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Agnostics: You're Atheists

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It becomes much less complicated when u throw the whole "God" argument away and realize no one actually knows a thing.

And how do you know that?


If you never second guess yourself on your beliefs, good for you. But we both know you do. Agnostics don't have to. And that's not fear, it's honesty.

The interesting thing about agnostic, as opposed to labels/categories like deist, theist, atheist, christian, etc., is that we aren't dealing with a word which developed organically in some culture. Atheism, for example, did not originally mean either a disbelief in religious/spiritual notions or a disbelief in god. It meant something more akin to being blasphemous or sacrilegious, and over time (and incorporation into other languages) took on new meanings.

With agnostic, not only do we know the origin of the word, we know exactly how it came to be and what it meant and why. Thomas Huxley, in 1869, coined the term "agnostic" at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society. He was pressured to label his position, and as he puts it "I took thought, and invented what I conceived to be the appropriate title of 'agnostic'. It came into my head as suggestively antithetic to the 'gnostic' of Church history, who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant." (Science and Christian Tradition: Essays by Thomas Huxley).

Of course, the label did not stay unique to Huxley but (as words are wont to do) went off and made a name for itself. A little more than a decade later the term was already one of controversy.

But that (and other historical notes) are less important than characterizing agnosticism not having to "second guess" yourself. Whatever controversies arose after Huxley (who responded to these uses), arose from discussions, questioning, and philosophical inquiry. Although it didn't take long for the term to be used as one characterizing a lack of committment or position in a generic sense and concerning trivial issues, it wasn't widely used that way relative to uses closer to that of Huxley's for some time.

Such uses include:

1) A person who denies that nothing can (even in principle) be known of the immaterial, including God ("Our modern Sophists—the Agnostics,—those who deny we have any knowledge, save of phenomena." Mivart, 1874; "All these considerations, and the great controversies which suggest them, are in the highest degree cultivating, and will be admitted to be so even by those Agnostics who think them profitless of any practical result." May edition of Spectator, 1869)
2) The belief that the immaterial (including God) is uknowable ("The same agnostic principle which prevailed in our schools of philosophy had extended itself to religion and theology. Beyond what man can know by his senses or feel by his higher affections, nothing, as was alleged, could be truly known" Agnosticism in Weekly Scotsman; 1876)
3) Someone who is both skeptical in general and not committed to particular views, whether religious, political, or anything ideological ("Many worthy young persons who have been brought up on the sincere milk of agnostic politics" Syracuse Standard 1884; in reference to medical treatments for tuberculosis, "the only possible attitude with regard to them is at best an agnostic one" Lancet, 1891)

There is nothing intrinsic in agnosticism that permits a life unexamined: C.S Lewis, Bertrand Russell, Anthony Flew, Einstein, Freud, Sartre, Hume, and others did not arrive at their repsective views (theist, atheist, & agnostic) by simply deciding not to question. Nor did Huxley.

Personally, I think it's a bit of a shame that agnosticism has become more and more a postion of apathy, rather than uncertainty. Of ignorance via indifference rather than ignorance despite inquiry.

But to each their own, I suppose.
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Personally, I think it's a bit of a shame that agnosticism has become more and more a postion of apathy, rather than uncertainty. Of ignorance via indifference rather than ignorance despite inquiry.

But to each their own, I suppose.
Well, in a world full of spin, it's becoming more and more difficult to be still and make honest inquiry. I can't blame those who give up trying, given the circumstances.
 

Dayman

Member
As I said before, it's not apathy not ignorance nor indifference. It's just honesty. A lot of words change over time and right now agnostic is the only word for "I don't know". So it suits me fine.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, in a world full of spin, it's becoming more and more difficult to be still and make honest inquiry. I can't blame those who give up trying, given the circumstances.
True enough. After all, endless searching and seeking hasn't done me any favors. The doom of Tantalus, "forever in pursuit and I don't even know what I am chasing".

As I said before, it's not apathy not ignorance nor indifference. It's just honesty. A lot of words change over time and right now agnostic is the only word for "I don't know". So it suits me fine.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. What you said called to mind certain things I've thought about for some time.

And you're quite right about words. They do change. In fact, there are several names for several different types of changes (grammaticalization is the one which I think has fascinated me the most). It was not that you used the word "agnostic" in some "wrong" way, but quite the opposite. You said "we all know that we don't know", but that agnosticism is the recognition of this, and I don't encounter that way of understanding agnosticism much. I should have been clearer. I don't think I'd agree with the part about the honesty of agnosticism relative to believers (agnosticism can characterize one's inability to committ or incapcity to take a stance as much as it can one's honesty; as for believers, in my experience a good many question their beliefs more than most agnostics I've met), but as for the importance of questioning one's beliefs (even one's agnosticism)- that I do agree with. It just seems to me that most people who have identified themselves as agnostic don't do so because they do not know, but because they do not care.
 
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Dayman

Member
And i dont know that no one has spoken to "god" or however they would figure out life. but you definitely dont know that someone has. we have been arguing for centuries and look where we are. No where
 

Dayman

Member
Yeah a lot of people just don't care. A lot of people who dont care don't even know what agnostic means . But like another commenter said, its hard to blame them for it.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
True enough. After all, endless searching and seeking hasn't done me any favors. The doom of Tantalus, "forever in pursuit and I don't even know what I am chasing".



I wasn't disagreeing with you. What you said called to mind certain things I've thought about for some time.

And you're quite right about words. They do change. In fact, there are several names for several different types of changes (grammaticalization is the one which I think has fascinated me the most). It was not that you used the word "agnostic" in some "wrong" way, but quite the opposite. You said "we all know that we don't know", but that agnosticism is the recognition of this, and I don't encounter that way of understanding agnosticism much. I should have been clearer. I don't think I'd agree with the part about the honesty of agnosticism relative to believers (agnosticism can characterize one's inability to committ or incapcity to take a stance as much as it can one's honesty; as for believers, in my experience a good many question their beliefs more than most agnostics I've met), but as for the importance of questioning one's beliefs (even one's agnosticism)- that I do agree with. It just seems to me that most people who have identified themselves as agnostic don't do so because they do not know, but because they do not care.
From the 1983 movie, WarGames
[after playing out all possible outcomes for Global Thermonuclear War]
Joshua: Greetings, Professor Falken.
Stephen Falken: Hello, Joshua.
Joshua: A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?
 

LucifersLawyer

New Member
I don't care whether I'm called agnostic or atheist, my thinking is this:
I highly doubt the probability of god but can't deny the possibility.

*edit*
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Such uses include:

1) A person who denies that nothing can (even in principle) be known of the immaterial, including God ("Our modern Sophists—the Agnostics,—those who deny we have any knowledge, save of phenomena." Mivart, 1874; "All these considerations, and the great controversies which suggest them, are in the highest degree cultivating, and will be admitted to be so even by those Agnostics who think them profitless of any practical result." May edition of Spectator, 1869)
2) The belief that the immaterial (including God) is uknowable ("The same agnostic principle which prevailed in our schools of philosophy had extended itself to religion and theology. Beyond what man can know by his senses or feel by his higher affections, nothing, as was alleged, could be truly known" Agnosticism in Weekly Scotsman; 1876)
...
Good post, though, if I can throw in a pedantic quibble, perhaps supranatural would be a better term to rely on than immaterial, here, to express that area that the quote speaks of as "beyond what man can know by his senses or feel by his higher affections," since it's not the case that the immaterial cannot be known. Various ideas and concepts, determined by those "higher affections," such as shame, loyalty or promise for example, are immaterial and can hardly be said to be unknown.
 
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