Advaita: What gives sentiency to a thing?

[Martin]

It's Okay. Good.



Okay. Well said.
May I ask a question here?

What do you mean by Manifestation? I see it's a very profound question and has of more importance, which I have these days about this Manifestation.

Thank you.

I'd assume that "manifestation" means appearance. Like everything we experience is an appearance to (in?) consciousness.

 

[Viswa]

I'd assume that "manifestation" means appearance. Like everything we experience is an appearance to (in?) consciousness.

In spirituality and in the field of paranormal matters, it is the creation or appearance of matter from unknown (or unmanifested) sources. It is also known as materialization. :=)

Hmm... Appearance. So what is this appearance? How or what appearance means/came to be called so?
Like, something which was not there, came into presence and that is Appearance or Manifestation?

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Hmm... Appearance. So what is this appearance? How or what appearance means/came to be called so?
Like, something which was not there, came into presence and that is Appearance or Manifestation?

Its always there in the subtlest/dematerialized/spirit state. It becomes perceptible to our senses only when it assumes forms.

 

[Viswa]

Its always there in the subtlest/dematerialized/spirit state. It becomes perceptible to our senses only when it assumes forms.

Always there in non-perceivable/subtle form. Yeah Right. So, from this you try to say, In Subtlest-Unmanifested State, No difference between Jiva and Universe and Maya and Brahman - even when always there as Jiva and Universe and Maya in spirit state, and when there happens to be Manifestation/Appearance, which is brought into perceptible experience, there is difference?

Jiva and Universe and Maya and 5 sheaths, is present both in Unmanifested State and Manifested State in it's Individuality - as eternally present. Right?

Names and Forms, is also present in Unmanifested State too, in Infinite Brahman, and if not - it wouldn't have been experienced in "Names and Forms". That's the meaning of "Always there". Right?

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Always there in non-perceivable/subtle form. Yeah Right. So, from this you try to say, In Subtlest-Unmanifested State, No difference between Jiva and Universe and Maya and Brahman, and when there happens to be Manifestation/Appearance, which is brought into perceptible experience, there is difference?

Exactly :=)

Just imagine a vast, infinite ocean (with no waves, ripples or bubbles).
Or imagine an infinite void or empty space (with no sun, moon, stars, galaxies, planets asteroids, or forms, but only emptiness)

In both these examples, there exists none other than the infinite ocean-water,
or none other than the infinite empty-space. Due to this reason, there is no sense of duality or multiplicity.
There is no distinction (you-me, subject-object, this-that etc.).
In this unmanifested state there exists only One infinite spirit, Brahman.
That's what Advaita says.

We the common folks see differences, due to our ignorance and identification with shapes and forms. But these very shapes and forms have their origin in the ultimate substance Brahman, just like icebergs, waves, bubbles are made up of water and nothing else.

 

[Viswa]

Exactly :=)

Just imagine a vast, infinite ocean (with no waves, ripples or bubbles).
Or imagine an infinite void or empty space (with no sun, moon, stars, galaxies, planets asteroids, or forms, but only emptiness)

In both these examples, there exists none other than the infinite ocean-water,
or none other than the infinite empty-space. Due to this reason, there is no sense of duality or multiplicity.
There is no distinction (you-me, subject-object, this-that etc.).
In this unmanifested state there exists only One infinite spirit, Brahman.
That's what Advaita says.

We the common folks see differences, due to our ignorance and identification with shapes and forms. But these very shapes and forms have their origin in the ultimate substance Brahman, just like icebergs, waves, bubbles are made up of water and nothing else.

Exactly. No doubt about it. Please check my edited Reply before,

Jiva and Universe and Maya and 5 sheaths, is present both in Unmanifested State and Manifested State in it's Individuality - as eternally present. Right?

Names and Forms, is also present in Unmanifested State too, in Infinite Brahman, and if not - it wouldn't have been experienced in "Names and Forms". That's the meaning of "Always there". Right?

From this - I say that, If there is no Names/shapes/forms in Unmanifested/Subtle State/Ultimate Source Brahman, it wouldn't have been experienced now in Names and etc., Right?

Maya is in Unmanifested State too, Prakriti is in Unmanifested State too. They have their Individuality in Subtle state, if not it wouldn't have been experienced in Appearance/manifestation/Gross State.

It's like in that Infinite Ocean, Bubbles and Waves are present too in Subtle form - Unmanifested.

Waves and Bubbles are in Subtle form in Infinite Ocean/Brahman too. It's, even in presence of all those, there is no sense of duality, there is no sense of non-duality, there is no sense even in presence of sense, as sense present subtle but not as appearance. So, No sense in Sense. No thoughts in Thoughts. No Maya in Maya. No Names and forms in Names and Forms.

I maybe wrong, but inquiring deeply into "Always there and Manifestation and Appearance and Unmanifestations" - It seems so. Correct me if I am misunderstood anything.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

With your examples of fire/heat and sky/blue, do you mean that Maya is how we experience Brahman?

The experience of Brahman is possible only when the mind transcends its impure, ignorant nature and dwells in its pure, calm nature. From what i've read elsewhere, maya is not completely evil and full of ignorance. Maya is made up of both knowledge and ignorance. But its mostly the latter that clouds our mind.
When the mind attains purity (i.e. dwells in maya's knowledge aspect) then only with the tool called mind, it experiences Brahman. This is my understanding.
... Some may say, one doesn't need mind or maya to experience brahman, because experience of brahman is a non-dual state, where the mind stops functioning. Yes, that is also true. But in my opinion, one needs maya or mind in its pure form to reach the destination called Brahman. In other words, maya or mind are pointers and simply points us or guides us to that destination. And when we reach IT, the mind/maya stops functioning.

And what about the analogy of clay and pot, is that similar?

I believe that the clay-pot analogy is used to describe the Brahman within the pot (sheaths) is identical to the Brahman outside the pot (sheaths). And that one needs to simply drop the identification with the pot (sheaths). It simply explains our true infinite nature. That we cannot be confined or limited by sheaths.

The gold-necklace analogy points us to our true nature (the substratum or the ultimate substance, Brahman) that gives rise to all names, shapes and forms.

Both these analogies don't explain much about how we should use maya/mind in its pure form to reach enlightenment.
They just point to our real infinite nature which is the substratum or foundation or ground of all reality or the ultimate cause).
:=)

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Jiva and Universe and Maya and 5 sheaths, is present both in Unmanifested State and Manifested State in it's Individuality - as eternally present. Right?

Maya is always present, eternal.
Both when manifestation remains and also when manifestation ceases.

From what I've known in the past when i was a dualist is that, the 4 inner sheaths that makes up the jiva remain in an unmanifested, dormant, seed like state, maintaining their individuality as long as they don't attain moksha. They remain in this dormant state, until the next creation starts. They stay like this either in the body of Vishnu (as per the Hare Krishnas) or in Mula-Prakriti (what the samkhyaas probably call pradhana).

I'm not sure, what happens to those who dies after Advaita moksha. As i said earlier, i have no knowledge whether their individuality remains in some higher realm or not ... But yes, until we attain moksha, there will remain individuality (the 4 inner sheaths) and rebirth, both in manifested and unmanifested state.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So many ideas, but could we look at a simple example?
Right now I'm looking at a tree in the garden. What is Brahman, and what is Maya?

The video concentrated on the woman's eye. They could have concentrated on a blade of grass for equal results.

 

[Viswa]

Maya is always present, eternal.
Both when manifestation remains and also when manifestation ceases.

From what I've known in the past when i was a dualist is that, the 4 inner sheaths that makes up the jiva remain in an unmanifested, dormant, seed like state, maintaining their individuality as long as they don't attain moksha. They remain in this dormant state, until the next creation starts. They stay like this either in the body of Vishnu (as per the Hare Krishnas) or in Mula-Prakriti (what the samkhyaas probably call pradhana).

Let's leave about Moksha, it's a different One.

So, you too see that "Maya is Eternal". Right? Means "Knowledge is Eternal, Ignorance is Eternal, Prakriti is Eternal, Purusha is Eternal, 5 sheaths is Eternal, AUM is Eternal, Bubbles is Eternal, Names is Eternal, Forms is Eternal - All Eternal in Unmanifested State, in Infinite Brahman, and only experiences of those are limited and changing in Manifestations/Appearances/Gross - but stuffs/everything are present eternally subtle/Unmanifested State"?

Even, Bubbles are present eternally in Infinite Ocean? Even, Pot is present eternally in Clay? Even, Necklace/Bracelet/Coins are eternally present in Gold in Subtle form?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The point is, both Jiva and Universe are names and forms (matter) which are manifestations of the infinite unmanifested spirit Brahman and so non-different from it. ;=)

What do you mean by Manifestation? I see it's a very profound question and has of more importance, which I have these days about this Manifestation.

Excellent question. Greg has his fixation on occult, you too have it (koshas, etc.). I have completely abandoned occult. So, for me, it is not any 'spirit of Brahman', but simply 'Brahman' itself that exists.
As for manifest and unmanifest, I believe Brahman has this property. It can be manifest as well as unmanifest. Existence (manifestation) is a human concept. We cannot visualize non-existence. But Brahman does not have to be bound by it. This is necessary, because otherwise we can give no reason for existence of Brahman. So, I consider 'Ex-nihilo' to be possible.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Both when manifestation remains and also when manifestation ceases.
I'm not sure, what happens to those who after Advaita moksha.

Maya folds up when Brahman is not manifested. Maya also does not exist for those who are in the know.
In Advaita, Moksha means understanding, and cessation of doubts. I was Brahman, I am Brahman and I will remain Brahman for all times.
As you know Sankara said:

"Na mrutyur na shanka na me jāti bhedha,
Pitā naiva me naiva mātā na janma,
Na bhandhur na mitram gurur naiva sishyah,

Aham nirvikalpo nirakara roopo,
Vibhutvascha sarvatra sarvendriyānām,
Na cha sangatam naiva mukthir na meyah,"

I do not have death or doubts or distinction of types,
I do not have either father or mother or even birth,
And I do not have relations or friends or teacher or students,
I am without alternatives, I am without form,
I am every where the essence of all senses,
I have no associations and am always redeemed, I have nothing that is 'mine'*,

You know I have problem with his last line, "Chidānanda roopah Shivoham, Shivoham" (basically about 'ānanda'. There is neither 'ananda' (bliss) nor 'duhkha' (sorrow) for Brhman). I have made slight changes according to my view in the translation that appears at Nirvana Shatkam - Works of Sankaracharya, Advaita Vedanta and Hindu Sacred Scriptures. So, excuse me for that.
* Nothing 'mine', because there is no 'your's', 'his' or 'hers'. I alone exist.

 

[Viswa]

Excellent question. Greg has his fixation on occult, you too have it (koshas, etc.). I have completely abandoned occult. So, for me, it is not any 'spirit of Brahman', but simply 'Brahman' itself that exists.
As for manifest and unmanifest, I believe Brahman has this property. It can be manifest as well as unmanifest. Existence (manifestation) is a human concept. We cannot visualize non-existence. But Brahman does not have to be bound by it. This is necessary, because otherwise we can give no reason for existence of Brahman. So, I consider 'Ex-nihilo' to be possible.

Thank you Aup. Yes, we cannot visualise non-existence other than as space.


It's not that they are Occult. All 5 Koshas are experience-able in normal life. I do experience all 5 daily, Bliss (arising in heart) and Prana and etc., But, All is Brahman, I tend to reduce individualising those Koshas, Everything is Brahman, all exists is Brahman as you said.

'Ex-Nihilo'? Can some'thing' come out of No'thing'? I don't think so. Something to come have to be present before, or else cannot appear/manifest/come forth/thought about/experienced.

Anyways, Thank you for the reply.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thank you Aup. Yes, we cannot visualise non-existence other than as space.

Space is not 'nothing'. It has time and four forces. Otherwise, there won't be any space. We can visualize space. What we cannot visualize is 'absolute nothing' - no space, no energy, no time.