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Age of Earth

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Several times, people have said that the biogenesis question is not a part of the theory of evolution, and perhaps it's not, but the question is still there. I keep reading that even the simple cell is so complex, that for all of the amino acids, etc...to have arranged themselves in the beginning is statistically impossible.
Then you read wrong. There is absolutely no indication whatsoever that complex structures cannot arise naturally, and we have already seen that amino acids form naturally under early earth conditions.

What is your opinion on how life came from non-life?
I don't know, I'm not a biologist.

It seems that even if you have the raw materials for something, it won't work if the parts are not arranged correctly.
And what evidence do you have that parts cannot be arranged by natural processes?

-and then what about the non-tangible parts of us like a soul or conscience?
Souls, as far as I am aware, don't exist. Conscience is a product of the brain. It is a result of physical processes in the same way as gravity is.

Is a human essentially a bunch of cells and chemical reactions, or do we also have souls?
Yes, and no.

I have read that some brain surgeons and neuroscientists have confirmed that there seems to be something else that gives us consciousness.
Where have you read this? Please note that I will not be accepting any religious website as a reliable source.

What do you think?
I think consciousness is a product of the brain.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Question: Do common features necessarily have to mean common ancestry? Couldn't they also possibly point to a common designer?

Which raises the question: what is so special about chimps to make God reuse their design in order to create the highest product of His creation? Not to speak of letting His own Son look like them.

So, what is more plausible? That God is very fond of chimps and gorillas, for some reason, or that we share a common ancestor with them?

How do biologists answer these questions?

By writing books. That should be read.

Ciao

- viole
 

Petra14

New Member
It's a fair question. I don't like to skirt the connection between Abiogenesis and Evolution. Evolutionary Theory applies to all things, not just living organisms.

How does water come from non-water?
How does Gold come from non-gold?
How does Nitrogen come from non-nitrogen?
How does life come from non-life?
I think they're all connected.

How did any of those things come to exist without the proper atomic and chemical alignment?
Once that's answered, where did those atoms come from?
What about their structure?
And where did those things which form the atomic structures come from?
And what of those things?
And so on....

You can play this thought experiment game all day long but eventually you'll come to a point where you can't find answers anymore or you start asking questions about things that are unknowable.
So it's best to stick with what's knowable, and that's quite a lot....

But that's the point. All of these things seem like they are so impossible naturalistically, that they seem to point to an outside creator. We do not suggest that water came from non-water, gold came from non-gold, etc..., because we claim that God created them, along with each animal kind, and there can be adaptation and speciation within each kind.
Do you think the Cambrian explosion might be an interesting example of many different distinct body plans all of a sudden coming into existence without having common ancestors?

Our behaviors, intelligence, problem solving skills, emotional reactions to events, self awareness, and contemplation are all things that I think we humans pride ourselves on. They're the very foundation of our concepts of souls and conscience. They are amazing attributes and testaments to the "miracle" of life.

All of those things are also easily observable in other animals, which we think to be below us on the hierarchy of organisms...
So do all of those animals have souls and consciousness as well, or is the concept just a distinctly human invention that we've made up?
I'm not arguing for or against the idea that we are conscious beings. But why do we try and limit souls and consciousness to humanity? Doesn't all life share similar attributes that we would otherwise limiti to the human soul or being or essence, or whatever?
All of our feelings and emotional bonds to thoughts and ideas are, essentially, just a very complex set of chemical reactions...yes.
That's why psychiatrists can prescribe chemical balancing drugs to patients and completely change their behavior and even their worldviews simply by adding a few chemicals to the mix, right?
Chemical reactions in those cells can completely alter someone's "natural" behavior - So if the drug-taking person completely changes their life, behavior, attitude and evetrything else about their lives just by adding a few extra chemicals to the brain, doesn't that punch a pretty big hole in the idea that they had this everlasting eternal soul that was implanted in them by god? Doesn't that post some questions, at least, about the nature of a person's being?

Good questions. Our ideas of man being special, above animals, his soul being immortal, and him being subject to a moral standard all come from the Bible, which we believe to be the final authority on all things. It does not mention animals having souls.

If we are a bunch of chemical reactions, are people responsible for their actions? If my son steals something, could he not claim that his chemicals made him do it?
If we have no intrinsic value greater than animals, is it okay to treat other people like animals? What would it ultimately matter what one bag of molecules and chemicals does to another? Without God, can one argue that something like rape, for instance is objectively "right" or "wrong"? On what grounds could you say something is "wrong"?

That's a good question about the drugs. I'm going to look into it.


Then you read wrong. There is absolutely no indication whatsoever that complex structures cannot arise naturally, and we have already seen that amino acids form naturally under early earth conditions.
And what evidence do you have that parts cannot be arranged by natural processes.

Attached is one of many articles describing the position.
 

Attachments

  • Evolution.pdf
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jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
All of these things seem like they are so impossible naturalistically, that they seem to point to an outside creator.
SEEMING like they must come from a creator because we don't know enough about something is hardly an argument - let alone something that we should base education on.
Surely you agree that "I don't know much about that, therefore there must be a God" isn't really a defensible position.

We do not suggest that water came from non-water, gold came from non-gold, etc..., because we claim that God created them, along with each animal kind, and there can be adaptation and speciation within each kind.
Do you think the Cambrian explosion might be an interesting example of many different distinct body plans all of a sudden coming into existence without having common ancestors?

You may not suggest it, but water did come from non-water. And gold did come from non-gold.
We know how elements and compounds are formed. We know where they came from, and it's from the bellies of stars. Heavy elements don't just exist magically, they are created in the bellies of dying stars - that's where the compounds that allow your to have dirt to stand on come from. That's where the chemicals and the elements that form your cell walls come from. There is no mystery to it, really.

No, the Cambrian explosion isn't what you're asserting here. It took place of over the course of 500 Million Years... The Cambrian Explosion was a period that lasted 8 times longer than the time period between your birth and the last T-Rex... It covers an enormous amount of time.
It's not like complex organism literally sprang into existence overnight.
To suggest such a thing shows a pretty serious misunderstanding of the science behind it on your part. No offense.

To properly critique something you have to first fully understand it, otherwise you're just chasing dead ends, and making arguments from ignorance.

Good questions. Our ideas of man being special, above animals, his soul being immortal, and him being subject to a moral standard all come from the Bible, which we believe to be the final authority on all things. It does not mention animals having souls.

To accept something as being correct without question is a little foolish, isn't it? Sure, it's easy to accept the ideas of others without putting more thought into it, but is that really the best way to ensure accuracy, by never questioning conclusions. So while the Bible may not mention animals having souls, have you ever taken time to study animal sociology and behavior? Perhaps you should, just over the course of a few weeks, brush up on it. Start to come to your own conclusions about the differences and similarities between human cognition and animal cognition. (I'll tell you from personal study it can utterly transform your perspectives)

The next question has to do with souls - are they even a thing, or just a concept that we've invented as part of our constant attempts to distinguish ourselves from our more primitive forms?

Anytime you openly question the authority of something, you run the risk of losing faith in the accuracy of it's teachings. I understand that. But if the Bible is true as you obviously assume it to be, then it won't teach you something that isn't accurate, right? The only way to know what is valuable and truthful and what is not, is through questioning... I'm pretty sure you'll find that same advice written in somewhere in Thessalonians.

If we are a bunch of chemical reactions, are people responsible for their actions? If my son steals something, could he not claim that his chemicals made him do it?
If we have no intrinsic value greater than animals, is it okay to treat other people like animals? What would it ultimately matter what one bag of molecules and chemicals does to another? Without God, can one argue that something like rape, for instance is objectively "right" or "wrong"? On what grounds could you say something is "wrong"?

Good question.

Even IF we are nothing but a handful of chemical reactions, we still have to be held accountable to the society that we surround ourselves with. If your son steals something, he isn't punished because stealing is inherently evil or vile. He's punished because that behavior affects more people than just him. It's essentially an inequality for the person from whom he stole something and so that particular behavior has to be addressed. Chemical responsibility or personal responsibility, the eradication of the behavior is the reason for the punishment - not because of an inherent "badness" or "goodness" of his soul.

The other questions you posited are answered the same way. Even if we have no other intrinsic value, we can't just go around treating people however we like because that would disrupt the societal peace that we maintain in our daily lives. If there is no security of person there can be no security of society. Animal groups operate the same way. They establish hierarchies and rules and they even have bloodlines that maintain those societally imposed boundaries - it's very interesting to watch. I'm specifically thinking about a species of Chinese Macaques that decide who, what, when, and where certain members of their groups can use the hot springs to keep warm in the Winter. They have a class-based system and there are severe punishments for those members of the lower classes that try to use the hot springs when the upper class macaques are using them... Just look it up.

I don't particularly believe there is such a thing as objective morality, but I may be in the minority. We each choose our own personal moral code, and constantly change it and adapt it over the course of our lives, teaching it both directly and indirectly to our children. Over time, we eventually have populations of people who generally share a very similar moral code. And so we find that where those moral codes overlap we assume a sense of objective morality. So as a thought experiment, imagine a bizarro world in which the value of rape was somehow lauded. Where women were glad to have it happen and felt proud that they were chosen. Imagine a world where men's social status was attached to the amount or quality of woman that he could conquer... It's strange, I know. But image that value system carrying on for generations until it finally got to you and me - would we suddenly assume that rape culture was inherently wrong and that it needed to be wiped from the face of the Earth, or would we accept it as a wholly good thing, like we did so many other morals and thoughts that our forefathers passed down to us?

So on what grounds do I say that something is wrong or that something is right? I judge those things through my own moral framework, which is influenced by the culture around me, direct teaching from parents and mentors, and from whatever else I've picked up along the way... I judge those things based on how they affect the perpetrators and how the affect the victims. I judge those things based on how they affect society as a whole and how they affect the individual. I judge those things a lot of ways - I just don't attribute that judgement to a supreme being that has established rules beyond questioning.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
.

If we are a bunch of chemical reactions, are people responsible for their actions? If my son steals something, could he not claim that his chemicals made him do it?
If we have no intrinsic value greater than animals, is it okay to treat other people like animals? What would it ultimately matter what one bag of molecules and chemicals does to another? Without God, can one argue that something like rape, for instance is objectively "right" or "wrong"? On what grounds could you say something is "wrong"?

God can only provides an external form of subjective morality not objective morality as objective morality would be a thing that exist independent of the mind. The fact that you give authority to God does not make it objective. If you grant God morality just because you favor it does not make it more reasonable than anyone else arguing for their own position of morality. More so the Bible displays a subjective morality which changes depending on God's mood more than any reasoning behind it. Likewise you accept God's authority based on your faith rather than any reasoned position.

Is genocide wrong? If yes then God is immoral.

Is slavery wrong? If yes then God is immoral.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Which raises the question: what is so special about chimps to make God reuse their design in order to create the highest product of His creation? Not to speak of letting His own Son look like them.
You can also add that the internal anatomy of pigs and humans are very similar.
 
Yes it should! Should we be teaching every religions' creation myth in school along side the only one we have evidence for? What about germ theory, should people who believe that diseases are caused by demonic possessions (like they did in the middle ages) be allowed to teach medical students their opinions, despite the great strides the Middle East (muslims) were making while christians were back in Europe bleeding people dry and drilling holes in their heads trying to get the demons out? Have you no idea how ridiculous you sound? Believe what you want to about what comes after this life, but that's your limit, okay? When your beliefs affect my life, ground them in fact.



That sounds great, we need more atheists. This might be the time to share with you the fact that I was raised by atheists and am an atheist myself. So, the assumption that everyone believes something and will come to it on their own may not be as true as you think. My husband and I are both atheists, and so far our kid laughs at religious dogma. She hasn't heard any yet that make her think "hmmmm . . . . sounds legit". Sure you want to keep this point?


Well thank goodness for small favors.

1. Look, you can believe all that if you wish. But think on this if you will...tell people they should think this way...or that way...or in any way that you find acceptable and no less, and you make yourself no better than those who constantly preach about the thing you hate...RELIGION. It's up to you

All I say is let the public decide. You're the one losing time for other things more important by worrying about what others think for themselves. If my beliefs or those of other Believers affect your life...your problem...

2. You're an atheist...congratulations...live and prosper!

3. I don't get that last comment, but none of it matters

4. You hate religion...I'm happy for you..
 
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No. Facts exist independent of your opinion of their factualness.


Yes, and when you hold opinions that defy the facts of the matter in question, you look ridiculous to those of us who grasp, even at a basic level, what the facts say. :rolleyes:


No. Facts are those things which are not in question because we have evidence attesting to their fact-ness.


Ah, the crux of the matter. Basically, what you just said is "I'm not going to learn anything I don't already know, if it kills me!" You're like the group of kindergartners running around the playground with their fingers in their ears singing "lalalalala" loudly while the end-of-recess bell rings. :D


Congratulations . . . were you expecting a party?


Well that makes 2 of us.


Wrong. I'll say it again: facts exist independent of your opinion of their factualness.

:D

No. Facts exist independent of your opinion of their factualness.


Yes, and when you hold opinions that defy the facts of the matter in question, you look ridiculous to those of us who grasp, even at a basic level, what the facts say. :rolleyes:


No. Facts are those things which are not in question because we have evidence attesting to their fact-ness.


Ah, the crux of the matter. Basically, what you just said is "I'm not going to learn anything I don't already know, if it kills me!" You're like the group of kindergartners running around the playground with their fingers in their ears singing "lalalalala" loudly while the end-of-recess bell rings. :D


Congratulations . . . were you expecting a party?


Well that makes 2 of us.


Wrong. I'll say it again: facts exist independent of your opinion of their factualness.

:D

Whatever. Good luck with all that..I've explained everything in my previous comments and I don't live in cyberspace
 
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So you don't care if your beliefs are true? Do beliefs not inform actions?


I agree, people should have the right to decide their own religious beliefs and practices. But that has nothing to do with facts or science.


I also agree, but do you honestly think that it is responsible to teach children that something that is demonstrably true has an alternative explanation that has absolutely no evidence in support of it whatsoever? Are you in favour of teaching alchemy alongside chemistry, for example, and letting children believe whichever they personally find more convincing? What about history? Should we teach our children about the moon landing conspiracies as well as the moon landing? Or teach them holocaust denial theories in history? At what point is something a fact that should be taught as such and something that we should "let children decide for themselves"?

Just continue to follow whatever it is you're doing, and good luck with all that. I've got other and better things to worry about
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
1. Look, you can believe all that if you wish. But think on this if you will...tell people they should think this way...or that way...or in any way that you find acceptable and no less, and you make yourself no better than those who constantly preach about the thing you hate...RELIGION. It's up to you

All I say is let the public decide. You're the one losing time for other things more important by worrying about what others think for themselves. If my beliefs or those of other Believers affect your life...your problem...
Oh, I get it. So when someone tells me I'm evil and should go to hell and tries to force religion on to children and force evolution and proper science out of classrooms or tries to force through legislation that actively discriminates against groups on religious grounds or tries to take away your rights, I shouldn't even try to disagree with them or change their mind at all because that makes me no better than them. Makes total sense. We should all just let people think whatever they want and never oppose or question their beliefs. Got it.

Just continue to follow whatever it is you're doing, and good luck with all that. I've got other and better things to worry about
I'll put it simply: beliefs NEVER get a free pass. If you're unwilling to confront or debate against beliefs you don't agree with, then you are a moral coward.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
1. Look, you can believe all that if you wish. But think on this if you will...tell people they should think this way...or that way...or in any way that you find acceptable and no less, and you make yourself no better than those who constantly preach about the thing you hate...RELIGION. It's up to you
I don't "preach" about religion, though I'm sure you interpret that way. What I do is ask difficult questions when folks insist I should adopt their belief, or accept it as a better explanation than what science has evidence for. I don't need to "think" on anything, but as long as we're exchanging you-need-to's, then you need to accept that neither religion, nor the religious, seem to have any acceptable answers to the questions I ask and recognize that for what it is: a failure on the part of religion to remain reasonable, and on the religious to supply reasonable belief.

All I say is let the public decide. You're the one losing time for other things more important by worrying about what others think for themselves. If my beliefs or those of other Believers affect your life...your problem...
It occurs to me that we're having two enormously different conversations. Despite what appears to be your rancor at, and perhaps fear of, my questioning religion I have no desire to deconvert anyone. In that regard, you've nothing to fear from me, and are perfectly welcome to listen to my explanations and converse with me no further, precious few choose that option. I also have no fear of explaining why a particular religious belief doesn't work for me. But what I will argue against until my last breath is the prostitution of religion into our government, my rights, and our bedrooms. I will not accept in our public schools except in a history of religions or mythology classroom. I don't want to see the top 10 hits list carved in stone on the courthouse lawn. But you can hang that crap in front of your house, your church, or your privately owned business for all I care.

2. You're an atheist...congratulations...live and prosper!
Thank you. I'm having a party for myself next Tuesday. There will BBQ'd babies, and all are invited.

3. I don't get that last comment, but none of it matters
The one where I expressed agreement with you that religion doesn't belong in the science or history classroom? That's actually where I began to see that we're not having the same conversation. Mostly because you appear to have some preconceived notions about what atheists are, and despite what I actually wrote, you chose to take it as an attack religion rather than a push back against religion's pushing into places it doesn't belong. Sorta like you pushing back against me when you think I'm pushing into places I don't belong. So basically what you're demanding is not something you're willing to allow, at least not to certain types.

4. You hate religion...I'm happy for you..
Not really, no. I could, given the *** of itself religion often makes into people's lives. It's killing people on the other side of the world, and trying really hard to deny them rights over here. But religion is just the tool. It's the people using it that I don't like much. Hate is a really strong word, and if you knew anything about me, you'd know I never use it. ;)[/QUOTE]
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
Just continue to follow whatever it is you're doing, and good luck with all that. I've got other and better things to worry about
If you're not interested in conversations or debates, there are areas of this forum where that is not allowed. Perhaps you'd be happier there.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
They do. However the public doesn't get to decide what fact is because it is not a popularity contest. It is either true or it isn't. "like" isn't a factor.
I'm not sure the Texas textbook committee is aware of this. Can you let them know please? Thanks! :D
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I'm not sure the Texas textbook committee is aware of this. Can you let them know please? Thanks! :D
I have signed many a ppetitionalready. Its terrible when ignorant folk get a lot of power and then enforce their particular brand of ignorance on others.

*edit:
Though thankfully it still holds true that what is true is true regardless of who thinks otherwise.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
I have signed many a ppetitionalready. Its terrible when ignorant folk get a lot of power and then enforce their particular brand of ignorance on others.

*edit:
Though thankfully it still holds true that what is true is true regardless of who thinks otherwise.
True dat.
 

Petra14

New Member
SEEMING like they must come from a creator because we don't know enough about something is hardly an argument - let alone something that we should base education on.
Surely you agree that "I don't know much about that, therefore there must be a God" isn't really a defensible position.

True. Since I am not a scientist, my articulation is not there yet. However, when I read creation arguments made by real, multi-PhD'd scientists, I do find them to be more convincing. We definitely disagree there, and despite what you might think, I have read from both sides. I also know God to be evident not just physically, but spiritually too, which cannot be tested in a lab. If the majority of the world believes in a spiritual reality, does that make us a bunch of dummies? Are people like Ravi Zacharias and R.C.Sproul just dumb for asserting God, though they are brilliant?



Anytime you openly question the authority of something, you run the risk of losing faith in the accuracy of it's teachings. I understand that. But if the Bible is true as you obviously assume it to be, then it won't teach you something that isn't accurate, right? The only way to know what is valuable and truthful and what is not, is through questioning... I'm pretty sure you'll find that same advice written in somewhere in Thessalonians..

Very true. And even if I have not gone deeply into every field of science imaginable, I have done the rigorous questioning of the historicity and accuracy of the manuscripts of the Bible, along with the credibility of Jesus' claim to be God, and I have looked into archaeology. I was once in total rebellion against God, but have come to have total confidence in the Bible as being truthful and authoritative.


Even IF we are nothing but a handful of chemical reactions, we still have to be held accountable to the society that we surround ourselves with. If your son steals something, he isn't punished because stealing is inherently evil or vile. He's punished because that behavior affects more people than just him. It's essentially an inequality for the person from whom he stole something and so that particular behavior has to be addressed. Chemical responsibility or personal responsibility, the eradication of the behavior is the reason for the punishment - not because of an inherent "badness" or "goodness" of his soul.


So on what grounds do I say that something is wrong or that something is right? I judge those things through my own moral framework, which is influenced by the culture around me, direct teaching from parents and mentors, and from whatever else I've picked up along the way... I judge those things based on how they affect the perpetrators and how the affect the victims. I judge those things based on how they affect society as a whole and how they affect the individual. I judge those things a lot of ways - I just don't attribute that judgement to a supreme being that has established rules beyond questioning.


So, if the wrongness of a behavior is only measured in terms of how/if it affects someone else, is there such thing as personal morality? Is it wrong to hate (if that hatred is never acted upon)? -to lust?-to view pornography? What about a "little white lie" that "doesn't hurt anyone"? If it doesn't affect anyone else, is it still wrong?
If we each make up a standard using our own reasoning as the guideline, it would seem that we would want to set the moral bar pretty low. Then, if we also get to be the judge as to whether or not we upheld that standard, we would also tend to put ourselves in the right as much as possible.
If there is no real, objective moral standard given by someone outside ourselves, can there be real, objective, justice? Should our laws be based upon what is popular at a given time? It would seem that anything, given enough time without God, could be permissible, such as your rape culture example. I think man's reasoning is often faulty and self-serving.

Question: For an atheist, why does it make sense to care about other people? Is it only because caring about others keeps peace and security, which makes me happy and comfortable? You obviously do care about others, but I am wondering how it makes sense in a survival of the fittest world. If caring for others is an evolved trait, does that mean that people who don't care for others are just less evolved? Also, why does an atheist care about the human race progressing, if, in his view, when we die, we just cease to exist and never knew we were here? Should personal pleasure be the goal while we are here, if there is nothing after we die?

I know these questions are worded crudely, but they are things I wonder. --also short on time.

In a biblical worldview, we are to care for others, because we believe each person is a unique creation of God and as such, each is worthy of dignity and respect. Also, we serve God by serving others. Sure, we fall short, but that is the ideal.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
True. Since I am not a scientist, my articulation is not there yet. However, when I read creation arguments made by real, multi-PhD'd scientists,
Multi-PhD? In what? And was the school accredited in which they received their degree. Also is it in a field relevant to their claims?
I do find them to be more convincing. We definitely disagree there, and despite what you might think, I have read from both sides. I also know God to be evident not just physically, but spiritually too, which cannot be tested in a lab. If the majority of the world believes in a spiritual reality, does that make us a bunch of dummies? Are people like Ravi Zacharias and R.C.Sproul just dumb for asserting God, though they are brilliant?
I wouldn't call it "dumb". I may call it foolish though that is my subjective opinion. I did a little reading and Ravi Zacharias nearly committed suicide when he was 17. Apparently he was brought into the fold when he was at his weakest during this stage and was talked to by an evangelical local priest. This set in him some of the deepest roots of philosophy that most likely bases his whole life to the point that he wouldn't know who he was without it. I could make the argument that if a Muslim religious leader and went to go see him he could have been a fanatical Muslim. But I won't go so far as that is a here say. Either way he has only ever received and undergraduate in biblical studies and doesn't seem to be accredited anywhere in terms of science or even philosophy Sporul hasn't obtained any degree's of any kind that I was able to find but has made a ton of money by selling the same book multiple times with different titles all with the same revolving theme. He is certainly brilliant in being able to write things that appeal to his target audience but nothing more.

. I haven't seen anything that would make them "brilliant" in terms of accomplishments. Did you have something more specific on them?
Very true. And even if I have not gone deeply into every field of science imaginable, I have done the rigorous questioning of the historicity and accuracy of the manuscripts of the Bible, along with the credibility of Jesus' claim to be God, and I have looked into archaeology. I was once in total rebellion against God, but have come to have total confidence in the Bible as being truthful and authoritative.
How so? At the absolute best the documents are shadowed in mystery and at worse discredited. You have have had a rebellious moment but I don't think for an instant that you were truly and objectively non-religious looking for a way to disprove god and simply came up with answers that verified your long lost and forgotten faith.
So, if the wrongness of a behavior is only measured in terms of how/if it affects someone else, is there such thing as personal morality? Is it wrong to hate (if that hatred is never acted upon)? -to lust?-to view pornography? What about a "little white lie" that "doesn't hurt anyone"? If it doesn't affect anyone else, is it still wrong?
If we each make up a standard using our own reasoning as the guideline, it would seem that we would want to set the moral bar pretty low. Then, if we also get to be the judge as to whether or not we upheld that standard, we would also tend to put ourselves in the right as much as possible.
If there is no real, objective moral standard given by someone outside ourselves, can there be real, objective, justice? Should our laws be based upon what is popular at a given time? It would seem that anything, given enough time without God, could be permissible, such as your rape culture example. I think man's reasoning is often faulty and self-serving.
There are real moral s standards outside ourselves. Generally it is refereed to as society. I cannot simply say murder is okay and everyone else goes along with it. Just as someone else cannot simply murder me or my family without me getting upset about it. There can be moral standards without god.
Question: For an atheist, why does it make sense to care about other people? Is it only because caring about others keeps peace and security, which makes me happy and comfortable? You obviously do care about others, but I am wondering how it makes sense in a survival of the fittest world. If caring for others is an evolved trait, does that mean that people who don't care for others are just less evolved? Also, why does an atheist care about the human race progressing, if, in his view, when we die, we just cease to exist and never knew we were here? Should personal pleasure be the goal while we are here, if there is nothing after we die?

I know these questions are worded crudely, but they are things I wonder. --also short on time.

In a biblical worldview, we are to care for others, because we believe each person is a unique creation of God and as such, each is worthy of dignity and respect. Also, we serve God by serving others. Sure, we fall short, but that is the ideal.
I care for others because I have empathy. I evolved that empathy. If you want to know how "survival of the fittest" works with "empathy and altruism" its simple. Working together as a unit we are stronger than if we were divided. Almost all mammals have a mother instinct that drives them to protect their young. If they didn't protect their young their children wouldn't survive. Every single organism dies. In a way any specific individual life is meaningless in the grand scheme of survival but which bloodlines survive create the trends that we see in the animal kingdom. It is better for me to die and my child to live. It is better for me to die and my family live. It is better for me to die and my tribe live.

Personal sacrifice can mean survival of many others. Collaboration within groups infinitely increases their effectiveness at survival. As humans we don't have fangs, thick coats of fur or massive tusks to simply survive on our own. We have to work together in order to make food, hunt, protect ourselves, ect. Many other animals live this way too. In fact every single social structure of animals functions along this very basic concept.
 
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