Advaita beyond Idol worshiping

[Stormcry]

Hello,

There's a great saying by Lord Vishnu " Unless you know me as your self, you do not know me at all "
Worshiping idol is just a waste of time for who doesn't know his self Vishnu is pervading in all bodies and it is one without any duality. Speaking precisely, there's a difference between worshiping Knowledge and worshiping god's form. It is Nirguna and Saguna bhakti. These two are interconnected, among them Nirguna is the highest. When devotee worships his form, by the grace of god, ultimatelly, he gets an insight of his Nirguna Unmanifest nature, which is the highest and stated in Veda as Vishnu's absolute abode. At the end, acquiring advaita bhakti, he realizes himself as Brahman and eternally establishes in that nature. You may call it unimagined bhakti where there's no difference between devotee and god. They are so much loved by each other that they are now one.

Lord Vishnu in Bhagavata:

"I am present in every living entity as the Self. Those who neglect or disregard this omnipresence and engage themselves in the worship of the Deity in the temple, they are only making a show of themselves. That is like offering oblations into ashes instead of in the Fire. He who thinks of Me, residing in the bodies of other's, as different from his Self can never attain peace of mind. He never pleases Me even if he worships with proper rituals and paraphernalia. As long as one does not realise the omnipresent Me as resident in His own heart, so long has he to worship Me through images, performing all his prescribed duties." (‪#‎s‬ III – 29: 21 to 25)

Hari Om!

 

[Poeticus]

Are you suggesting that worshiping murti-s without the Advaitic bend is akin to pointless idolatry?

 

[Stormcry]

Are you suggesting that worshiping murti-s without the Advaitic bend is akin to pointless idolatry?

Alternatively, it may be if you have carefully read the above verse..

 

[Maya3]

I like what you wrote, but not that worshiping form is a waste of time. Worshiping form leads to concentration and to deep meditation that can lead to Self Realization.

Maya

 

[Stormcry]

I never said worshiping form is a waste of time

 

[Asha]

Hare Krsna Prabhu ji

As a Vaishnava who of course worships the lord in his Arca vigraha form , I will egnore your slip of calling the Arca vigraha form an ''Idol'', as I am sure you know that the all prevasive form of the Lord resides in the Murti.

Therefore the Murti once instaled is Not, an Idol !!! ,,,Tut Tut very naughty !

But for the sake of peace I will egnore that you said this.

"I am present in every living entity as the Self. Those who neglect or disregard this omnipresence and engage themselves in the worship of the Deity in the temple, they are only making a show of themselves. That is like offering oblations into ashes instead of in the Fire. He who thinks of Me, residing in the bodies of other's, as different from his Self can never attain peace of mind. He never pleases Me even if he worships with proper rituals and paraphernalia. As long as one does not realise the omnipresent Me as resident in His own heart, so long has he to worship Me through images, performing all his prescribed duties." (‪#‎s‬ III – 29: 21 to 25)

this quote is very missleading as it implies that those who worship the Deity do not aknowledge that the supreme resides in the heart of all beings , many who worship the supreme in deity form also aknoweledge this but through their sence of devotion and humility do not regard them selves as Qualitively or quantitavely equal to the Supreme, Thus with love they worship the lotus feet of the Lord.

So for those such as Vaisnava who understand that the lord resides in the heart of all beings this Verse is totaly irelevant, as their worship is not just for show, it is an act of Love and surrender.

I think you know this is irelevant, so why do you post it ?

You are prehaps just wanting to cause a little freindly Fight ???

Happy new year

Jai Shree Krishna

Asha

 

[तत्त्वप्रह्व]

Hello,
Hari Om!

Interesting, but afaik, nobody in the vaidik-dharma worships an idol.

There's a great saying by Lord Vishnu " Unless you know me as your self, you do not know me at all "

The very emphasis of 'knowing' implies jivAtma knowing one's own antaryamin paramatma. Can you provide the reference for this great saying so that it could be understood in context?

When devotee worships his form, by the grace of god, ultimatelly, he gets an insight of his Nirguna Unmanifest nature

Whose form is being spoken of here? Also, by advaitic definition of nirguna, isn't it impossible to have such insight?
[QUOTE"]acquiring advaita bhakti[/QUOTE]
This is quite an oxymoron. It is impossible to conceive of bhakti in the paramartha in advaita.

You may call it unimagined bhakti where there's no difference between devotee and god. They are so much loved by each other that they are now one.

Intriguing, which acharya's work in the advaita tradition are you referring to here, it would be interesting to learn more about this if you can provide the reference.

Lord Vishnu in Bhagavata:

"I am present in every living entity as the Self. Those who neglect or disregard this omnipresence and engage themselves in the worship of the Deity in the temple, they are only making a show of themselves. That is like offering oblations into ashes instead of in the Fire. He who thinks of Me, residing in the bodies of other's, as different from his Self can never attain peace of mind. He never pleases Me even if he worships with proper rituals and paraphernalia. As long as one does not realise the omnipresent Me as resident in His own heart, so long has he to worship Me through images, performing all his prescribed duties." (‪#‎s‬ III – 29: 21 to 25)

In the vaishnava recension of SB that i have, i couldn't locate these verses, but perhaps the numbering is different, will comment should i be able to find it.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

 

[Asha]

Hare Krishna Prabhu ji

"I am present in every living entity as the Self. Those who neglect or disregard this omnipresence and engage themselves in the worship of the Deity in the temple, they are only making a show of themselves. That is like offering oblations into ashes instead of in the Fire.

This is very much more about how one devotee sees another, than it is about how or what we worship, let this be a warning to those who treat a lower cast person as an outcaste.

He who thinks of Me, residing in the bodies of other's, as different from his Self can never attain peace of mind. He never pleases Me even if he worships with proper rituals and paraphernalia.

And how can one with such an on clean mind worship with the right motivation ? He canot, how can one that thinks he is lord above another be Humble enough to Worship the lord, he canot.

As long as one does not realise the omnipresent Me as resident in His own heart, so long has he to worship Me through images, performing all his prescribed duties." (‪#‎s‬ III – 29: 21 to 25)

the empasis again here is on the person who does not understand, so it says Has to worship through images.

The pure Vaisnava who sees the Lord everywhere not just in the hearts of others, surrenders his life by taking Sanyasa this way he dedicates even his body in the service of his Lord, yet even still when he walks into the temple the first thing he does is to bow to the Supreme, and given the chance he will worship the Deity form of the lord and encorage others to do the same , this is his prescribed duty is it not ?



This last sentance hardly even makse sence, It allmost feels as if something is missing inbetween images and Performing ? ''so long has he to worship Me through images, ....... performing all his prescribed duties." .....
may be it is a rather biased translation ?

surely the prescribed duties of each person are different, please remember that it is the prescribed duty of a Vaisnava to offer everything to the Lord before partaking them selves.

Jai Shree Krishna

Asha

 

[Maya3]

Worshiping idol is just a waste of time for who doesn't know his self Vishnu is pervading in

What did you mean by this then?

Maya

 

[Stormcry]

Pranam...

Interesting, but afaik, nobody in the vaidik-dharma worships an idol.

No, I who follow vaidika Dharma worship idol..

The very emphasis of 'knowing' implies jivAtma knowing one's own antaryamin paramatma.

There's only one kshetradnya in body. There are not TWO.

Whose form is being spoken of here? Also, by advaitic definition of nirguna, isn't it impossible to have such insight?

Vishnu's... No, it is possible.. Because worship of form ultimately reaches to the NIrguna because of its inconceivable all pervading nature..

acquiring advaita bhakti

This is quite an oxymoron. It is impossible to conceive of bhakti in the paramartha in advaita.

Yes, in Paramartha there's only Brahman. However Advaita Bhakti is a path to realize it..

Intriguing, which acharya's work in the advaita tradition are you referring to here, it would be interesting to learn more about this if you can provide the reference.

It was in figurative sense..

In the vaishnava recension of SB that i have, i couldn't locate these verses, but perhaps the numbering is different, will comment should i be able to find it.

अहं सर्वेषु भूतेषु भूतात्मावस्थितः सदा ।
तं अवज्ञाय मां मर्त्यः कुरुतेऽर्चाविडम्बनम् ॥ २१ ॥

"I am the self of all living beings"

 

[Stormcry]

What did you mean by this then?

Maya

I said worshiping idols is acceptable if the worshiper thinks all beings as the self ie as the vishnu.. He has no any duality in his mind.. He thinks god and the self are one and through loving devotion he acquires him and ultimately enters into that supreme, as said by Krishna in Gita.. "Acquiring my devotion he enters into the supreme"

 

[तत्त्वप्रह्व]

Namaste,

No, I who follow vaidika Dharma worship idol..

I think there is a confusion between worshiping 'in' the idol and 'as' the idol. The vaidika-dharma authorizes only the former, in which case your contention doesn't apply, and in case of the latter, its beyond the ambit of shastras. It is in this context that we have procedures of prANaprathiShTa, nyAsa etc that enables the anusandhAna of divine 'in' the idol. Both shrauta sutras, pAncharAtras, and smrities caution against worshipping divine as the idol.

There's only one kshetradnya in body. There are not TWO.

In the lines of upanishadic teaching - because of whom the eyes see but whom the eyes cannot see, because of whom the mind perceives but whom the mind cannot perceive, similarly because of whom the jivAtma knows but whom the jivAtma cannot fully know is the kshetragna. This doesn't preclude the very existence of jivAtma who is different from the paramAtma who is kshetragna.

No, it is possible.. Because worship of form ultimately reaches to the NIrguna because of its inconceivable all pervading nature

Bhakti begins and ends with saguNa brahman which is ultimately unreal. I feel this is just an attempt of sugar-coating the bitter advaitic pill The core message of advaita is to disengage from the vyAvaharika to realize the supposed pAramArthika unity, which naturally implies the more one engages with the vyAvaharika the more one gets entangled in it. So unless one accepts that vyAvahArika engagements are equally real and lead to pAramArthika, your suggestion is untenable.

अहं सर्वेषु भूतेषु भूतात्मावस्थितः सदा ।
तं अवज्ञाय मां मर्त्यः कुरुतेऽर्चाविडम्बनम् ॥ २१ ॥

Proves both the existence of several jivAs (note the bahuvachana) and the eternal existence of Vishnu in them. And because it specifies sadA, there will never be a time when these diverse jIvas cease to exist nor will He cease to exist within them. Since even though these jIvas are diverse and different, yet who always exists within them is always One, there can be only difference between the jivAtma and paramAtma that to eternal (sadA) for the same sarvabhUtAtmAvasthitatva has not been said of the jivAtma.

In the context of worship, the vaidika-dharma proceeds with this knowledge in the first place, which is why when doing prANaprathiShTa at own home, He is invoked into the murti from one's own self (the antaryamin rUpa) and in temples and others' homes on behalf of others, from the surya-bimba. Which is why i don't see the point of your contention - because it appears you are assuming everyone who isn't advaitic worships the idol as god, which is not true.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

 

[Stormcry]

Namaste,

I think there is a confusion between worshiping 'in' the idol and 'as' the idol. The vaidika-dharma authorizes only the former, in which case your contention doesn't apply, and in case of the latter, its beyond the ambit of shastras. It is in this context that we have procedures of prANaprathiShTa, nyAsa etc that enables the anusandhAna of divine 'in' the idol. Both shrauta sutras, pAncharAtras, and smrities caution against worshipping divine as the idol.

Pranam bandhu..

I know it. But after all it is idol. Devotees know that Krishna is of the form of knowledge and Vidnyana. I think devotees ultimately realize him as formless consciousness, not as any idol or divine idol or any form..

In the lines of upanishadic teaching - because of whom the eyes see but whom the eyes cannot see, because of whom the mind perceives but whom the mind cannot perceive, similarly because of whom the jivAtma knows but whom the jivAtma cannot fully know is the kshetragna. This doesn't preclude the very existence of jivAtma who is different from the paramAtma who is kshetragna.

In our material world, we perceive ourselves ie Jivatma as different from Paramatma. But in reality they are one, otherwise it would imply that our existence as Jivatma is real and so the jiva will remain in bondage forever, the logical theorem states that the thing which is real never disappears or dies.. The dreamer dreams himself something different from his self, but that doesn't make him actually different from the self. The same thing about Jivatma and Patramatma.

So unless one accepts that vyAvahArika engagements are equally real and lead to pAramArthika, your suggestion is untenable.

Maya can be removed by Maya. Ignorance can be removed by knowledge and both knowledge and ignorance are products of maya and imagined in the true base of atma/brahman. Bhakti which is of the nature of anti-ignorance will eventually vanish all ignorance and as ignorance vanishes knowledge also merges in brahman and the unmanifest state appears where there is the completeness of Brahman.

Su 1.9 talks of one who knows that Jiva, Iswara and Maya are nothing but Brahman becoming a Jiivanmukta. [This is achieved when the jiva overcomes the ignorance of his true nature as Brahman, engendered by Maya, and in that state of ignorance attributes reality to himself, the individual with limited knowledge, the omniscient Iswara and Maya which produces the bhokta and the bhogyam (i.e. the body-mind complex and the material universe); along with the understanding of his true nature as Brahman, he realizes that the sole real substance is Brahman and jivas, jagat, Iswara and Maya are all mithya]

Proves both the existence of several jivAs (note the bahuvachana) and the eternal existence of Vishnu in them.

I hope you're kidding here. Jiva and the self are two different things. Jiva is associated with mind, intellect and prana, while the self is associated with Brahman. Don't try to twist the meaning.. Vishnu is present in all beings as the self, not as different from the self..

And because it specifies sadA, there will never be a time when these diverse jIvas cease to exist nor will He cease to exist within them.

Jiva ceases the self never ceases because it is brahman. It is eternally present without any modification in its true nature. "Jiva merges in brahman" "Jiva becomes brahman" all these scriptural verses indicate annihilation of jivahood..

Since even though these jIvas are diverse and different, yet who always exists within them is always One, there can be only difference between the jivAtma and paramAtma that to eternal (sadA) for the same sarvabhUtAtmAvasthitatva has not been said of the jivAtma.

Again you talk against scriptures.. Your belief seems to be completely refuted by krishna himself.

Krishna says : : :

" There is multiplicity of Jivaatma so long as there is inequality among the three Gunas and while this multiplicity of atma doesn't get vanished from the mind , the Jeeva remains in bondage forever . "

[ bhagavata purana 11.10.32 ]

"As long as there is dependency ,there is fear of god.Those who get entangled in ‘I’ ,those who consider multiplicity and dependency of soul and those who don’t follow detachment , they get only sorrow . " [ BP 11.12.32]

“ avam samahit……..jyotishi sanyutam “ (BP 11.14.45)

Meaning: With his intellect thus established, he sees me in himself and himself actually merged in me (bramhan) like an individual light in the element of fire.

You get it? If Jiva is real and has eternal separate consciousness, then it would not merge in krishna or brahman.

 

[तत्त्वप्रह्व]

I know it. But after all it is idol.

It is not, thats the point

Devotees know that Krishna is of the form of knowledge and Vidnyana. I think devotees ultimately realize him as formless consciousness, not as any idol or divine idol or any form..

Now if you say its 'your' opinion, i accept. If you hold its the only right opinion, i disagree, for it contradicts several pramANas.

Maya can be removed by Maya. Ignorance can be removed by knowledge and both knowledge and ignorance are products of maya and imagined in the true base of atma/brahman. Bhakti which is of the nature of anti-ignorance will eventually vanish all ignorance and as ignorance vanishes knowledge also merges in brahman and the unmanifest state appears where there is the completeness of Brahman.

This is but mayavada dialectics, now you know why it is called mayavada [Maya can be removed by Maya] whereas other vaishNavas hold on the basis of Krishna's mAmeva ye prapadhyante mAyAmetAm taranti te - mAyA is removed by surrendering to Krishna.

Vishnu is present in all beings as the self, not as different from the self..

This could be your interpretation, which unfortunately doesn't represent the import of the verse you quoted; so its certainly not me who is twisting.

Your belief seems to be completely refuted by krishna himself.

I am just typing what He makes me type

From SB
guṇāḥ sṛjanti karmāṇi guṇo 'nusṛjate guṇān | jīvas tu guṇa-saṃyukto bhuṅkte karma-phalāny asau || 31
yāvat syād guṇa-vaiṣamyaṃ tāvan nānātvam ātmanaḥ | nānātvam ātmano yāvat pāratantryaṃ tadaiva hi || 32
yāvad asyāsvatantratvaṃ tāvad īśvarato bhayam | ya etat samupāsīraṃs te muhyanti śucārpitāḥ || 33

Clearly says karma arise from guNas... jIva when gets entangled in guNas is subjected to experiencing karma-phala (31) As long as there are agitations in guNas, until then the jIva being entangled in them is subjected to variegated experiences which results in jIvas subjugation (pāratantryaṃ) to guNas [note jIva and Atman are used interchangeably] (32). As long as this subjugation to guNas until then fear from Ishvara (in terms of experiencing consequences of karma)... (33) Perhaps only a semblance of support for the interpretation provided by you.

And more in the continuing section Krishna adds:
suparṇāv etau sadṛśau sakhāyau yadṛcchayaitau kṛta-nīḍau ca vṛkṣe | ekas tayoḥ khādati pippalānnam anyo niranno 'pi balena bhūyān || 11/11/6
It is beyond doubt there exist TWO (note the dvi-vachana suparṇāv etau sadṛśau sakhāyau yadṛcchayaitau) The greatest support you can get from this is the sadṛśau both being of sat-chit-Ananda.

evaṃ samāhita-matir mām evātmānam ātmani | vicaṣṭe mayi sarvātman jyotir jyotiṣi saṃyutam || 11/14/45
Note ātmani - having established oneself contemplating on Krishna, they behold Him within their own self as the Self of the Self - both being of sacchidaananda the only way is to perceive Him with the sacchidaananda rUpa of the jIva. Here too He is sarvAtman not the jIva who only beholds Him so. This sadrShya is represented in jyotir jyotiṣi saṃyutam.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

 

[Ekanta]

I said worshiping idols is acceptable if the worshiper thinks all beings as the self ie as the vishnu..

Hi, Hinduism♥Krishna....
We still have the problem that all cant start at advaita. All cant visualize that. What are they supposed to do?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Worship the idol as the deity, after all we are talking of those who have much to learn. It is better than no worship at all. It all began with Meera with an idol. 'Mere to Giridhar Gopala, doosro na koi'.