Agnostic Sojourner

[Ali Winters]

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum and it has been a while since I engaged in religious discussions. I have found a renewed interest in exploring the foundation of my agnosticism and invite any critiques of agnosticism or ideas on areas to explore. I may not present as your typical agnostic as I consider myself a pure agnostic with a central stance on a lack of knowledge of both theistic and atheistic principles. That said, I tend to find more in common with atheists in general but am intrigued by the ontological and consciousness arguments for a creator/god.

Thanks for reading my intro.
Ali

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Warm welcomes.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Hello, and welcome to Religious Forums.

 

[sun rise]

Welcome to RF

 

[The Hammer]

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum and it has been a while since I engaged in religious discussions. I have found a renewed interest in exploring the foundation of my agnosticism and invite any critiques of agnosticism or ideas on areas to explore. I may not present as your typical agnostic as I consider myself a pure agnostic with a central stance on a lack of knowledge of both theistic and atheistic principles. That said, I tend to find more in common with atheists in general but am intrigued by the ontological and consciousness arguments for a creator/god.

Thanks for reading my intro.
Ali

Welcome to the forum. Enjoy your stay. Don't **** off Staff and you'll do fine. You'd be surprised at the number of agnostic theists .

ie... We can't know for certain, but we've encountered deities before.

 

[Stevicus]

Welcome to RF!

 

[dybmh]

nice to meet you

 

[Ali Winters]

Welcome to the forum. Enjoy your stay. Don't **** off Staff and you'll do fine. You'd be surprised at the number of agnostic theists .

ie... We can't know for certain, but we've encountered deities before.

Thank you for your reply, Hammer. I appreciate the welcome! I have not encountered any deities to my knowledge but I do believe there is something beyond the natural/material world. I just can't grasp it enough to understand it just yet. Again, thank you for the warm welcome!

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but am intrigued by the ontological and consciousness arguments for a creator/god.

Welcome to the forum, Ali, which means 'friend' in colloquial Hindi. Strong atheist here. Why be impressed by spurious arguments? But more when you join the discussions. Enjoy your stay.

 

[Ali Winters]

Welcome to the forum, Ali (which means 'friend') in colloquial Hindi. Strong atheist here. Why be impressed by spurious arguments? But more when you join the discussions.

There is no time like the present, my friend. Thank you for your welcome and the posed question. The ontological argument leaves me in a conundrum as to the foundation of my moral beliefs. Perhaps not a strong case for a specific god, as that bridges into epistemology, where theism sinks....fast. But I don't like the idea of my moral beliefs not being grounded in a higher (not necessarily divine) purpose. As to consciousness, when I contemplate my own consciousness, I can't help but be in awe. It is there but not measurable to the degree I would like. Is it a window to the soul?

 

[idea]

Thank you for your reply, Hammer. I appreciate the welcome! I have not encountered any deities to my knowledge but I do believe there is something beyond the natural/material world. I just can't grasp it enough to understand it just yet. Again, thank you for the warm welcome!

Conscience, self-awareness, the world of thoughts and ideas - that's where it gets fuzzy for me, explaining our minds. Not affiliated - but spiritual for me - is there a better word for spirit without so much baggage?

Welcome

 

[Ali Winters]

Conscience, self-awareness, the world of thoughts and ideas - that's where it gets fuzzy for me, explaining our minds. Not affiliated - but spiritual for me - is there a better word for spirit without so much baggage?

Welcome

Excellent question - I agree. Spirit, soul, etc are words that are loaded with assumptions. I wish there was a way to describe these things with ineffable qualities without feeling weird about how it may be received.

 

[Windwalker]

I do believe there is something beyond the natural/material world. I just can't grasp it enough to understand it just yet.

And not grasping it is the key to knowing it. Welcome to the forums!

 

[Aupmanyav]

The ontological argument leaves me in a conundrum as to the foundation of my moral beliefs. As to consciousness, when I contemplate my own consciousness, I can't help but be in awe. It is there but not measurable to the degree I would like. Is it a window to the soul?

Morals are created by society.
Sure, awesome, brain is a super computer with 86 billion transistors and fuzzy logic.
Being an atheist, I do not believe in existence of soul.

 

[Windwalker]

Excellent question - I agree. Spirit, soul, etc are words that are loaded with assumptions.

The way I look at it, is that there is a wide spectrum of views of what those as words point to. For me personally, I've chosen not to give away the power of those words as metaphors, to the least inspiring of those views on what those mean.

For instance, a teenager speaking of love doesn't truly capture the depths of what that word means to those with greater life experience. But I'm not going to apologize for using that word in speaking in an adult's context. A teeenager will never understand what that word means in my use of it, until they have the context of the experience of what it is being an adult themselves.

I wish there was a way to describe these things with ineffable qualities without feeling weird about how it may be received.

You can't control how others will hear it. You can only speak from the context of your own experience, and others with similar experience will hear and understand the meaning without confusion. Those without the context of the similar experience, simply won't understand no matter what words you try to use.

And by the way, "ineffable" by definition means beyond words. So therefore, words pointing to what is beyond words, is simply poetry. But poetry does speak to truth. If it can be defined, then there is no need for metaphors. "The Tao that can be named, is not the eternal Tao.", in other words.

 

[Ali Winters]

Morals are created by society.
Sure, awesome, brain is a super computer with 86 billion transistors and fuzzy logic.
Being an atheist, I do not believe in existence of soul.

Agreed. As an agnostic, morals generally reflect culture - this is primarily why moral relativism is a natural fit. I also believe morals have within them, an evolutionary advantage (ie. if I take care of others in my group, I will have a better chance of survival) and reflect pleasure-seeking behavior (ie. if I help this person, then I will feel good about myself and my deed). However, this doesn't speak to how I might oppose behaviors that are contrary to my culture, or that threaten my (or others) survival or cause me (or others) pain. In essence, I should have no problem with what anyone else does, even if (for example) someone tortured and killed a baby just for fun. If everything is morally relative and there is no real objective morality, then it should not bother me. But it does. It bothers me a great deal. And because of moral relativism and no higher purpose to serve aside from my own pleasure or survival, I have no foundation for the belief that it is wrong FOR ANYONE to torture and kill a baby for fun. That is the ontological argument and it has me stumped. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Ali Winters]

The way I look at it, is that there is a wide spectrum of views of what those as words point to. For me personally, I've chosen not to give away the power of those words as metaphors, to the least inspiring of those views on what those mean.

For instance, a teenager speaking of love doesn't truly capture the depths of what that word means to those with greater life experience. But I'm not going to apologize for using that word in speaking in an adult's context. A teeenager will never understand what that word means in my use of it, until they have the context of the experience of what it is being an adult themselves.


You can't control how others will hear it. You can only speak from the context of your own experience, and others with similar experience will hear and understand the meaning without confusion. Those without the context of the similar experience, simply won't understand no matter what words you try to use.

And by the way, "ineffable" by definition means beyond words. So therefore, words pointing to what is beyond words, is simply poetry. But poetry does speak to truth. If it can be defined, then there is no need for metaphors. "The Tao that can be named, is not the eternal Tao.", in other words.

Good advice, Windtalker. Thank you for this wisdom. I will have to contemplate your words more. They are really helpful.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum and it has been a while since I engaged in religious discussions. I have found a renewed interest in exploring the foundation of my agnosticism and invite any critiques of agnosticism or ideas on areas to explore. I may not present as your typical agnostic as I consider myself a pure agnostic with a central stance on a lack of knowledge of both theistic and atheistic principles. That said, I tend to find more in common with atheists in general but am intrigued by the ontological and consciousness arguments for a creator/god.

Thanks for reading my intro.
Ali

Read my signature.

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[lewisnotmiller]

Welcome to RF. May all your threads be fruitful.

 

[Aupmanyav]

However, this doesn't speak to how I might oppose behaviors that are contrary to my culture, or that threaten my (or others) survival or cause me (or others) pain. In essence, I should have no problem with what anyone else does, even if (for example) someone tortured and killed a baby just for fun. If everything is morally relative and there is no real objective morality, then it should not bother me. But it does. It bothers me a great deal. And because of moral relativism and no higher purpose to serve aside from my own pleasure or survival, I have no foundation for the belief that it is wrong FOR ANYONE to torture and kill a baby for fun. That is the ontological argument and it has me stumped. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sure, people will discuss this dilemma in 'discussion and debate' forums (e.g., in General Religious Debates). Presently we are in the introduction forum, and IMHO, discussion here is not appreciated by the forum rules.