would depend of course on the mathematical EQUATION as it was presented....But looking closely here - we are NOT dealing with pure maths OR a maths equation at all - we are dealing with logical COMPREHENSION of LANGUAGE - the structure of and order of the WORD used present the mathematical equation in a form that must first be deciphered correctly but is only hinted at in the words themselves
Really this is an English language issue rather than a maths issue..The way the queerie is worded is open to logical interpretation - and its not readily apparant if he means "addition or multiplication" - not at first - but when we look closely at the inherant meaning of the words chosen we see he MUST mean ADDITION... It doesnt matter if they run together side by side or if they run seperate - its about TOTAL units on the track (laps of the track)...
Look - the PARAMETER that we seek to work out, starts off here as a single Unit - the TRACK ITSELF - that is the ONLY IMPORTANT PART and the crux and pivot to the whole conundrum here - its about the TOTAL laps of this track (how many single units) !!!
Looked at like this it says clearly that Sue uses "two units" and that John then uses four times MORE units - and see four times the unit here is four SINGLE LAPS of the track - means of course TOTAL laps are two for Sue and now FOUR for John and between them they did SIX laps no more no less - and that IS the answer as the logic of the WORDS chosen expresses it..
It is an English comprehension logical problem - if he wants a pure maths comprehension problem to solve then the teacher MUST by necessity express it as a purely mathematical equation...As it is currently expressed the answer can only be SIX according the logic of the words -and as a pure maths equation the answer could only be TEN...
Folks - such issues are indeed WHY I my Self CAPITALISE and EMPHASISE a lot - and say things repeatedly but using different words and approaches - so that meaning can become clearly apparant and comprehended and so there wont be much chance for this logical "misinterpretation" that is nearly ALWAYS apparant - especially in mere "written words" themselves...
PURE MATHS - WOULD - DEMAND a PURE LOGIC - and look - the correct mathematical answer then would be TEN....But it would depend of course on the mathematical EQUATION as it was presented....But looking closely here - we are NOT dealing with pure maths OR a maths equation at all - we are dealing with logical COMPREHENSION of LANGUAGE - the structure of and order of the WORD used present the mathematical equation in a form that must first be deciphered correctly but is only hinted at in the words themselves
Really this is an English language issue rather than a maths issue..The way the queerie is worded is open to logical interpretation - and its not readily apparant if he means "addition or multiplication" - not at first - but when we look closely at the inherant meaning of the words chosen we see he MUST mean ADDITION... It doesnt matter if they run together side by side or if they run seperate - its about TOTAL units on the track (laps of the track)...
Look - the PARAMETER that we seek to work out, starts off here as a single Unit - the TRACK ITSELF - that is the ONLY IMPORTANT PART and the crux and pivot to the whole conundrum here - its about the TOTAL laps of this track (how many single units) !!!
Looked at like this it says clearly that Sue uses "two units" and that John then uses four times MORE units - and see four times the unit here is four SINGLE LAPS of the track - means of course TOTAL laps are two for Sue and now FOUR for John and between them they did SIX laps no more no less - and that IS the answer as the logic of the WORDS chosen expresses it..
It is an English comprehension logical problem - if he wants a pure maths comprehension problem to solve then the teacher MUST by necessity express it as a purely mathematical equation...As it is currently expressed the answer can only be SIX according the logic of the words -and as a pure maths equation the answer could only be TEN...
Folks - such issues are indeed WHY I my Self CAPITALISE and EMPHASISE a lot - and say things repeatedly but using different words and approaches - so that meaning can become clearly apparant and comprehended and so there wont be much chance for this logical "misinterpretation" that is nearly ALWAYS apparant - especially in mere "written words" themselves...
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It is "solution", and that is indeed something worth researching into.
Yeah, I notice the lack of respect and I don't approve of it. It is a good observation anyway.
The OP's question is also interesting in that it lampshades the conflict between accuracy and social acceptance, which is a deep and very consequential issue.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
That adults are arguing about the answer to this question says so much about the current state of adults.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Which is well illustrated by the number of posts it's generated here. Trouble with the math problem is that if one isn't familiar with the jargon of a particular field it's easy to misconstrue statements.
.
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks..
Actually - there is a deep and significant insight to be gained here - about a universal truth of all existance
Dont you just love LOGIC..??...lol....Its like - theres something magikal - we can see it clearly but its just out of reach - yet you simply MUST have it to be satisfied...lol...only "it" will do and nothing else can quite fill that need....
WHY is that..?... Why do we see something like this and immediately it captivates us..?...drives us to solve it and work it out - drives us to understand the LOGIC that we gliimpse around us always...WHY is logic so all consuming important..?...( it is really when we stop to think - logic really does defines everything)
This is why such a teasing little conundrum such as we have here - can generate huge amounts of attention over such an inconsequential issue - so it seems at the surface - BUT the real issue is one of our continual eternal search for GNOSIS - for complete understanding - dynamic living truth....THIS is what the mind seeks ALWAYS - the mind IS LOGIC - this logic is NATURE itself - and in such a conundrum as this the deep mind SEES it Self - the mystery and Enigma that We are - the mind is LIVING LOGIC and is always seeking this state of full Self awareness....
The MORTAL mind here mimicks that greater Self always - for EVERYTHING is MIND - and so little mortal mind ALWAYS strives to capture THAt logic of the grrater mnd that surrounds it - little mind here ALWAYS seeks then, to understand ALl the little secrets of the material world,wherever we find them - it is literally our very design and function TO do this - and so these little teasing conundrums often captivate the OPEN mind - but really it is a much much greater and UNIVERSAL truth that is being glimpsed - that truth IS logic itself - MUST be satisfied - understanding MUST be attained GNOSIS drives everything forward
Actually - there is a deep and significant insight to be gained here - about a universal truth of all existance
Dont you just love LOGIC..??...lol....Its like - theres something magikal - we can see it clearly but its just out of reach - yet you simply MUST have it to be satisfied...lol...only "it" will do and nothing else can quite fill that need....
WHY is that..?... Why do we see something like this and immediately it captivates us..?...drives us to solve it and work it out - drives us to understand the LOGIC that we gliimpse around us always...WHY is logic so all consuming important..?...( it is really when we stop to think - logic really does defines everything)
This is why such a teasing little conundrum such as we have here - can generate huge amounts of attention over such an inconsequential issue - so it seems at the surface - BUT the real issue is one of our continual eternal search for GNOSIS - for complete understanding - dynamic living truth....THIS is what the mind seeks ALWAYS - the mind IS LOGIC - this logic is NATURE itself - and in such a conundrum as this the deep mind SEES it Self - the mystery and Enigma that We are - the mind is LIVING LOGIC and is always seeking this state of full Self awareness....
The MORTAL mind here mimicks that greater Self always - for EVERYTHING is MIND - and so little mortal mind ALWAYS strives to capture THAt logic of the grrater mnd that surrounds it - little mind here ALWAYS seeks then, to understand ALl the little secrets of the material world,wherever we find them - it is literally our very design and function TO do this - and so these little teasing conundrums often captivate the OPEN mind - but really it is a much much greater and UNIVERSAL truth that is being glimpsed - that truth IS logic itself - MUST be satisfied - understanding MUST be attained GNOSIS drives everything forward
Skwim
Veteran Member
Hi Folks..
Actually - there is a deep and significant insight to be gained here - about a universal truth of all existance
Dont you just love LOGIC..??...lol....Its like - theres something magikal - we can see it clearly but its just out of reach - yet you simply MUST have it to be satisfied...lol...only "it" will do and nothing else can quite fill that need....
WHY is that..?... Why do we see something like this and immediately it captivates us..?...drives us to solve it and work it out - drives us to understand the LOGIC that we gliimpse around us always...WHY is logic so all consuming important..?...( it is really when we stop to think - logic really does defines everything)
This is why such a teasing little conundrum such as we have here - can generate huge amounts of attention over such an inconsequential issue - so it seems at the surface - BUT the real issue is one of our continual eternal search for GNOSIS - for complete understanding - dynamic living truth....THIS is what the mind seeks ALWAYS - the mind IS LOGIC - this logic is NATURE itself - and in such a conundrum as this the deep mind SEES it Self - the mystery and Enigma that We are - the mind is LIVING LOGIC and is always seeking this state of full Self awareness....
The MORTAL mind here mimicks that greater Self always - for EVERYTHING is MIND - and so little mortal mind ALWAYS strives to capture THAt logic of the grrater mnd that surrounds it - little mind here ALWAYS seeks then, to understand ALl the little secrets of the material world,wherever we find them - it is literally our very design and function TO do this - and so these little teasing conundrums often captivate the OPEN mind - but really it is a much much greater and UNIVERSAL truth that is being glimpsed - that truth IS logic itself - MUST be satisfied - understanding MUST be attained GNOSIS drives everything forward
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
"Times" does not mean addition. It means multiplication.
Four times two.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
When I was in elementary school, we started learning multiplication and story problems in second grade, and we were just given them to solve.
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks..
Shadow Wolf ; Yer I know the DEFINITION of the words and I agree with you - BUT you have misidentified the element we are ACTUALLY seeking - the actual PARAMETER - the very thing we are indeed to either multiply or add together - it is NOT "Sues time on track" - NOR is it "JOHNS time on track" these are irrelevant information at this stage - the parameter we are dealing with is but a SINGLE LAP OF THE TRACK - NOT "sues two laps" but the TRACK ITSELF !! a single lap which Sue just happens to do 2 of it states - and from which we can now work out easily the other part of the conundrum..
Look - take away the maths referance point - the numbers themselves - see now it says simply - If Sue runs around "THE TRACK" - and if John runs around THE TRACK - and understand that THE TRACK itself is the crux and pivot of the entire conundrum... Having established the basics we then can work out the details and add back in the specifics.. Im sure we used to cal this ALGEBRA when I was a kid...seemed easy then..lol..
And see then that it is now Sue doing 2 TIMES a SINGLE lap just as it states - and it is John doing 4 TIMES a SINGLE LAP just at it states - and that is ALWAYS going to be a TOTAL of just SIX laps - and that TOTAL itself is the thing we seek to define - problem solved no problem at all - logic is always our ally
Shadow Wolf ; Yer I know the DEFINITION of the words and I agree with you - BUT you have misidentified the element we are ACTUALLY seeking - the actual PARAMETER - the very thing we are indeed to either multiply or add together - it is NOT "Sues time on track" - NOR is it "JOHNS time on track" these are irrelevant information at this stage - the parameter we are dealing with is but a SINGLE LAP OF THE TRACK - NOT "sues two laps" but the TRACK ITSELF !! a single lap which Sue just happens to do 2 of it states - and from which we can now work out easily the other part of the conundrum..
Look - take away the maths referance point - the numbers themselves - see now it says simply - If Sue runs around "THE TRACK" - and if John runs around THE TRACK - and understand that THE TRACK itself is the crux and pivot of the entire conundrum... Having established the basics we then can work out the details and add back in the specifics.. Im sure we used to cal this ALGEBRA when I was a kid...seemed easy then..lol..
And see then that it is now Sue doing 2 TIMES a SINGLE lap just as it states - and it is John doing 4 TIMES a SINGLE LAP just at it states - and that is ALWAYS going to be a TOTAL of just SIX laps - and that TOTAL itself is the thing we seek to define - problem solved no problem at all - logic is always our ally
This could not have happened if the Normans hadn't invaded and messed up English.