Theweirdtophat
Well-Known Member
Sufis are pretty tolerant. You also have to consider culture. Muslims in Kazakhstan will usually be more tolerant than the ones in Egypt.
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Ahmadis - Muslims or not?
- Thread starter The Emperor of Mankind
- Start date
Sufis are pretty tolerant. You also have to consider culture. Muslims in Kazakhstan will usually be more tolerant than the ones in Egypt.
vaguelyhumanoid
Active Member
I get why some Muslims exclude Ahmadis but I wouldn't agree. Then again I don't follow an Abrahamic religion. To me, Ahmadis are one of the coolest Muslim sects along with Sufis.
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on all.
1= To believe a religion , first one has to believe in a perfect God Who guides.
Those who have doubt, they can always ask and pray to Allah what is reality of Ahmadis, since their claim is no small; that the Promised Reformer (as told by Islam and other major religions) to serve Allah, Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) and Islam has come.....Many have done such prayers and have been guided by the grace of God. [I have people in my family and outside who were guided by God clearly]......... My late (Marhoom) father was shown in dream in the time (and presence in dream of) of second Ahmadiyya Khalifah, who would be third and fourth Khalifah. In his dream, fifth Khalifah was shown as young boy but he did not know him........ Years latter it happened so. All Praises to Allah.
2= In 1908, when Hazrat Promised Messiah Mahdi (a.s.) passed away, his pious followers, Ahmadiyya Muslims were around 300,000 and they were present mainly in India.
3= In 2015, Ahmadiyya Muslim Community has progressed under the Fifth Khilafat of Hazrat Promised Messiah Mahdi (a.s.) by the grace of Allah the Exalted and it has reached in 207 countries of the world officially.
4= Allah does not let flourish a fasle which uses claim of fake revelation:
About Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) it was said as argumentative standard:
[69:45] And if he had forged and attributed any sayings to Us,
[69:46] We would surely have seized him by the right hand,
[69:48] And not one of you could have held Us off from him.
The following is the English rendering book of divine revelations, dreams and visions vouchsafed to Ahmadiyya Promised Messiah Mahdi (a.s.) It is not equal to or alternative of Holy Quran, these are revelations of Allah to him over the years till his last, to guide him how to understand Quran and Islam and then guide the world.
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Tadhkirah.pdf
1= To believe a religion , first one has to believe in a perfect God Who guides.
Those who have doubt, they can always ask and pray to Allah what is reality of Ahmadis, since their claim is no small; that the Promised Reformer (as told by Islam and other major religions) to serve Allah, Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) and Islam has come.....Many have done such prayers and have been guided by the grace of God. [I have people in my family and outside who were guided by God clearly]......... My late (Marhoom) father was shown in dream in the time (and presence in dream of) of second Ahmadiyya Khalifah, who would be third and fourth Khalifah. In his dream, fifth Khalifah was shown as young boy but he did not know him........ Years latter it happened so. All Praises to Allah.
2= In 1908, when Hazrat Promised Messiah Mahdi (a.s.) passed away, his pious followers, Ahmadiyya Muslims were around 300,000 and they were present mainly in India.
3= In 2015, Ahmadiyya Muslim Community has progressed under the Fifth Khilafat of Hazrat Promised Messiah Mahdi (a.s.) by the grace of Allah the Exalted and it has reached in 207 countries of the world officially.
4= Allah does not let flourish a fasle which uses claim of fake revelation:
About Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) it was said as argumentative standard:
[69:45] And if he had forged and attributed any sayings to Us,
[69:46] We would surely have seized him by the right hand,
[69:48] And not one of you could have held Us off from him.
The following is the English rendering book of divine revelations, dreams and visions vouchsafed to Ahmadiyya Promised Messiah Mahdi (a.s.) It is not equal to or alternative of Holy Quran, these are revelations of Allah to him over the years till his last, to guide him how to understand Quran and Islam and then guide the world.
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Tadhkirah.pdf
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DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
5=The Promised Messiah Mahdi (on whom be peace) wrote about his victory:
"O ye all people! listen that it His prophecy Who made the earth and heavens. He will spread this Jama'at of His in all countries. And will dominate them over everyone with arguments and proofs. The days are coming, but they are near when there will be only this mazhab (doctrine, religion) which will be remembered with honour. God will place blessing of extreme degree and beyond-normal in this mazhab and silsilah, and will fail everyone who thinks to finish it. This dominance will remain till ever till Qaiyamat will come. If they mock me now what is loss due to it? Because there is no Prophet who was not mocked. Thus it was an essential that Promised Messiah was mocked too, as Allah the Exalted says:
[ch36:v31] Alas for My servants! there comes not a Messenger to them but they mock at him.
Thus, from God, it is a sign that each Prophet is mocked. If such a man who descends from heavens in front of everyone, and accompanied by angels, who will mock him? Thus a wise can understand from this argument, that descending of Promised Messiah from the heavens is false thought. Remember no one will descend from heavens, our all opponents who are alive now, they all shall die and none among them will see Esa bin Maryam [Jeus a.s.] descending from heavens. And then their remaining progeny, it will die too and no person among them will see Esa bin Maryam descending from heavens. And then progeny of progeny will die and they too will not see son of Maryam descending from heavens. Then God will cause unrest in their hearts that the era of dominance of cross has been passed too and the world have come into another colour but the son of Maryam, Esa, has not descended from the heavens yet. Then the wise will be fed-up with this creed. And yet third century from day of today will not be completed that those who wait for Esa -- either Muslims or Christians -- will leave this false creed by becoming very hopeless and mistrustful. And there will be only one mazhab in the world, and only one guide. I have indeed come to sow the seed. Thus, from my hand that seed is sown. And it will grow now and develop and there is none who can stop it."
Ref: Tazkaratush shahadatain
"O ye all people! listen that it His prophecy Who made the earth and heavens. He will spread this Jama'at of His in all countries. And will dominate them over everyone with arguments and proofs. The days are coming, but they are near when there will be only this mazhab (doctrine, religion) which will be remembered with honour. God will place blessing of extreme degree and beyond-normal in this mazhab and silsilah, and will fail everyone who thinks to finish it. This dominance will remain till ever till Qaiyamat will come. If they mock me now what is loss due to it? Because there is no Prophet who was not mocked. Thus it was an essential that Promised Messiah was mocked too, as Allah the Exalted says:
[ch36:v31] Alas for My servants! there comes not a Messenger to them but they mock at him.
Thus, from God, it is a sign that each Prophet is mocked. If such a man who descends from heavens in front of everyone, and accompanied by angels, who will mock him? Thus a wise can understand from this argument, that descending of Promised Messiah from the heavens is false thought. Remember no one will descend from heavens, our all opponents who are alive now, they all shall die and none among them will see Esa bin Maryam [Jeus a.s.] descending from heavens. And then their remaining progeny, it will die too and no person among them will see Esa bin Maryam descending from heavens. And then progeny of progeny will die and they too will not see son of Maryam descending from heavens. Then God will cause unrest in their hearts that the era of dominance of cross has been passed too and the world have come into another colour but the son of Maryam, Esa, has not descended from the heavens yet. Then the wise will be fed-up with this creed. And yet third century from day of today will not be completed that those who wait for Esa -- either Muslims or Christians -- will leave this false creed by becoming very hopeless and mistrustful. And there will be only one mazhab in the world, and only one guide. I have indeed come to sow the seed. Thus, from my hand that seed is sown. And it will grow now and develop and there is none who can stop it."
Ref: Tazkaratush shahadatain
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Thank you dear friend YmirGF. If Ahmadis are not Muslims; why they say they are Muslims? It is a good point really.
Regards
outhouse
Atheistically
I wrote no.
But its 100% bias just because of the ability of one in this forum that refuses to communicate effectively.
outhouse
Atheistically
My thinking was similar.
To get an accurate result you should have excluded all muslims from voting, as the sectarian difference are so sharp, I'm not sure half would consider the other half of all muslims that exist a muslim.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Friend outhouse! Did you realize as to what you have written and acknowledged? Please
Regards
My position is similar.
I have however seem considerable evidence that this is a sensitive issue among Muslims, and not only when one considers the Ahmadi.
Shias and Sunnis don't always acknowledge each other as Muslims, and I feel that there is considerable passion involved.
From where I stand, it looks like that one of the consequences of the basic Muslim beliefs is that Muslims can hardly ever question each other beliefs respectfully: either they believe in the true God and the true last Prophet or they believe in false ones - or, worse still from (the average?) Muslim's perspective, they don't even hold misguided beliefs, presumably because they lack in love for God or for the Prophet.
Basically, telling someone who considers himself a Muslim that his beliefs are wrong is... very rude at the best of times, or so it seems to me.
Incidentally, I think the reverse direction deserves some attention as well. There are some indications that Ahmadi Muslims do not feel an excess of brotherhood towards their non-Ahmadi kin, although I am not quite sure about the extent and consequences of their strangement from Sunni and Shia (and perhaps Sufi as well?)
Riad Sattouf seems to believe that Sunnis specifically do not have the easiest of times thinking of Shias (or at least Alawites) as "true" Muslims, and the circunstantial evidence seems to support him.
Then again, what I have learned of Islam strongly hints that Muslims are not truly expected to give a lot of thought to religious diversity. The doctrine is very imperialistic, by design even. The whole point is to drive people away from obsolete beliefs, "false" beliefs and disbelief towards the central religious authorities of the Quran and of whoever the local leaders happen to be. It is no coincidence that its history has been so consistently repletel of conflict and confrontation.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I like your overall review/analysis.
Regards
I like the part that they denounce violence.
gnostic
The Lost One
That could change quickly, IF...and I must stressed "if"...IF Ahmadis ever become a majority, and if they political backing.
I am a bit of realist and a cynic here. IF the Ahmadiyya were to gain real power, they would change, because powers tends to corrupt those in powers.
At the moment, they are minority among the Sunnis and among the Shiites, so they have no powers. And while they don't have that power, they can still follow along the peaceful path, a path that had eluded Muhammad.
Muhammad didn't follow the peaceful path, because political and military powers were bestowed upon him, once he reached Medina. Powers have clearly corrupted Muhammad.
gnostic
The Lost One
Muslims, and I am referring to non-Ahmadi Muslims here, already view Jesus as the "messiah".
And as a messiah, Jesus was also a messenger and prophet of God.
If Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is claiming to be "messiah", isn't he technically claiming to be a prophet too.
I wouldn't argue with you if Ahmad had only claiming to be a "reformer". You can be a reformer without being a prophet.
BUT Ahmad didn't do that. He was claiming something bigger for himself - bigger than a reformer. He claimed to be The Messiah.
To the Jews, a messiah is supposed to be a prophet (or high priest) and a king, descendant of King David...so the messianic prophecy claimed. A king that supposed to reunite the 12 tribes of Israel, meaning a descendant of Jacob, son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham.
Christians claimed that Jesus was a descendant of David, but the claims of such ancestry or lineage are dubious at best. And Jesus was never a king.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is certainly not of King David's line, was certainly never king, and Ahmad never reunited the 12 tribes of Israel (Jacob's descendants).
Ahmad did nothing for the Jews, who were descendants of Judah, a son of Jacob, so for Jews, Mirza is simply another fake messiah.
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
@gnostic
"The advent of The Holy Prophet (Muhammad) is described metaphorically as the appearance of God Almighty. The Holy Prophet (Muhammad) became the mirror reflecting Divine Attributes. He was Al- Abd. The Holy Quran calls him Abdullah (72:20) -- The Servant of Allah.
For the latter days God in His Mercy sent us the servant of The Servant --- Ghulam Ahmad . Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani (Ahmad ) claimed to be The Promised Messiah and Mahdi. Ahmad claimed to be the metaphorical second coming of Jesus of Nazareth and the divine guide, whose advent was foretold by the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad" .
https://www.alislam.org/topics/messiah/
RegardsFor the latter days God in His Mercy sent us the servant of The Servant --- Ghulam Ahmad . Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani (Ahmad ) claimed to be The Promised Messiah and Mahdi. Ahmad claimed to be the metaphorical second coming of Jesus of Nazareth and the divine guide, whose advent was foretold by the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad" .
https://www.alislam.org/topics/messiah/
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
So why do the majority reject this claim. Surely if it is true, we read the same things you read, we would accept it as you would we not?
How about we look at all the verses and hadith regarding this matter and see how Mirza Ghulam stands against them. Are you up for a same faith debate?
gnostic
The Lost One
But you are forgetting that Jesus is a prophet, messenger and messiah - all rolled into one - according to mainstream Islam.
And as far as I can remember the Mahdi is never mentioned in the Qur'an, so Mahdi probably only exist in Islamic traditions, like in one of the hadiths.
Can any Muslims take any prophecy in the hadiths seriously, if it doesn't exist in the Qur'an?
gnostic
The Lost One
Debate it here, gharib, because I would be very interested to read what you both to have to say on the matter.
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
Ahmadiyya Muslims, but they follow a pious Muslim
They give a false Islam
That whoever believes in Mohammed believes his actions is Muslim
He wants to give the interpretation of the violator to content frank WEDDING
For this considered
They give a false Islam
That whoever believes in Mohammed believes his actions is Muslim
He wants to give the interpretation of the violator to content frank WEDDING
For this considered
@mahasn ebn sawresho : Unfortunately, your post is not very clear.
I take it that you disapprove of Ahmadiyya and consider it in some sense false and... something about weddings and marriages, perhaps? I suspect that there is some sort of translation trouble here.
Would you consider writing in Arabic or whatever your native language happens to be as well? It might help in getting a better grasp of what you mean. There are other forum members that just might help us in smoothing over the language trouble. Just a suggestion.
I take it that you disapprove of Ahmadiyya and consider it in some sense false and... something about weddings and marriages, perhaps? I suspect that there is some sort of translation trouble here.
Would you consider writing in Arabic or whatever your native language happens to be as well? It might help in getting a better grasp of what you mean. There are other forum members that just might help us in smoothing over the language trouble. Just a suggestion.